Correction - how tough should I be?

[Cody & Duchess]

If your dog does not respond as quickly to a command as you wish ( example - here, down, etc) how tough, stern is your correction? Cody was out on the hillside this morning. He has a little circuit he checks for chipmunks, rabbits and squirrals. I am out there with him - he is off leash. I expect him to move from one position to another on my command - something he usually does with no problem. On a double whistle blow I expect him to return to me immediately - again, something he is usually pretty good at. This morning he was chasing a rabbit to a wood pile. I double whisted - he blew me off. Did again, no response. Hiked down the hill with the leash - put him on a short leash and brought him in. Other than the short leash action and the march in - that was all of my correction. He seemed to know he had done something wrong. Should I have done something more?????? Thank you

[nancy in AZ]

He seemed to know he had done something wrong. Should I have done something more?????? Thank you

 

You may find this enlightening.

 

http://www.livescience.com/animals/090611-guilty-dogs.html

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I might be wrong here, but if he's a sensitive dog, that's all I'd do. Personally. My dog is very sensitive and all she needs is something like that. Or if I am working in close with her, some pressure from my body language or an Ahht is all it takes.

BUT, is chasing a rabbit something he will always call off of? Has he done it before reliably every time? If not, I'd work on the recall a bit more. A running rabbit is a pretty serious distraction.

[Shetlander]

Trying to correct a failed recall is tricky, even with a dog who isn't sensitive. Of course, you never want to correct if the dog comes to you, even if he does so slowly or after ignoring a recall. I will do a walk down when a dog ignores me. It isn't fun for the dog and usually that is the only "correction." When I get my hands on the dog, I'm almost always very neutral with him. If I'm out of sorts, I might give a brief scold but I think that is probably counter productive.

 

Then (and this is the important part for me), I make it a point to work on recalls. Some remedial training on what the command means. Then some more advanced training on doing recalls in the face of distractions. I was just reading somewhere about a person who specifically trained her dog to call off very exciting distractions -- starting with very low reward ones and working up to the most exciting.

 

Of all my dogs, Quinn has the least reliable recall. I'm not sure why this is (well, other than the fact I haven't trained him well enough and I've been lazy about fine tuning the command) compared to my other dogs who have all been great through the years. Something about my basic method of raising and training dogs just didn't translate quite as well to him as far as his recall.

 

I also agree with Nancy that submissive, appeasing behaviors are often misread as "he knew he was wrong" or "he knew better." I can't say if your dog understood he was being leashed due to a failed recall. I'm guessing both the strangeness of the situation (being leashed and brought in) and your body language, even if you stayed calm, gave him some cause to think calming signals/submissive behaviors were a good idea right then.

[juliepoudrier]

I think I would have given a voice correction ("Hey!" or "Aahht!" or even a "Do.You.Hear.Me?") said in a "whaddyathinkyerdoing!" kind of voice after the first blow off and then walked him down after the second blow off. Sometimes they're so engrossed in something they forget themselves but a correction word will make them tune back in and then they will respond to that second request, at least IME (and of course this presumes that the dog has learned some sort of correction word during its training).

 

J.

[MicheleS.]

Chase isn't as reliable as I'd like him to be on a recall. Sometimes he just doesn't want to come in the house. I never miss an opportunity to praise when he comes on the first call. If he doesn't come the first time, I do what Julie mentioned, I walk him down. Initially that pushed him out further but I never say anything, just walk towards him, not mad, not happy, just walk him down. We don't have too many walk-downs anymore. Now it's more like he stands there and waits for me to see if I'm going to follow through on the walk down (and I always do whether it's cold, raining, muddy), he doesn't walk away from me anymore. All I have to do is touch his collar with the non-emotional command to come and he follows me, which I praise for.

Chase is very sensitive.

