Jump to content
BC Boards

aggressive behavior


Recommended Posts

My BC is 7 months old. He is beautiful, he's smart... house broke with bell training. He plays frisbee.. He sits when told... he shakes. He's not even overly hyper... but he hates kids. I don't just mean nipping at butts! When he see a kid walking down the street or playing in the yard behind us his hair stands on end and he barks a really mean bark. Three times he has tried to bite a child. Twice it was my grandson and once a child who lives behind me who came over to play frisbee with us. Two times I got bit breaking it up. This last time (yesterday) I was bitten pretty badly... fortunately it was just my arm but it could just as easily have been that little boys face.

 

I can't let my dog hurt anyone, but I don't want to let him go either. I love my dog! I should not have been so stubborn, I know BC's aren't good with kids but I thought we could train him... I still want to train him! I am afraid that even if someone else would take him that he would eventually hurt someone and then he would be put to sleep... I can't even bear the thought of that!

 

Rocky is a wonderful pet for me and my husband! He's well behaved besides this terrible problem he has with children.

 

If you can please direct me or give me advise I would really appreciate it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

Just a few questions....

How old was he when you got him? Where did you get him from? Is there any chance a child could have done something harmful or scary towards him? Have you spoken to any behaviourists (or trainers) that specialize in fearful/reactive dogs? What have you already tried to get him over his fear of children?

Answers to these questions might help people point you in the appropriate direction....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First - call your breeder. They should be aware of this at the least. They may be able to help. Do you know how the puppy was socialized when it was young? Was the dam comfortable with strangers and children? How did you continue this socialization?

 

If chose to keep this puppy it should be with the advice of the breeder, an an in-person trainer with a good reputation for dealing with reactive and aggressive dogs, a regular vet evaluation, and then if possible a vet behaviorist evaulation with someone such such as Debra Horwitz DVM (per google for vet behaviorist in the St Louis area).

 

Border Collies do not necessarily have problems with children. That is a myth. Some excited puppies of all breeds and mixes might consider nipping at fast moving feet reactively, but with simple training and supervision that stops. The kind of aggression you describe sounds very fear based and has nothing to do with breed. And the base in fear changes how to deal with it - but doesn't mean anything to the person on the other end of those teeth!

 

You may just be having a socialization issue, a training issue, or he could have some serious genetic wires loose. Figuring that out, and the proper solution, takes in person evaluation.

 

Number one rule right now is NO MORE KIDS around your puppy. No "let just try this", etc. He has a 3 bite history now, and per your own admission he bit you during an intent to do much more to a child. Only after a reputable professional evaluation, and with a muzzle imo, should your puppy meet children again during controlled interactions.

 

If he were my puppy I'd strongly consider returning him to the breeder immediately. If you had the skills to prevent this you would have already. You've got a long, expensive (training and vets), road ahead to fix this, and it may never be complete. Love is only part of the solution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

Just a few questions....

How old was he when you got him? Where did you get him from? Is there any chance a child could have done something harmful or scary towards him? Have you spoken to any behaviourists (or trainers) that specialize in fearful/reactive dogs? What have you already tried to get him over his fear of children?

Answers to these questions might help people point you in the appropriate direction....

 

When I got him he was 13 weeks old and did not appear to have been mistreated by a child. The breeder did not have young children. He was born in a barn stall in Missouri. She seemed to be a very good horse and BC breeder. There were two pups left when I picked Rocky and he seemed very happy. Nobody has been around him without my supervision since.

 

I have not taken him to a behaviorist or trainer yet... I really hoped I could help. So far I have let him around kids when I am there and with my grandson (at least) he gets pretty good after about 3 days but still very skiddish.

 

Yesterday after he tried to bite the little boy (neighbor) I let the child throw the frisbee for him (because the boy still likes the dog saying he knows he's just a puppy!). I am even taking him to Pets Mart so he can see more kinds of people (instead of just my husband and me).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

primary socialization to people for puppies is 7 weeks to 12 weeks. While genetics (nature) determine his ability to accept new people/change to a degree, deliberate socialization (nurture) plays a huge role in how dogs view people when they are adult.

 

You pup appears to have spent his primary socialization time nearly completely isolated. You were behind when you bought him, and then you've spent a lot of time with just you and your husband around him.

 

In short, you've got the canine equivilent of a child who's about 8 years old and has never met a single human being other than his parents and the doctor who delivered him (the breeder). Small wonder he's a little 'er...crazed at the idea of kids (who look, move, and sound nothing like adults) and more than willing to do battle before being taken by the aliens (aka kids).

 

Unfortunately a lot of the population is kids, and a dog like this is a big risk for causing a lawsuit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

primary socialization to people for puppies is 7 weeks to 12 weeks. While genetics (nature) determine his ability to accept new people/change to a degree, deliberate socialization (nurture) plays a huge role in how dogs view people when they are adult.

