Border Collie

[phej]

More so than losing the home that she knows and is used to? There may be other means but compared to rehoming (all other things being equal) a bark collar does not sound like an unreasonable or totally inhumane suggestion IMHO.

 

If I were a dog, I think I would prefer to go to a new good home over having my neck shocked with an electric current, but that's just me...

[roanne]

I'm a great believer that a dog, particularly and active and intelligent one, should not just be out in a yard to amuse herself. That is where problem behaviors like fence-running and barking originate, in boredom and nothing mentally or physically stimulating and satisfying.

 

She's not "barking because she wants to play or herd" - she's barking because it is self-rewarding, like many undesirable (to us) behaviors that animals do when they don't have anything else to occupy their minds and bodies.

 

Does she have to be in the yard/pen when you are gone? Can she be kept in the house or crated with the type of toys that can keep her occupied for part of the day? After you play with her, couldn't you bring her inside, either loose or crated for some quiet time, where there won't be the same stimulation of seeing cars or people coming and going?

 

Many animals that are doing something that we don't want, will momentarily stop when "yelled at" but, without a change in the situation/environment or real training, just yelling changes nothing. In fact, for some animals, it means they have gotten your attention (this is seen in children, too) and that in itself can be a reward and reinforcement for the unwanted behavior.

 

I'm tending to think that, with other things you have on your plate and seemingly not much time for this dog, she might well be better off if rehomed where she can have sufficient time and attention from her owner and family. I'm not meaning to be negative, just practical.

I shall try to bring her in and get her some toys to play with. That makes alot of sense that she needs some quiet time. I guess I just wanted her to have the perfect home for her. She is so active and would love a home that could teach her agility.

Thanks for sure

Roanne

[Sue R]

Roanne - It's not only toys but interaction with people that is important. A dog that is occupied mentally (as well as physically) enough can have plenty of "down time". Toys that may help are ones that dispense her kibble as she plays/investigates them, or in other ways, occupy her mind as well as her body.

 

I agree with you that a new home might be the best alternative, assuming it's a more suitable situation.

 

As for adjustments, I think most dogs adjust very well to new homes/situations as long as they are suitable. In general, dogs don't worry quite the same way that people do. As devoted to us as our dogs are, if something happened to Ed and myself, and they went to good new homes, I believe they would adjust quite readily and happily in pretty short order.

 

Sometimes, rehoming is the best thing that can happen to a dog that is not currently in an optimal situation. Like adoption, it can be a very selfless act if done for the right reasons.

[in2adventure]

I think rehoming may the answer. I checked out your web page. You are a mastiff/bulldog breeder. I can not imagine mixing a BC into that. It's NOT because I think they can't get along. It's because I think you don't know what to do with a BC personality. PLEASE don't take this as a negative crack at you. It is NOT. What I mean is that they take totally different training technique and their needs are not even remotely similar. Many people that breed/show a couple different types of dogs stick with similar breeds. Such as the mastiff/bulldog, aussies/BC's, pointers/setters, etc.

 

My brother has a mastiff. He has this breed of dog because she only needs minimal exercise, likes to lounge on the couch, go for SHORT walks and needs minimal training without a lot of followup or continuous/ongoing training. She is as polar opposite from my dogs as the north and south pole are from each other. My brother has a mastiff because he neither has the time, patience or energy to handle a more active breed.

 

My guess is that your BC is not getting enough interaction/training time with her people. These dogs NEED to have jobs and be interactive with people. They were bred for personal interaction. Standing in a show ring looking pretty is not a job. Obedience, SAR, agility, Rally-O, flyball, sheep herding are jobs. Leaving them in a backyard to themselves will only cause them to find their own job and for most people, it's usually not a good one.

 

Good luck with your situation. I hope it works out well. By the way...you have beautiful mastiffs. My brother would be drooling

[Ninso]

Thanks for all the information......She is very loud and near scares the death out of me and whoever else is around. I'm sure she's barking because she wants to play or herd but it still doesn't make it any easier. There's got to be something I can do. If I leave her out in the yard she is running back and forth the fence line. If she is in her pen she is barking at anyone who is playing in the yard. HELP is needed.

Thanks again, I will try the shock collar and anything else people offer.

 

Roanne,

Based on the additional information you've given, I tend to agree with Sue R and in2adventure. Your dog needs more time, attention, and mental stimulation from you. My dogs, if left alone in the yard, would bark continuously and chase cars along the fence like as well. I make sure they get enough physical and mental exercise daily and when I can't supervise they are in the house, often crated. A bark collar may cure the barking, but won't cure the underlying problem, and you may end up with other undesirable behaviors like digging or chewing.

[Sue R]

A bark collar may cure the barking, but won't cure the underlying problem, and you may end up with other undesirable behaviors like digging or chewing.

This is an absolutely important aspect that I neglected to mention - if you don't "solve the problem" at its source, you will just wind up with another behavior that you don't want.