[Ooky]

I also wouldn't correct that except for a verbal correction, and Odin isn't particularly soft. But by the time you get your hands on a dog that's done this, it seems to me the time for corrections is over. If you continue correcting after the first sharp HEY or whatever, it 1) seems like nagging and 2) wouldn't personally make me want to come.

 

I also short leash Odin all the time for various reasons that have nothing to do with his behavior and don't want him thinking it's a punishment, so we never treat it that way.

 

The weird thing is, I've got Odin doing well with outside distractions like running deer and other dogs, and coming to me from far away. But I've come to realize that if I only call him from like 15 feet away and he's off leash, and we're inside, he's much more likely to blow me off. Who knows what he's really thinking, but to me it seems like he doesn't get the point. He looks at me like, "What do you mean 'here'? I AM here." I guess I need to get out the training line again and start retraining his close in, I-don't-care-if-you-see-the-point-or-not recall.

 

Luckily, our off-leash city training is going really well and he does seem to realize that walking in urban areas with traffic does NOT equal a situation where he can blow off a short-distance recall. Nor does he really seem to want to. Again, realizing I'm putting human emotions on him, he seems proud to be trusted in these situations. Whatever is going through his mind, I'm beginning to see just how in tune to specific situations these dogs are!

[Shetlander]

But I've come to realize that if I only call him from like 15 feet away and he's off leash, and we're inside, he's much more likely to blow me off. Who knows what he's really thinking, but to me it seems like he doesn't get the point. He looks at me like, "What do you mean 'here'? I AM here."

 

I've touched up Quinn's recall a couple of times by using meal times as a refresher for "Here," using part of his meal to call him several times back and forth through the house. After 2 or 3 meals doing this, I've seen much better response to a recall both inside and outside. Almost like he's saying "Well, why didn't you just tell me it was so important to you?"

[Emma H]

I gotta say, I rather dislike the phrase "he blew me off" as this implies some thought process and possibly some malicious intent. The dog is telling you that his recall is not proofed enough to test it in the presence of fleeing bunnies. Set up some REALLY distracting environments for the dogs and teach him that no matter what, you are going to be much more rewarding than his environment. If you don't have the time or will to do this, don't call him when he chases a rabbit.

[juliepoudrier]

Hmmm...if I'm working sheep and I give a command my dog doesn't take, I most certainly do consider the dog to have blown me off, no malicious intent implied, just instinct overriding obedience, but still blowing me off....

 

J.

[Carson Crazies]

I gotta say, I rather dislike the phrase "he blew me off" as this implies some thought process and possibly some malicious intent.

 

While there may not be any malicious intent (and I don't think that's a prerequisite for blowing the human off) I think these dogs are capable of some reasonably complex thought processes. I think they're capable of simply deciding not to do something (and in the case of working stock my dog is often right).

 

I might would have used a verbal correction, and then have reissued the command. Had he not taken it the second time I would have walked him down, yes. I wouldn't necessarily assume that he was acting like he knew better- my guess would be he knew you were unhappy but might not have known exactly why. The strength of my correction might be tempered by how much they've been pushing the envelope, too.

[Debbie Meier]

If your dog does not respond as quickly to a command as you wish ( example - here, down, etc) how tough, stern is your correction? Cody was out on the hillside this morning. He has a little circuit he checks for chipmunks, rabbits and squirrals. I am out there with him - he is off leash. I expect him to move from one position to another on my command - something he usually does with no problem. On a double whistle blow I expect him to return to me immediately - again, something he is usually pretty good at. This morning he was chasing a rabbit to a wood pile. I double whisted - he blew me off. Did again, no response. Hiked down the hill with the leash - put him on a short leash and brought him in. Other than the short leash action and the march in - that was all of my correction. He seemed to know he had done something wrong. Should I have done something more?????? Thank you

 

Sorry for coming in late again...this week has been nuts!!

