Jump to content
BC Boards

Traditional Method


Pam Wolf
 Share

Recommended Posts

OK, there seems to be some debate over what is the "Traditional Method" of stock dog training. Just what is the Traditional Method that I hear so many new trainers complaining about?

 

Is it a round pen, is it a long line, is it a large field with backup dog? Just what is Traditional method stockdog training?

 

Thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 87
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

As has already been stated in this thread ad nauseum the traditional method involves letting the dog start out by gathering and balancing, be that in a round pen or on 1,000 acres with a backup dog to contain the sheep. I think you can look at the training techniques of any of the big hats: Alasdair MacRae, Jack and Kathy Knox, Bill Berhow, Derek Scrimgeour, Julie Simpson, etc. (all of whom have either published works or give clinics so that their methods are widely distributed among us) and understand that most people consider their methods traditional, and their methods involve starting a young dog as I've already stated. I think it's pretty clear from this discussion that most people don't consider putting a dog on a lead and teaching it flanks while it walks behind the sheep to be a traditional method. Heck, even Kathy describes her method as "revolutionary," which would certainly mean she doesn't consider it traditional. Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All I can say is that I'm feeling old..... how many times has this "revolutionary" rope training thing come up in the last 15- 20 years? It's worse than bell bottoms and blue eye make up.

 

The sad thing is each and every time it comes up it becomes instantly popular with at least one group of trainers and trainees. The ones that succeed with it would have succeeded without it - they have good timing, stock and dog sense. Those that don't have those skills fail miserably by at best creating mechanical and dull dogs that trial miserably and work worse. They eventually give up because they can't "get a good dog", or they start letting the dog actually think and work as it was bred too.

 

There is also a huge difference between putting a drag line on a dog to *enforce* training, and keeping a rope in your hand to *force* training. Just about anybody can do the first, and very few can do the later without ruining the dog.

 

What's "traditional training"? Well, it starts with actually letting the dog work the sheep. There have always been subsets with different methods but by far most people used the dog and trained it as they went along.

 

Julie's right about this discussion being ad nauseum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Pam, and sorry guys, I didn't mean to give you guys headaches. I honestly don't know, is it being carried over from those that started in ASCA or AKC and then came over the USBCHA? Is it the method of just letting the dog to learn totally on it's own, if it learns the right things great, if not it's a wash out? It comes down to that we have not been around long enough to know how things use to be and Julie mentioning that trainers used to get pretty physical made me think that maybe that is what is being referred to. I'm sorry to have even posed the question and thought originally...I know keep your thoughts on planet Deb, Deb!!!

 

Deb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I honestly don't know, is it being carried over from those that started in ASCA or AKC and then came over the USBCHA? Is it the method of just letting the dog to learn totally on it's own, if it learns the right things great, if not it's a wash out?

Deb

 

Just because a trainer doesn't micromanage a dog for every step doesn't mean they leave the dog to sink or swim. Good trainers still set the dog up so that the right things are the easiest choice, and then proof the dog and correct as needed when he knows what is expected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Deb,

If you'd look at the books or videos of the folks I mentioned earlier in this thread and perhaps attend (as an auditor) a clinic put on by someone like Jack or Kathy Knox, I think it would become pretty clear what most of us mean when we speak of traditional training methods (I'm sure the techniques of the various trainers differ on the finer points, but they all base their training on the same foundation work). I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas from. I mentioned that at one time some old timers thought it necessary to beat a dog to make it work for them and suddenly you think that's what is being referred to as traditional, despite every example posted to the contrary about what people consider traditional. Clearly beating a dog has nothing to do with actually training it for stockwork--it has do to with the (misguided) perception that you must "master" the dog before it will work well for you. Often dogs that were beaten in this manner were already trained and had just been bought by a someone, who then needed to assert his dominance over the dog (according to the thinking of the time). So really, even the dogs that were beaten at some point were also started in the normal way of letting the dog go to sheep and do small gathers and balance, etc. I apologize if my comments on that subject confused you--I made the mistake of assuming that most folks would know what I was referring to, but I realize that you haven't been part of the working border collie community all that long and so the whole comment was probably out of context for you. Hopefully I've cleared it up now.