 

You pup appears to have spent his primary socialization time nearly completely isolated. You were behind when you bought him, and then you've spent a lot of time with just you and your husband around him.

 

In short, you've got the canine equivilent of a child who's about 8 years old and has never met a single human being other than his parents and the doctor who delivered him (the breeder). Small wonder he's a little 'er...crazed at the idea of kids (who look, move, and sound nothing like adults) and more than willing to do battle before being taken by the aliens (aka kids).

 

Unfortunately a lot of the population is kids, and a dog like this is a big risk for causing a lawsuit.

 

I don't know how to send the private messages and I know you sent me one... if you would send again, I will give you my breeders name.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know how to send the private messages and I know you sent me one... if you would send again, I will give you my breeders name.

 

on the right side of your screen it should say "1 new message". click on that and it will take you to your inbox - from there you can open the message and reply.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I would add is where as you may feel having the kids play frisbee is way of getting him to like kids it could back fire on you as the movements of tossing the frisbee and the excitment of the kids may scare him even more. Introductions should be done slowly and quietly..HOWEVER I agree with Lenajo that since there is a problem and you have not be able to deal with it by yourself, you will need help in learning the skills to deal with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am even taking him to Pets Mart so he can see more kinds of people (instead of just my husband and me).

Keep him away from Pet Smart. You're just asking for more trouble and setting an already unstable dog up for failure. Even well socialized dogs can have problems in that sort of environment.

 

At seven months old, I certainly don't think he's a lost cause. Take the advice of some of the others here and see if you can figure out what's going on in his little doggy head.

 

Good luck and keep us posted on his progress! :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If chose to keep this puppy it should be with the advice of the breeder, an an in-person trainer with a good reputation for dealing with reactive and aggressive dogs, a regular vet evaluation, and then if possible a vet behaviorist evaulation with someone such such as Debra Horwitz DVM (per google for vet behaviorist in the St Louis area).

Exactly!

 

After contacting your breeder if that is at all possible those are the exact steps I would take. Keep him away from kids 100% from now until he is making good progress. Crate in a quiet room if you have to. My own dog isn't so good with kids, we don't have any, don't want any and don't have friends with kids, tough situation! While on vacation, I make sure she always has her own room where she can chill (quite happily) away from children, for the entire day if need be except potty breaks. It's also a good excuse for me to escape for an hour or so throughout the day!

Anyway, with a proper behaviourist or trainer and of course there are no medical conditions to cause this, you should be able to get a handle on the situation. I can't urge strongly enough that you go visit the trainer before you sign up for any classes to make sure you are comfortable using their methods of training on your dog! I also stress positive only training for your dog. Fear aggression can be made so, so much worse by anything other than positive training.

Hopefully you get this sorted out!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our first rescue dog, Ladybug, was unceremoniously dumped at the local shelter a few days before Christmas after snapping at a 3 year old child that was pulling her tail. (Her name was Lady when she came to us and we added the "bug" because of her freckles). She is a beautiful dog, perfectly trained and responsive. I couldn't believe that anyone would give up on such a beautiful dog. I didn't think anything of the snap" because it had clearly been provoked until later that summer I had her at a yard sale. She was behaving nicely then suddenly I heard her give a low, threatening growl. Sure enough a toddler was approaching us. Clearly she hadn't forgotten her experience over six months ago and now resented any child that size. In the four years we've had her, we've never had a problem with her nipping or snapping at any adult, though she avoids socializing with women guests until they can prove an interest in throwing her ball, but she won't let them pet her. She is not allowed near children under the age of eight or nine who are not dog savvy. They just don't know how to behave with any breed of dog. -- we have discovered that her ideal person is a boy of about 8 or nine years old but my husband has made an acceptable substitute. :rolleyes:

 

If you keep this pup, you will have to be hyper viligent about keeping it away from all children - family, guests, kids walking down the street...An animal behavorist might help but don't set your expectations too high. I get nervous when I watch programs such as "It's me or the Dog", or the Dog Whisperer because they create false hopes in people watching because of the quick manner in which the training and results are presented. Training and rehabilitating a dog is a great deal of hard work and one can never be certain that the dog is 100% solid on the trigger (i.e. a child). The best you can hope for is to learn how to recognize signs of trouble and get out fast.

