Sue R Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I think it's peculiar that a "training centre" website fails to have any information on what the centre teaches yet lists lots of dogs and lots of dogs for sale. Dogs usually don't have to be taught to copulate. Did I overlook a page on the site? Penny I'm kind of lost here - Vergil's website has no dogs for sale as I could see. Are you perhaps looking at a different person's website? Vergil does sell pups and started dogs to some extent, but I found nothing really (other than saying that they were sometimes available) on his website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Not to butt in, but I think she meant the Plumridge site (which does have the facility listed as a training centre), not Vergil's site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 eta- just "who" are all these evil trial people that sell, sell, sell......if your dogs are good then they should be able to "work" and not need to be sold Umm, it's standard practice for some people to purchase a prospect, determine that it may not make the level they are trying to achieve and then sell it on to another person that may not require as much in a dog as you do, it does not mean that the dog did not work, it just didn't work to the level required. Some will take dogs in on trade for their pups, put some time in on them and then resell them or maybe trial them theirselves, kinda like horse trading. I also know of others that will purchase left over pups from other litters, raise them and sell them, or maybe even keep them in their own breeding program if they prove to have something that their other dogs are lacking. It's a different world when you purchase and raise working dog prospects vs. purchasing and raising a pet that you will hope will be a working dog. Yeah, in many cases our working dogs are our pets, but if they do not earn their keep or if they have not earned a retirement they may be rehomed, basically pet status is earned in our household, same deal with our horses. Also, we may have one that has earned pet status but could be useful to someone else, I'd rather let that dog go be the apple of someone else's eye and be useful then to sit here just being a pet. We can only have so many dogs, well, not really we could have slews, but we won't due to financial restraints, if what we have is not making the grade we need to replace it (not need, want to), it costs just as much to feed a biscuit eater as it does a top dog. What I'm trying to say, it's a personal choice, how we (anyone) want to manage their working dog program. BTW, IMO the pressure to keep all your failed prospects and care for them for the rest of their lives is what creates some hoarding, people trying to operate their business in a "Politicaly Correct" manner, while still trying to find that next top dog. Slam away... Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Deb, I think your post has many valid points. The part I have a hard time wrapping my brain around is the number -- was it 53 dogs??? The whole theory falls apart there. And those are just the ones listed on the website. And Penny ... good point. Odd how there are 53 dogs listed on the site, but not one page that mentions anything about the services of the "training centre" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I do not often place many of my dogs into homes that trial on the Open USBCHA field, I am open and honest about that. The few that have contacted me about pups were not pleased to hear that I did not want to see my dog trained and then resold (which does happen often with some trial people). Any puppy I sell, if for some reason they are unable to keep it needs to come back to me. I also ask that all health checks be done before any breeding of that animal takes place. When I say I keep it it may not live at my home with me directly (keep ability to use it). As many people do, I keep and grow pups out from litters, some of these pups (as others have stated earlier) do not mature into the working dog a person hopes they will be. For that reason the 'retained' puppy who is now older is placed in an appropriate home (some working some not). So I guess its only USBCHA people that you don't like passing a dog on if it doesn't work out, but you can do the same thing and that is ok? I tell you, if I pay you money for a puppy, that is my puppy. If you don't want it to be bred, you can sell it to me on a limited registration, but if I am giving you MY hard earned money for a dog, that dog is mine to do as I please. I have never liked this selling a puppy to someone who is paying the price of the dog, the vet bills, feed etc and the breeder retains the rights to the puppy. If I have bought a puppy from you, its mine. If you want to determine what happens with that pup, then you keep it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Not to butt in, but I think she meant the Plumridge site (which does have the facility listed as a training centre), not Vergil's site. Sorry, I misunderstood as Vergil's is called The Training Center. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Deb, I think your post has many valid points. The part I have a hard time wrapping my brain around is the number -- was it 53 dogs??? The whole theory falls apart there. And those are just the ones listed on the website. My post was directed to the question of ""just "who" are all these evil trial people that sell, sell, sell..."". As far as 53 dogs, it's easy, especially with 2 breeds and if someone is trying to develop a breeding program that covers many different disciplines and then feels that any dog that does not make the grade needs to be taken care of for them, I could see them actually having ownership of 100's. Maybe not all at one location but co-owned, look at their contracts, they retain partial ownership rights, they are going to advertise for themselves anything successful even if it is shown or trained by someone else. These are breeding/performance programs (beit good or bad), not hobby breeding programs. They are geared to breed in volume to increase the chances of finding the next greatest specialist or jack of all trades. I think most of us are familuar with hobby programs, breed our good trial/working dog to a good female and raise us some pups so we can have a son or daughter of our good dog. I'm not saying either program is right or wrong, it's not up to me to pass judgement. Something to remember breeding programs don't typically go anywhere by breeding out of the need for a dog, they go somewhere by the breeder having the need to find a particular dog or type of dog, basically the need is relative