 

Traditional training does NOT mean letting the dog work stock and learn completely on its own, and I don't know where you got that idea either. No one has said on the other thread or in other training discussions on this forum that the dog is just turned loose to figure things out and if it doesn't figure it out then it's a washout. Every training discussion we have on this forum centers on the human using pressure and release to help shape the dog's training, while using the dog's natural instincts. The objection to the line (when used to start dogs/students per Kathy K's method) is that it prevents the dog from using it's innate stock sense to do anything and in fact allows the clueless, newbie human to completely interfere with whatever natural working inclination the dog might have.

 

And before any of you come along and say something like, well so and so says he's changed his methods over the years, let me say that sure, people change how they do things, but they still start with the basics. You can compare Derek Scrimgeour's first DVD with his later DVD and see that he's modified his methods some, BUT the foundation/basics are still pretty much the same. Put the dog on stock, help it go around if it's not inclined to do so and then work on balance, etc. All with using body/voice pressure and release.

 

And I'm sure you'll be grateful to know that I'm done addressing the topic of what's traditional. I've come to the conclusion that some folks just won't (or don't want to) get it.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't say anything about micromanaging, and I'm not assuming that a person that does not micromanage does not help the dog, I didn't say any of that, you guys are making assumptions just like assuming that I don't let my dogs learn on their own, I just try my best to set up positive situations so I can help insure that they learn the right thing, that's not micromanaging, yeah I might overthink and micromanage my brain, but I try not to do that to my dog. I'm asking they could be referring to the flat out sink or swim method, if the dog does not come by it totally naturally and maintain it on their own they are not worth having. I don't think any of us operate under that premise, I think everyone here will help a dog to find the right path if they stumble down the wrong one, but was that once a common practice, culling by make or break? I'm not trying to call anyone out or to make anyone think that this about them, I'm just trying to figure out for certain what the trainers that are saying that they do not follow traditional methods mean by that or could mean by that.

 

Ok, I get it Julie you have your idea, it's being pounded into my head, that's fine, but does that mean your right about what is going on in someone else head? No, your just right about what is going on in your head, and no, I'm not just going to conform to you and jump on your bandwagon because you said so. How do you know what Kathy or Marc or anyone else that has made that statement meant, it almost sounds like you are taking it as if it is about you. I've worked with Marc, and I'm just not sure, I never questioned it until now, and used this as an opportunity to ask, I guess I should not have done it. I guess it could just be a buzz phrase, it certainly get's people charged up, or maybe it just flat out means they are doing something different, different is not a bad thing, some people need different.

 

As far as the books, some of them are on my shelf and I go back and reference them, I have attended other clinics and realize that things that didn't makes sense when I went to them was due to me not understanding what I was trying to accomplish in some cases and in at least one had a premise poorly demonstrated and explained. Have I gone to a lot of them, no, I'm not sure that chasing after different clinicianers is the answer either. Besides, I don't think going to more clinics is going to make me think like you, I'm still going to be me and think like me.

 

Deb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whatever you say Debbie. I don't think I've ever implied that I was clairvoyant--I'm just reporting what I've observed, because YOU and Pam asked what the traditional method was. If you don't like my answer, fine, but that doesn't mean it's the WRONG answer or that I require you to jump on any bandwagon. I personally don't care how YOU to choose to train your dogs--that wasn't even the topic of the discussion. YOU asked the question--if you don't like the answer, that's not my problem. I would have no idea what Marc meant about anything (note I didn't include him in my list), but I have actually been to clinics under some of the folks I mentioned; read the books, watched the DVDs, and yes, even *talked to* some of the overseas handlers, so despite what you'd like to think I'm not just talking out of my ass. I'm not saying you need to chase different clinicians--I was simply pointing out that if you watched these folks (the ones I mentioned) start dogs, you'd see a lot of commonalities and so could perhaps infer that those commonalities were part of what is considered the traditional method. Good grief!