 

I also have a few things to say about parents/caregivers that let a small child wander up to an unfamiliar dog, allow it to be bitten then scream for a lawyer...but I'm sure you'd all agree and think the same thing :D.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our first rescue dog, Ladybug, was unceremoniously dumped at the local shelter a few days before Christmas after snapping at a 3 year old child that was pulling her tail. (Her name was Lady when she came to us and we added the "bug" because of her freckles). She is a beautiful dog, perfectly trained and responsive. I couldn't believe that anyone would give up on such a beautiful dog. I didn't think anything of the snap" because it had clearly been provoked until later that summer I had her at a yard sale. She was behaving nicely then suddenly I heard her give a low, threatening growl. Sure enough a toddler was approaching us. Clearly she hadn't forgotten her experience over six months ago and now resented any child that size. In the four years we've had her, we've never had a problem with her nipping or snapping at any adult, though she avoids socializing with women guests until they can prove an interest in throwing her ball, but she won't let them pet her. She is not allowed near children under the age of eight or nine who are not dog savvy. They just don't know how to behave with any breed of dog. -- we have discovered that her ideal person is a boy of about 8 or nine years old but my husband has made an acceptable substitute. :rolleyes:

 

If you keep this pup, you will have to be hyper viligent about keeping it away from all children - family, guests, kids walking down the street...An animal behavorist might help but don't set your expectations too high. I get nervous when I watch programs such as "It's me or the Dog", or the Dog Whisperer because they create false hopes in people watching because of the quick manner in which the training and results are presented. Training and rehabilitating a dog is a great deal of hard work and one can never be certain that the dog is 100% solid on the trigger (i.e. a child). The best you can hope for is to learn how to recognize signs of trouble and get out fast.

 

I also have a few things to say about parents/caregivers that let a small child wander up to an unfamiliar dog, allow it to be bitten then scream for a lawyer...but I'm sure you'd all agree and think the same thing :D.

 

Thanks for the advise (everyone). I am not giving up on him. I have spoken to the breeder after reading all the advise and she will help me. She does seem to use some agressive dominance training that I will use after trying to muzzle him around my grandson so that Rocky can get used to quick movement with my supervision and support.

 

I will also take him to the vet to make sure there is nothing to worry about medically.

 

I think he is a really good dog beyond this kid problem. He goes to be groomed every couple of months with my little dog and does very well there. I will put the muzzle on him and let everyone know how we're doing.

 

Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dog was fearful and reactive about a lot of stuff early on - one thing that really helped was giving him lots of treats as he was exposed to "scary" things. This especially worked with small children. Whenever we saw a toddler or baby, I would say, "Baby!" and give treats. At some point, Buddy figured out that strollers were very cool things, and actually started liking babies. He's still wary of toddlers who dart around, but I manage him carefully and only expose him to kids when I know I can set up a good meeting. (Calm child, lots of treats, no overcrowding or sudden motion.) A couple times, I've let Buddy "play rough" (dog runs away from us - he loves to be chased around) with me and my neighbor's dog-savvy 7-year-old, but only with close supervision.

 

If you're going to use the muzzle for exposure to fast motion, you might want to super-reward when the dog is calm near a moving child.

 

Mary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't want to sound mean, but you really can't treat human-directed aggression on your own, you need a professional NOW. In the long run, seeking the help of a veterinary behaviorist is going to pay off in spades and the more you try to do on your own, the more likely you're going to make the problem worse, rather than better. PLEASE do not use "aggressive dominance" techniques with this dog, nor muzzle him so he can interact with kids - he's obviously not ready for direct interaction with children at this point! Aggression work is not designed to go quickly - there are no quick fixes!!! Baby steps are key, no matter what you see on TV.

 

To locate a vet behaviorist, look at these two links; the initial consult will be pricey but it will be totally worth it in the long run.

 

American College of Veterinary Behaviorists: http://dacvb.org/about-us/diplomates/

 

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ind...&Itemid=357

 

Here's a thread that might drive this point home: More detailed update on Pan - pansmom came to the board originally very concerned about some major behavior and aggression issues Pan was exhibiting. She took Pan to a vet behaviorist on the recommendation of several on this board and she's seeing a ton of progress already.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the advise (everyone). I am not giving up on him. I have spoken to the breeder after reading all the advise and she will help me. She does seem to use some agressive dominance training that I will use after trying to muzzle him around my grandson so that Rocky can get used to quick movement with my supervision and support.

 

I will also take him to the vet to make sure there is nothing to worry about medically.

 

I think he is a really good dog beyond this kid problem. He goes to be groomed every couple of months with my little dog and does very well there. I will put the muzzle on him and let everyone know how we're doing.

 

Thanks!

 

I am somewhat concerned about the aggressive dominance training that your breeder uses. Do you know what kind of techniques these are? Like I said before treating fear aggression with these kind of techniques usually does not work. My dog has fear and reactivity issues and she is a very "soft" dog. Correcting her instead of counter conditioning and desensitizing her to her triggers did us absolutely no good and set us so far back. They learn to associate pain (like a yank on the collar or even worse pinching form a pinch collar) or negativity to their triggers and makes it worse.

