Correction - how tough should I be?

[sea4th]

If your dog does not respond as quickly to a command as you wish ( example - here, down, etc) how tough, stern is your correction? Cody was out on the hillside this morning. He has a little circuit he checks for chipmunks, rabbits and squirrals. I am out there with him - he is off leash. I expect him to move from one position to another on my command - something he usually does with no problem. On a double whistle blow I expect him to return to me immediately - again, something he is usually pretty good at. This morning he was chasing a rabbit to a wood pile. I double whisted - he blew me off. Did again, no response. Hiked down the hill with the leash - put him on a short leash and brought him in. Other than the short leash action and the march in - that was all of my correction. He seemed to know he had done something wrong. Should I have done something more?????? Thank you

 

To be off lead for any of my dogs is a privilege and they know it. In the situation you described, with one of my own dogs, I'd call them once, I'll call them a second time, a little louder. If I see they're distracted, I'll say something like "[dog's name], I'm talking to you". Usually they drop what they're doing and come to me. If they still don't respond, I will go after them. When I go after them, my body language says I'm pissed. Their ears flatten to the side and their body language then says "oh oh". If I have to walk over to them, I'll take them by the collar make them look at me and say something like, "didn't you hear me" or "SHAME on you" (this last one really gets them). Drama really drives the point home and I really don't need to use physical corrections. On a dog that knows better, if I slap the leash on them, they are really mortified, and I've found that that's enough punishment in and of itself -- to be taken down a notch in status.

 

All this said, I don't expect this out of a dog who doesn't know any better --- rescues, etc. Those I will work with, but my own, who know the drill, are the ones I'll take these measures with and if it means going back to square one, then so be it.

[Lenajo]

Dogs are more complex than the lemon brains we are currently being encouraged to think of them as by modern "science".

 

A dog is perfectly capable of saying "just a minute" as he is to decide that of the 2 choices, the recall is not the one he feels like doing. I know what "come here" means too but if you have me in pursuit of a fleeing chocholate rabbit I can tell you that I wouldn't even pause unless I thought you were serious. And that frankly would take several walk downs.

 

Yes dogs need training, and yes, dogs need real world/real life follow up to what they've been taught.

 

I would walk the dog down, be clear that I am not pleased with my tone and how I clip on the lead, then walk back. Then I would turn the dog loose and set it up all over again (with safety in mind, obviously you would not put a dog back in the street to make a training point).

 

 

 

 

I would say that this is one interpretation. I however, see it as a dog not fully understanding what is expected of it. She's probably been "corrected" before and is unsure how to proceed, as she never really knows what she got "corrected" for.

"He blew me off" puts the blame on the dog and that's not fair. You have not taught the dog to come to you with a distraction as large as a fleeing bunny. This is on you, not the dog. He doesn't need to be corrected, he needs to be taught.

[juliepoudrier]

I know what "come here" means too but if you have me in pursuit of a fleeing chocholate rabbit I can tell you that I wouldn't even pause unless I thought you were serious. And that frankly would take several walk downs.

And if I were there running around with Wendy, you'd probably have to break up the ensuing fight over the chocolate rabbit on top of it all!

 

J.

[Lenajo]

ROFL

 

GRRRRRRRR...My Wabbit!!

[Liz P]

When we go to an off leash area or to work stock I have the same routine with the dogs. On leash I ask that they not pull, no matter how excited they are, and that they lie down instantly on command. If they pull we turn around and walk back about 5 to 10 feet, I ask for a down, and if they obey we walk forward again. Repeat as needed. Even if they are not pulling I ask for a down while we are walking at least 10 times before they are released from their leash. If a particular dog is not obeying that dog does not get turned loose.

 

During the walk itself I ask for downs and recalls on a regular basis. If we see another dog I ask for a down until I give a release command (after I have watched to make sure the other dog is friendly). If one of my dogs ignores several commands during the course of the walk, that dog goes back on a leash for a period of time, or the remainder of the walk. I don't yell at the dog or make a fuss about it, just put the leash back on and remain neutral. While on the leash the dog may earn freedom by not pulling, laying down when asked and obeying any commands I chose to give.

 

If your dog is not yet at the stage that it will listen fairly reliably you can use a long line (50ft nylon rope) for practice.

 

Being off leash is a privilege my dogs must earn on a daily basis.

[Sue R]

And if I were there running around with Wendy, you'd probably have to break up the ensuing fight over the chocolate rabbit on top of it all!

 

J.

Ah, but while you two fight, I will run off and eat the rabbit! Chocolate does not stand a chance with me around.

[Root Beer]

Dogs are more complex than the lemon brains we are currently being encouraged to think of them as by modern "science".

 

I guess it all depends on what brand of science one studies.

 

Everything about the kind of behavior science that I've studied in conjunction with my dog training endeavours indicates that the dog is, in fact, much more complex than we have been led to believe by mainstream dog "experts". Complex when it comes to emotions, complex in ability to address different mental challenges, and complex in ability to make a choice between two options.