 

Just thinking about what you did to correct him, you will not know if it was enough until the next time your try to recall him. If he recalls, especially in a real distracting situation then you know it was enough. The rule of thumb I go by is that you have to do enough to get change, but you won't know if you have change until the situation comes about again. So identify the trouble spots, make a mental note of what you did last time and then wait to see if change was made, if not go deeper (don't repeat the identical same process, it didn't work) when you correct the next time.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

 

Deb

[Lizmo]

I think I would have given a voice correction ("Hey!" or "Aahht!" or even a "Do.You.Hear.Me?") said in a "whaddyathinkyerdoing!" kind of voice after the first blow off and then walked him down after the second blow off. Sometimes they're so engrossed in something they forget themselves but a correction word will make them tune back in and then they will respond to that second request, at least IME (and of course this presumes that the dog has learned some sort of correction word during its training).

 

J.

 

I would have done the same thing with my dog. He is sensitive to correction, too.

[ziggzmom]

Hi,

 

Personally, I feel that when we think a dog is 'blowing us off' they either don't understand what we want or feel they have a choice. Usually if they understand what we want they will comply-usually=)

 

It sounds to me like you have 'trained' Odin that being in close proximity to you is what you mean when you command him to come(come means get somewhere near Mom). You might want to make a come mean that he needs to get close enough for you to be able to get your hands on him. I would always take hold his collar and praise and pet him, then give him a treat and release him to go play again. This makes it very black and white to him.

 

Janet

 

 

The weird thing is, I've got Odin doing well with outside distractions like running deer and other dogs, and coming to me from far away. But I've come to realize that if I only call him from like 15 feet away and he's off leash, and we're inside, he's much more likely to blow me off. Who knows what he's really thinking, but to me it seems like he doesn't get the point. He looks at me like, "What do you mean 'here'? I AM here." I guess I need to get out the training line again and start retraining his close in, I-don't-care-if-you-see-the-point-or-not recall.

[Cody & Duchess]

Thanks for all the input - sometimes I worry that I am more of the silent- giving a look type of owner. I have been working on the recall since posting - calling him to me, praising him and then letting him go back to what he was doing.... so far so good. I do have a correction - more like a ack ( like the sound a car makes when you try to start it and it is already started). Stupid me just never thought of using it when he wasn't doing the recall. I use it when he is supposed to wait ( which means stop and stand) sometimes he get bored and starts to stroll. Thats when the ack comes in. Almost always works. The "blowing us off" issue - I do feel that dogs sometimes blow us off. Duchess ( more of my husband's dog - she adores him but comes to me for comforting) is the most blow you off dog I have ever seen around the house. She will look right at you and "decide" whether she is going to comply. The other night we came home and she ( we know it was not Cody) opened the kitchen cabinet- pulled the garbage can out and had a feast. My husband was livid. He pulled her in to the kitchen and reprimanded her. She went under the bed for about 10 minutes (about the time it took me to clean it up) then came prancing out without a care in the world. On the trail she is really well behaved, at home it is a battle of the wills between her and DH. Just hope the she and Cody don't compare notes on how they should behave.

[Emma H]

She will look right at you and "decide" whether she is going to comply.

I would say that this is one interpretation. I however, see it as a dog not fully understanding what is expected of it. She's probably been "corrected" before and is unsure how to proceed, as she never really knows what she got "corrected" for.

"He blew me off" puts the blame on the dog and that's not fair. You have not taught the dog to come to you with a distraction as large as a fleeing bunny. This is on you, not the dog. He doesn't need to be corrected, he needs to be taught.

[Amelia]

"If your dog does not respond as quickly to a command as you wish ( example - here, down, etc) how tough, stern is your correction?"

 

My answer to this is that it depends completely on the dog. Some can take more correction and some are so sensitive that all I have to do is say their name. But, based on the occurence you describe, leashing him was probably not an effective correction, because it happened too late.

 

"This morning he was chasing a rabbit to a wood pile."