Putting a muzzle on him and still keeping him around his triggers (children) probably won't help much either, the idea behind desensitization and counter conditioning is that you expose the dog to it's trigger, while under it's reaction threshold and making it associate good things (food is popular) with the trigger.

You should do a search for the two major topics that Pansmom posted. You will find them extremely insightful I think. (one has already been linked in this thread). Everyone who said it's not an easy fix is right, it's not, but it can be done if you do it right and take your time!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In order to have a successful outcome with Rocky you will need professional help (a credentialed behaviorist-- NOT A TRAINER) and you will need to become near expert at reading and interpreting his body language, as well as understanding and implementing the approaches to counter-conditioning. On average, few people are equipped with the time, inclination or skills to successfully accomplish this --i.e. have the dog become truly reliable. Using aggressive/ dominance training is a prescription for disaster for a fear aggressive dog. Do not put a fear aggressive dog, muzzled or not, in the company of a child, when you know that will trigger his reactivity. He needs to be maintained sub-threshold at all times. Every aspect of these interaction need to be 100% controlled or you will be reinforcing his reactivity. Children are unpredictable to anxious dogs.

 

Realistically, I think you would be best served, for the time being, by banishing any thoughts of rehabilitating Rocky to be trustworthy around small children, and simply avoid those situations entirely. Put him in a crate, or a separate room, or behind a baby gate while the grandkids are visiting. Do not permit any interactions whatsoever. I speak from experience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Realistically, I think you would be best served, for the time being, in banishing any thoughts of rehabilitating Rocky to be trustworthy around small children, and simply avoid those situations entirely. Put him in a crate, or a separate room, or behind a baby gate while the grandkids are visiting. Do not permit any interactions whatsoever. I speak from experience.

 

I'd have to agree with this. Right now, your best solution is management. Your dog should be separated from kids at all times. My dog Jun is also fearful of kids, so much so that she begins growling if she sees a kid a long distance away. I would love to work on desensitizing her to children, but I don't have children, don't really know anyone with children, and really, who would want to volunteer their child to work with a fear-reactive dog, much less a fear-aggressive dog with a known bite history like yours. I also have to be very watchful for any children, try to spot them before she does and then head in the other direction. You've been given some really good advice here, and I hope you take it to heart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In order to have a successful outcome with Rocky you will need professional help (a credentialed behaviorist-- NOT A TRAINER) and you will need to become a near expert at reading and interpreting his body language, as well as understanding and implementing the approaches to counter-conditioning.

 

Be careful in choosing a "behaviorist" as well. I recently adopted a then five month old Border Collie puppy who had been labeled "fear aggressive" among other things by someone who is supposedly a Professional Behavorist. I have had the puppy for five weeks. She is very appropriate and interactive with other dogs and I have had not a single issue with aggression, she has been out and about meeting new dogs many times in many different situations. The various other findings of the behaviorist have also miraculously not surfaced. This puppy was definitely having issues in its previous home but they were either relationship based or management based.

 

My point is to research and choose a behaviorist carefully.

 

Here is a link to a good article about finding one.

 

http://companionanimalsolutions.com/blogs/...ior-specialist/

 

Good luck with your boy.

 

Jen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She does seem to use some agressive dominance training that I will use after trying to muzzle him around my grandson so that Rocky can get used to quick movement with my supervision and support.

Thanks!

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH, no. When my dog, then about eight or nine months old, had similar problems I took some terrible advice and used "aggressive" methods used to treat dogs with "dominance" issues and it made things MUCH MUCH worse. If your dog is fear aggressive (i.e., scared of kids, which would be much more common than dominance aggressive), then you could REALLY traumatize her by doing this. Really, GET THEE TO A VETERINARY BEHAVIORIST.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No need to take our word for it. Here are a couple of studies just published in peer-reviewed scientific journals that suggest that "aggressive dominance training" is very likely the wrong approach for your problem:

 

If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study

 

Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dr. Debra Horowitz, DVM, is in your area. You also may want to contact the Humane Society of Missouri (located in St Louis) to see if they have trainer recommendations. They are a great group of people with trainers on staff. You are in an area where there are a lot of great trainers. You can visit www.apdt.com and do the trainer search, however, I would still seek recommendations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do agree that dominance is unlikely to help with fear or reactivity. I quickly saw escalation of aggressive behavior when I was aggressive (leash jerks, etc.) with my fear reactive dog. When I backed off and gave him a break from scary things is when I started to see improvement.

 

Mary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know BC's aren't good with kids

 

Hmm, that's a pretty generalized statement. My pup Seek LOVES children, and has never nipped one. She freaks when she sees kids and wants nothing more than to play with them or get pets and kisses.

 

I'm sorry your dog has a fear/aggression of/towards kids. That can be scary as some kids just walk right up to pet dogs without asking. I wish you luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...