[ejano]

Not to hijack, but have you ever used a bark collar? I used to be very against them. I am certain they can in some cases create pychological damage, as can many other methods of physical punishment, but in some situations they are a wonderful solution to a barking problem. I would not recommend a bark collar as a first resort, and if there is an underlying cause of the barking (stress, boredom, etc.) I would address that first. However, I have learned never to say never in dog training. I use a bark collar on my deaf dog who demand barks. She gets plenty of exercise and stimulation, but ignoring her doesn't work, positive reinforcement for being quiet doesn't work and also, I can't always sit next to her crate and treat her for quiet behavior. Sometimes, she is content just to bark her extremely loud and high pitched bark (she can't hear herself) for long periods of time. This stresses me out and stresses out my other dog. For those times, I have found that a bark collar stops her and saves my sanity. It only took one shock for her to learn and she is completely in control of whether or not she gets punished. Also, unlike a human-controlled shock collar, the timing of the correction is always perfect. The level of shock is mild. And the collar is self-correcting, so there is no damage of the punishment being associated with the owner. Furthermore, for my dog, other means of punishment that would generally be considered much less harsh, like a squirt bottle, are for her obviously far more traumatic than having her bark collar put on. She is very afraid of the bottle, she is fine with the collar. I personally would not recommend any type of punishment as a first resort, and a bark collar may not be appropriate in this case, but then again, it may.

 

I respect that in your situation that the bark color was the only solution, but for me personally, I stand against anything that shocks the dog (and that includes spraying with bottles, etc.). I'm more a follower of positive reinforcement - i.e. clicker training. Perhaps its because we've dealt with rescues who've suffered from the wrong kind of handling and misapplication of disciplinary tools...I may change my mind once we finish raising these pups but I hope not.

[SoloRiver]

I put a hotwire around my husband's roses to keep Solo from crapping in them. It gives a rather mild static shock, like touching a doorknob in winter. All three dogs have hit the wire (yes, it works on Solo now) and given their outsize reactions to the shock I know I would never, ever strap something that does that around a dog's neck. A fence they can understand and avoid; a collar, not so much.

 

I agree that the barking is a symptom and that unless the underlying cause is addressed rehoming is a better option for Raven in this case.

[Ninso]

A fence they can understand and avoid; a collar, not so much.

 

That's not true. They can avoid the shock from the collar in the same way as they can avoid the shock from the fence. (Of course, they can't avoid the collar itself, but if they are not barking, the collar is benign.) No barking = no shock. My dog's quiet behavior when she's wearing the collar demonstrates this in the same way that your dogs' avoidance of your garden demonstrates that they have learned to associate a behavior with a consequence. Of course, there may be dogs that don't put two and two together and just get freaked out when they wear the collar, continue barking, and continue getting zapped not understanding their role in producing the shock, but then you obviously wouldn't use the collar on that dog. I don't see any difference between using an electric wire to prevent entry to an area (the dog gets one correction and then avoids the behavior) and using an electric shock to prevent another behavior such as barking (the dog gets one correction and then, also, avoids the behavior). You are clearly not opposed to using corrections, or to using electric shock as a correction, so I'm not understanding how you're drawing this line in the sand.

[SoloRiver]

First, the shock is applied directly to the dog's neck.

 

Second, collars often lead to superstitious behavior, indicating that they are not always easy for dogs to understand, even smart ones.

 

I HAVE tried a citronella collar and found it to be largely ineffective. Solo learned to turn his head and empty the chamber very quickly.

[ziggzmom]

I put a hotwire around my husband's roses to keep Solo from crapping in them. It gives a rather mild static shock, like touching a doorknob in winter. All three dogs have hit the wire (yes, it works on Solo now) and given their outsize reactions to the shock I know I would never, ever strap something that does that around a dog's neck. A fence they can understand and avoid; a collar, not so much.

 

Hi,

 

I know there are different settings for the electronic collar....Do you know how your fence compares to the lowest setting on the e-collar? I'm thinking that hot wire is probably like a higher setting on an e-collar?

 

Recently I saw a collar advertised that has different setting of vibration only(no shock)....Is anyone familiar with these?

 

Janet

[Ninso]

Melanie,

 

May I ask what you would do if you had a dog who barked in her crate for no other reason than she didn't want to be in her crate at a volume similar to standing next to the speakers at a rock concert and a pitch that could probably nearly shatter glass (I exaggerate only slightly). She barks regardless of how much attention, exercise, mental stimulation she gets during the day, she barks at night and early in the morning while you are trying to sleep, and all day long while you are at work, stressing out your other dogs. She will stop while you are right next to her, feeding her treats for being quiet, but not otherwise--her barking is way more self-rewarding than treats. You work and you need to sleep, and you can't sit by her crate all day long. Do you suggest I rehome this dog? Do you suggest I rehome my other dog who is getting stressed and just put up with the barking myself? What if her barking and other out of control behavior was the reason she was given up? What if she had been given up for such reasons multiple times? What if nobody else wanted this dog? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm really just wondering. You said never, ever would you use a bark collar. I'm just wondering if you've ever really been in a situation where nothing else works and the barking is intolerable and what you would do then?