 

Of course, taking into account that dogs aren't humans in dog suits, either!! That, after all would be anthropomorphism.

 

In fact, that same science backs up the fact that the dog might not respond for a number of reasons - lack of understanding of the directive is one possibility, so is high stress, so is too high of a level of stimulation, and so is the possibility that the dog might simply be choosing to do something else (typically labelled "blowing off").

 

Personally I don't use the phrase "blowing off" to describe a dog who chooses to do something else instead of respond to a recall (just my personal choice for my own personal reasons), nor do I use corrections to handle a recall (again, my personal choice for my own personal reasons). All the same, I'm 100% certain that the dog has a very complex brain and does, indeed, make choices all day long.

 

In fact, incorporating the dog's choices into training is one of the most fun parts!! I'd ask what particular science indicates that dogs don't make choices, but frankly I'd be too bored by that to bother checking into it!!

[Journey]

Chocolate? Did someone mention chocolate? That poor chocolate bunny doesn't stand a chance, of course he still may get away as you're about to have a rolling bitch fight Talk about being blown off, toss chocolate into the picture and see what happens!

[Debbie Meier]

I have an offical blow off artist, she is handy as heck on stock as long as you are in agreement with her, and if you ask something against her desires she might actually consider, pause, appear to weight the options and then take off happily as if to say Nahhh, my way is right. I sware she actually flips her tail at me... Witch...

 

Deb

[Ooky]

Personally, I feel that when we think a dog is 'blowing us off' they either don't understand what we want or feel they have a choice. Usually if they understand what we want they will comply-usually=)

 

Yep - I totally agree -- or overstimulation -- almost all the time, if Odin does not do what I say it is one of those 3.

 

However, when he is off leash and farther away from me than about 5 ft, he DOES have a choice. That's just the physical fact of the matter. I think he's smart enough to know it, too. My family had one dog who wasn't very smart, but was a very good dog in a lot of ways because I think she often did not realize she had a choice in a lot of stuff she actually did, like recalls. Her responses almost seemed like elaborate muscle memory in comparison.

 

Odin definitely analyzes - at least sometimes. Both whether he does have a choice and what that choice should be. I also think the word malicious is way too dramatic to ascribe to any dog's motivations, and I would never ascribe it to Odin even if I do think he occasionally blows me off. In the totally lame anthropomorphized dialog I imagine him thinking in, he never sounds like an a$$hole Or evil, like Benway does :D

 

Odin can be very deliberate and mindful in his actions, which implies a kind of forethought. Does this mean he analyzes like a human? Depends on what you mean, I would say. Exactly like a human - obviously not. But we do, as mammals, have similar brains and similar base processes within those brains. So I also don't understand what modern "science" people are talking about - and what is a lemon brain?

 

What I like about my theory is that so much of the time, especially when it really matters, he chooses me over the proverbial chocolate bunny. And I also think I would prefer him capable of a *little* free thought, especially if he were to be right about something and I wrong. I go camping and hiking a lot, and it's a trait that could be useful to me there (again, if he was RIGHT) as well as hopefully stockwork someday too.

 

It sounds to me like you have 'trained' Odin that being in close proximity to you is what you mean when you command him to come(come means get somewhere near Mom). You might want to make a come mean that he needs to get close enough for you to be able to get your hands on him. I would always take hold his collar and praise and pet him, then give him a treat and release him to go play again. This makes it very black and white to him.

 

You are right again, I think. Outside, or far away, from a stay, and with distractions he definitely knows what "here" is supposed to mean - come straight to me, face me, and sit until released. But you made me remember I switched that command word and added a hand signal only later, after he already had an ok-ish recall based on "come" with no formal signal. I stopped that so later I could properly train "come by". But I bet I never retaught the new recall inside, just continued training him with steadily increasing expectations. I like Liz's idea with the food - I think I'll try that!

[Shetlander]

Duchess ( more of my husband's dog - she adores him but comes to me for comforting) is the most blow you off dog I have ever seen around the house. She will look right at you and "decide" whether she is going to comply. The other night we came home and she ( we know it was not Cody) opened the kitchen cabinet- pulled the garbage can out and had a feast. My husband was livid. He pulled her in to the kitchen and reprimanded her. She went under the bed for about 10 minutes (about the time it took me to clean it up) then came prancing out without a care in the world.

 

Sounds like she came out when she figured it was safe to leave cover.

 

This story made me think of the way my obedience instructor will assess dogs. She looks at both physical and emotional toughness. So she described Quinn as physically tough but emotionally soft. My Sheltie is definitely physically and emotionally soft. And then there is the Lhasa who the instructor said was so tough physically and emotionally that he has a hard time understanding punishment. He can't prance but he will bounce around, doing tricks, literally seconds after being corrected. Fortunately, he is a smart, food-motivated little monster and thrives on clicker training. Positive reinforcement is the most effective and efficient way to train and make an impression on him.