 

I don't allow my dogs to chase things and it's something they learn from the time they are wee ones. You allow this behavior and it sounds like this dog was in high chase. It may have been asking a lot for him to call it quits in that state. If I allowed my dogs to chase things, I would have waited until the chase had ended, just to be fair.

 

"Hiked down the hill with the leash - put him on a short leash and brought him in. "

 

And were you angry by the time you got there? Did you hold a grudge all the way back? Because if so, dogs don't interpret that message the way we intend for them to. Dogs don't hold grudges and they don't understand ours. For a correction to be effective, it must be immediate at the time of the offense, and in my experience, it is best given short and sharp and then forgotten.

 

At the time the dog blew you off the first time, you could have given him a verbal correction then tried the whistle again. By not correcting and continuing to blow the whistle you simply teach him to ignore you. If he blew me off again after the correction and second whistle, I would have gotten closer to give another correction and another whistle. If you were angry by the time you got to him, I'm sure he knew he was wrong, but probably had no idea why, so he likely learned something, but not what you intended. If I were him, I would have thought all of sudden it was wrong to chase a rabbit and I would have been very confused.

 

If he is good about recalling most of the time, but just messed up in high chase, I would brush up on your recalls close at hand. I would practice them just to remind him and call it good.

 

 

Cheers all

[Jedismom]

I gotta say, I rather dislike the phrase "he blew me off" as this implies some thought process and possibly some malicious intent. The dog is telling you that his recall is not proofed enough to test it in the presence of fleeing bunnies. Set up some REALLY distracting environments for the dogs and teach him that no matter what, you are going to be much more rewarding than his environment. If you don't have the time or will to do this, don't call him when he chases a rabbit.

 

I agree that you need to proof your recall, and that it is not solid unless it is done in different environments and situations. But how in the world do I make myself more rewarding than a fleeing bunny, to a hunting breed with a huge prey drive, like my dog Cadi? Being able to work sheep is the ultimate reward to a bc like Jedi. How do I make myself more rewarding than that? I really want to know because I have heard it before in training, that I need to be the most fun thing out there, but the reality is I'm not. They need to listen to me anyway, and sometimes that means a verbal correction, walking them down, or ending the activity. JMO..

[Cody & Duchess]

I respectfully disagree. One - I think dogs have different temperments. Some dogs love to please, some dogs I would discribe as willful. Cody wants to please - therefore my concern about the appropriate level of correction. Duchess is willful, way to smart , loyal and a handful. Does she know what is being asked of her - I believe absolutely. I also believe that sometimes she decides she is going to do exactly what she wants. Again- this is in a limited environment- at home. Have we contributed to her willful way - absolutely.

[PSmitty]

I gotta disagree with those who say dogs don't blow us off, that it's a case of them just not understanding what is being asked of them. I mean, this is true at times with a dog who is not 100% trained, but I also believe that dogs make a decision whether to comply with a command or not. Is there "malicious intent"? No, but they are capable of making a choice and unfortunately it's sometimes not the one we want.

[juliepoudrier]

Agreed Paula. And of course there are those of us who want our dogs to think for themselves at times (like when working) and for whom a dog's "blowing one off" is common vernacular because we do recognize that the dogs have a choice--every time--whether to comply. In general, we want them to comply to commands, but when we give a bad command, we also hope that the dog "blows us off" and save our a$$ at the same time. That's not to say that we don't expect them to be obedient to commands, but that they also know they have choices and can make a decision to respond, right or wrong. I think it's just a different training mindset.

 

J.

[Cody & Duchess]

Paula- you said it much better than I did. Thanks

[PSmitty]

Paula- you said it much better than I did. Thanks

 

That's because my Lilly sounds a lot like your Duchess. I get it.

[sea4th]

I gotta say, I rather dislike the phrase "he blew me off" as this implies some thought process

 

Huh? Dogs don't have thought processes?

[juliepoudrier]

I suppose not if you subscribe to the "lemon brain" theories....

 

J.