[Caroline Reichard]

May I ask what you would do if you had a dog who barked in her crate for no other reason than she didn't want to be in her crate at a volume similar to standing next to the speakers at a rock concert and a pitch that could probably nearly shatter glass ... Do you suggest I rehome this dog?

 

 

I'd like to see the person who would want the dog, cuz I have some other stuff I want to unload on them that no one else will take, starting with Barbie's Magic Fantastic Dreamhouse and its 10,000 accessories.

 

I imagine that barking probably ranks among the top three reasons for dogs ending up in shelters, along with biting and peeing in the house. Self-rewarding barking can be a death sentance. Why not try the collar??? Beats the purple juice any day.

[in2adventure]

I agree with Ninso. You can not say NEVER when training. Some things may be last resort, but never is a pretty strong word when working with animals and kids. I've had the pleasure of meeting Ninso's Jun. I had her for 5-6 days while she was on a transport with me. She's an awesome dog and her only fault is her self rewarding barking. Why send a dog to another home just because it barks. Won't they just continue to bark in the new home? If you are doing you best to control the behavior, why would rehoming solve the problem, other than YOU can't hear the barking anymore.

 

The OP's issue is more than self reward barking. I really think the dog is not getting the time and attention she needs. So, in her case, rehoming her to someone that has the time and energy for her may be the answer. A bark collar is probably not the fix she's looking for. In Ninso case, it's a last resort because I know she spends a great deal of time and energy on her dogs to keep them busy.

 

I've been shocked with a collar before. I would never do something to animal that I wouldn't check out thoroughly myself. I wrapped the collar around the back of my hand and gradually turned it up. Out of 10 levels, I got to #6 before I thought it was too painfull. Settings 1,2,3 feel like touching a battery or a horse fence. 4,5,6 hit the realm of real discomfort and pain. Needless to say, I would never set one any higher than 6 and think 3 is a perfect setting to get the point across.

 

Vibrating collars don't work for anything but maybe calling the dog. Why would a vibration be considered a correction? It may get their attention if you're looking to distract them, but would completely uneffective for a dog randomly barking in it's kennel, chasing wildlife or harrassing neighbors.

[BustopherJones]

I'm sorry to sound stupid and simplistic, but I have two basic rules:

1. Handle your dog the way you would handle a 3-year-old child.

2. Don't do anything to a dog that you wouldn't do to your own young child.

It may make things more complicated, but at least I don't have to endure any guilt trips about how I treat my dogs.

[Caroline Reichard]

I'm sorry to sound stupid and simplistic, but I have two basic rules:

1. Handle your dog the way you would handle a 3-year-old child.

2. Don't do anything to a dog that you wouldn't do to your own young child.

It may make things more complicated, but at least I don't have to endure any guilt trips about how I treat my dogs.

 

 

Hi BustopherJones,

 

I understand your point of view and admire your committment to treat your dogs with affection and respect, but I don't think you will have many trainers or handlers of working dogs who will agree with you. My dogs aren't children, and my children aren't dogs. I treat them very differently. I would never, for instance, knowingly put my three year old in potentially fatal danger, but I have occasionally put my dogs in very dangerous situations, both here on the farm and back when I trained and deployed dogs in Urban Search and Rescue work. When they were young, I didn't put my kids in crates and then go out to dinner. I wouldn't trust human lives to my three year old or assume that his judgement was better than my own, although I routinely did so with my trained dogs. For me, loving my dogs is deeply connected to respecting their capactities, giving them a chance to excel at what they love, and understanding both the strengths and limitations that they bring to a working relationship. They aren't anything like children, and I think that it would be demeaning to them for me to treat them that way.

[border_collie_crazy]

I have never heard of Vibration collars being used as a correction collar, I usually see them in reference to being an attention getter for dogs out of hearing range or deaf dogs

 

as for shock collars, I used to say they were horrable and inhumane. that was, until I needed one. now I think anyone whos claims I am abusive for using one can go stuff it lol. when I meet people out who see my terrier in a his e-collar, whn they go off on me, I simpley remove the collar from my dog, place in on their wrist and shock them with the highest level I ever use on my dog. young kids who have tried it think it tickles, adults cant even feel it. 6 out of 20 is the highest level I ever use on my Terrier.

 

thats not to say an e-collar is a miracle worker, its great for CERTAIN dogs, but its scares the dickons off of some dogs, and other just dont get it. one of my BCs is terrifed of it, and the other thinks its the doggy version of marco-polo lol