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Deb wrote:

 

I honestly don't know, is it being carried over from those that started in ASCA or AKC and then came over the USBCHA? Is it the method of just letting the dog to learn totally on it's own, if it learns the right things great, if not it's a wash out? It comes down to that we have not been around long enough to know how things use to be

 

I think this may be where the disconnect occurs. By your own admission, you've not 'been around long enough' and I think it speaks volumes that you are not familiar with what most of the people on the board would consider the traditional method of starting a sheepdog. I think Julie summed it up pretty well. In addition, I believe you've also stated that you've not had working Border Collies all that long? You've not trialed all that much, yet you are dead solid convinced that your way of training is the way to go? Based on what may I ask? I guess I could see where you were coming from had you tried the traditional way of starting a dog, been a bust, went to your new revolutionary way, and ended up at the finals ;-) but I don't think thats the case. It sounds as if you've never even tried starting a dog the way most of us would, so how can you be so sure? And before you or anyone starts to think I'm being mean ;-) I'm really not. I consider myself a novice as well, and am stumbling along just like a lot of folks, I do hope to be running in Open next year. I admit to going with the 'traditional method' of starting/training a dog, and while I try to stay open to different thoughts and techniques, ways, of training, it's my opinion that you still need to stay with the basic core principal of letting the dog's natural instincts, for lack of a better word, Flow, and you, as a handler "help" (not control) mold and channel those instincts into the end product of a working, "thinking", stockdog.

 

Betty

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it's my opinion that you still need to stay with the basic core principal of letting the dog's natural instincts, for lack of a better word, Flow, and you, as a handler "help" (not control) mold and channel those instincts into the end product of a working, "thinking", stockdog

 

Hey, I agree!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, I think you missed the point that I was asking: WHAT about traditional training methods these neo-trainers disliked? I know what you jerks think :rolleyes: Perhaps I phrased it poorly.

 

But what is it about traditional methods that isn't good? Is it because these methods treat stock work not as a game. That 'traditional' trainers think of stock as "LIVE"? Is it that these 'traditional' techniques might require a dog actually have some instinct? I have yet to see a neo-trainer's technique that hasn't been done before. Sometimes it is like Orwell's 1984, they add some 'gimmick' that in reality doesn't change much if any, or they completely misunderstand that the 'traditional' training is about- stock WORK.

 

Why do these neo-trainers think EVERY dog should "Get out and chase the sheepies"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why do these neo-trainers think EVERY dog should "Get out and chase the sheepies"?

Ha! I teach at a university--lots of freshman composition. So my answer would be: for the same reason every parent thinks their little darling child is college material!

A

Admittedly jaded and cynical after having just finished the academic year at a (California) state-subsidized school

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, I think you missed the point that I was asking: WHAT about traditional training methods these neo-trainers disliked? I know what you jerks think :rolleyes: Perhaps I phrased it poorly.

 

I think they dislike that it's not all-positive, and that it doesn't follow (or at least invoke) the new and improved scientific principles of learning theory. Or maybe they just want to vaguely say their method is not like those other ole outdated methods as a marketing gimmick, so you'll want to try their slick new one. But how would I know? I'm just one of the jerks. :D You need to ask the neos.

 

How do you know what Kathy or Marc or anyone else that has made that statement meant,

 

If you mean what they meant by "traditional methods," we at least know that Kathy meant the same as Julie:

 

I forgot to add this comment...that yes, I agree with Julie in the definition of traditional...well put!

 

Kathy

 

It's just a shorthand term, Deb, made up to keep from having to spell out all the elements of, well, the training approach that the trainers Julie listed (and many others) use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm gonna go out on a limb or maybe a quick ride on Deb's short spaceship :rolleyes:

I started with Marc C. I stayed with him for probably 2 years give or take. I, nor my little not much instinct dog made much progress. Funny thing is she never did learn to drive sheep, which if you look at the video, it gives a image that the dog is actually driving. But really, the dog is following not driving unless you can drive from the backseat.

 

I might compare it to taking theory in piano without actually learning how to play piano. You might know the principals but try setting down to the keyboard and playing a tune, it'll leave you high and dry.

 

We were however safe with that method (the line thing very similar to the method that Dricina was trying to do).

I finally made the leap, got a better dog (after several attempts and mistakes) got out in the "traditional world" of dog training and whoa, low and behold started making progress.

 

So I speak from both sides of the planet. I prefer the one that I am on now thank you very much!

 

I still respect Marc and if anyone can use his methods or methods similar it would be him. But I sure don't see him out there trialing anymore. I can only wonder why.