and based on a choice. I could see 53 plus as completely possible if there was enough revenue generated to justify it, it doesn't have to be profitable, just not a complete loss. It doesn't matter how ethical or unethical of a breeder you are, there really is no such thing as anyone "Needing" to breed, we all choose to or not to. If one of your conditions of an ethical breeder is one that has a need to breed then you need to exclude anyone that is breeding, even the top handlers don't need to breed, they could trial with whatever they can find, the calibur of dog might go down the shitter in a hurry, but what's the difference there will still be a top dog, just the best of the worst instead of the best of the best. There's lots of ranchers and farmers out there using dogs that are far from stellar examples of good working dogs, they make due. You don't know what truely great is until you have had it. Some of us aspire to achieve or aquire greatness others of us are happy with make due with what we are given. It's all part of the puzzle that makes up diversity. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 "Are you perhaps looking at a different person's website?" I was referring to the name of the business the OP inquired about. It was only fair to examine the site reasonably thoroughly, so I read the webpages and even the blog trying to discover what kind of training. I couldn't find a word about the nature of the training at said centre. One page has a prodigious number of small pictures of dogs that have stayed with or been handled by the training centre. Didn't say handled doing what. Conformation? I understand there are lessons available to do that so maybe the dogs were there to learn to be show dogs or to be professionally handled for the owners. Despite looking for what hook might make the place a training centre of any kind, I saw no mention of either obedience classes or handling. As I said earlier, I could have missed it because the name of the business is so odd otherwise. Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Debbie, Your argument makes sense only if the person breeding all those dogs is actually working them or selling them into working or trialing homes so that the breeding program can be objectively evaluated. Personally I don't see a need for anyone to keep that many dogs for such a program--the folks I know who breed consistently from their own lines and have proven their dogs on the farm and trial field typically have fewer dogs than that. There's just no way one human being can prove that many dogs. Like I said in an earlier post, I have five working dogs of my own and maybe one other here on occasion. Two of my five are open trial dogs so don't really need a lot of training work. That leaves the three youngsters plus one on occasion, and those few dogs keep me plenty busy. When not working an outside job, I could probably take on a few more, but certainly not tens of dogs or more. And then you bring up the idea of many different disciplines (and therefor needing greater numbers of breeding dogs, presumably for the various disciplines), though I believe the PR person said she doesn't do agility, mainly just conformation (with the Aussies) and herding (with the border collies and also presumably the Aussies). Again, I trial five dogs and it's very expensive. AKC, etc., are even more expensive than USBCHA, and that's not even considering the cost of bench shows, not to mention the time needed to travel to and from such events and compete in them. I honestly don't see how one person (or even several) could manage to do all that with any regularity and be able to make good honest performance-based evaluations of their breeding stock. It seems to me that if you have a breeding operation with a hundred dogs (your number) you're trying to find quality through breeding quantity, which strikes me as a rather scattershot approach to breeding. Surely breeding fewer dogs and spending the time (or selling them into homes willing to spend the time) proving them and then carefully breeding those few good ones is a more logical way to go about producing the next great one. JMO, of course. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Deb, just out of curiosity, between you and your husband and the two(?) breeds you have, how many dogs do you have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I totally agree with Julie here. I have 7 dogs here at the moment--3 are retirees (although one, at 12, is still tough as nails, and I use her when really needed for a super tough job). 2 are open level dogs, so don't need much other than tuning up (or to do the "real work" on occasion), which leaves 2 that are really "in training." I have another who will be coming back in a month or so to start, also. Sometimes I have an outside dog or two in for training for 30-90 days. My hands are full. I have a day job, but it's only 2 days a week, and only 30 weeks out of the year (gee, when I look at it that way, I have it pretty good!). But one person just cannot do that many dogs justice. There is no way one person (even if you have a spouse or SO to help with other stuff) can train that many dogs to a high enough level to truly objectively evaluate their breed-worthiness. There just aren't enough hours in the day. I agree that: breeding fewer dogs and spending the time (or selling them into homes willing to spend the time) proving them and then carefully breeding those few good ones is a more logical way to go about producing the next great one. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Sorry it took so long to respond, out remodeling the dog kennel so I can get puppies out of my leather shop, yippee, we still have to catch dinner. As to our numbers, too many!!! But, does it matter how many we have if we are not breeding them? We have limited breeding to one litter a year focusing on one male. I think I went over the whole other breed we deal with in previous posts, to tired to go into it again, heck, I think I've been over all this ground before, this isn't about our program anyway, for that matter we don't have a program, just the hopes and dreams. Awe heck, how many did you come up with when you tried to count heads on our website? Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Oh I wasn't talking about how many litters you breed or anything. I was just getting an idea of how many you own, because I think it's easier to justify why someone has 53 dogs if you have that many or near that many yourself. I have 3, so the thought of 53 makes my head explode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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