Like I said in other posts, his methods may work for him but the fine nuisances that a green handler doesn't even know exist keep them in the land of never never for quite some time, maybe forever.

Maybe that's ok for the ACK crowd or someone who never really cares where they are going with their dog. But for me, I was so addicted that I bought the farm quickly and there for needed a dog that could help me so was forced to venture out of that magic long line bubble.

Deb, more power to you if you "get it"! Go girl GO!

 

JMHO....from one Jerk to another :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Deb, more power to you if you "get it"! Go girl GO!

 

JMHO....from one Jerk to another

 

Thanks!!! Hey, Welcome Aboard!!!...sometimes I wonder if it's more to do with old fashion lucky to be in the right place at the right time with the right dog the day the Planets fell into alignment.

 

 

Deb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why do these neo-trainers think EVERY dog should "Get out and chase the sheepies"?

 

Because I'm OK and you're OK. We're all OK, and we should do what makes us feel good because it's all about us feeling good. Nobody is the boss of us, and while we're at it our dogs should do what they're bred to do so they can be OK. We don't tell our children "No" so we don't tell our dogs "No" either. That way we can all be OK. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because I'm OK and you're OK. We're all OK, and we should do what makes us feel good because it's all about us feeling good. Nobody is the boss of us, and while we're at it our dogs should do what they're bred to do so they can be OK. We don't tell our children "No" so we don't tell our dogs "No" either. That way we can all be OK. :rolleyes:

 

 

Best answer yet :D

 

However this statement(below) is questionable about some of the dogs and breeds people now want to chase the sheepies:

 

while we're at it our dogs should do what they're bred to do so they can be OK.

 

Is a Giant Schnauzer truely a herding dog? What about a Lab? How about using peanut butter on the ducks tails so the Pit Bull will 'work' them? Not picking on any breed, just using examples. Do these doggies really need to chase the sheepies/duckies just to be OK (whatever that means to the doggie- perhaps the owner needs to address what they are doing/have done to make the doggie not OK)? I'm looking for answers from neo trainers here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is a Giant Schnauzer truely a herding dog? What about a Lab? How about using peanut butter on the ducks tails so the Pit Bull will 'work' them? Not picking on any breed, just using examples. Do these doggies really need to chase the sheepies/duckies just to be OK (whatever that means to the doggie- perhaps the owner needs to address what they are doing/have done to make the doggie not OK)? I'm looking for answers from neo trainers here.

 

Actually the larger terriers, and the Pit Bull, American Bulldog, etc. have a traditional herding purpose as part of the package. They can, if they retain the genetics, be trained to be reliable farm workers on heavy domestic stock.

 

Are they specialists that can adapt to a wide variety of stock types and terrain? no. But if the owner wants to try it, the dog retains enough genetics, and the owner is willing to put in the effort to do it right I have no problem with it. Trialing is also possible, but it will be specialtry trials only in most cases.

 

In fact one of the best "off breed" (non "herding") dogs I've worked with is a Kerry Blue Terrier. I met the dog as an owner (farmer) trained adult. He was very useful being used a combination pet/guard for home and a driver (yes, controlled) of the flock from pasture to pasture. With 300 plus rarebreed ewes he could hardly call him a "hobby" herder. He had flanks and a dead solid standing stop.

 

Back to the question of "why" the typical dog owner might want to try herding - my answer is why not? If they go no fruther than 1 lesson they learn about limits - i.e. no matter what I pay the instructor cannot make my Lassie brave or useful if she doesn't have it in her - and about respect for other species.

 

It's all about how it's presented. And lets be honest, what farm doesn't need a wee bit more income. Is it so bad to use some quiet ewes 10 weekends a year to expose people and dogs (in a controlled manner) to what we do; when they spend the other 345 days a year happily living in the flock with their lambs and flockmates?

 

Back to traditional training - I think the new people are being programed to not like it as is because of the presentation of "new scientifically designed humane training". There are also a lot of the gurus of this mindset who openly talk about "abusive" training and use herding as an example. All of them are terribly afraid of discipline imo, and even more afraid of finding out that they aren't as control of thier fur children as they think when they get out of their SeaWorld tank full of cookies. After all they made their living out of promoting these dogs under terms such as "lemon brains". If they really aren't, then are the the herding people are promoting geniuses and they holding hostages?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...