Canaan Ranch border collies

[C Crocker]

That was April Quist's dog, and April was running him. It was more like six or seven years ago, I think, and since the dog was 8 years old at the time, he was probably born around the time of AKC recognition. I remember posting congratulations to her on the Boards, and saying that she was one of the few BCSA people that I thought sincerely meant it when they talked about trying to preserve working ability in the AKC border collie. I've lost track of her and don't know what's happened with her since then, though. Don't think she ever moved up to Open.

 

 

 

Eileen,

 

You are correct in your info on April. I was not going to enter this discussion for a multitude of reasons, however I do know April so here I am adding my 2 cents. Epic ( April's dog) and Harley ( Sandi Andersen's bitch) I believe to be litter mates and would now be 10 years old. They were ( before I knew either dogs or owners) briefly started by Jan, then went to a friend of mine as very green dogs which is when I met both ladies and dogs. Then both moved to Suzy Applegate and both owners' left their litter mates there to be trained and take lessons. Both started in Novice/Novice then up to P/N . Harley and Sandi moved up to Open and have competed up to and including a very good run in 2001 at Finals. ( In fact Sandi made the semi-finals with a dog Brock that Suzy bred and trained). April I think split her time between lessons with Suzy on sheep and Obedience at a high level with Jan. I know nothing of Obedience/Agility but have met many folks who have/do go to Suzy with their dogs who won in these venues at a nat'l level. Jan has a very good reputation with these folks in Obedience/Agility. I know of one bitch Jan had in stockdog training with Suzy for a bit. I do not remember her trialing this bitch, but maybe Jan did when she got her home. That was some years ago, I believe before Jan moved from CA. I would guess she was refered to Suzy by either April or Sandi but don't know for sure.

 

The trial that April won the P/N class is at the Sonoma Wine Country trial in Santa Rosa, CA. It is a very very tough trial , including the P/N. Tough range ewes and handlers from all over the USA and Canada. I was extremely happy to have been 4th there this year ( 44 head) with my borrowed

retired Open dog ( my dog is being trialed by Suzy so I am fortunate enough to have been given the chance to trial her two retired dogs.) Tough P/N seems to be discarded as nothing let me say the same field and same range ewes are used and it is tough. It takes some handling as well, as I can tesitfy! The one dog I trialed had won the Open Overall there twice and Res twice and I RT! The other dog had won the Open on the field where I was 4th and I was thrilled with that1 So April should be proud of her run with Epic. It was not a gimme for April.

 

Both these dogs from Jan's breeding have been fortunate enough to have owners who sought out great training and applied themselves seriously to the ISDS style of the trialing world. This is neither an endorsement nor a critisism of Jan's program, of which I know virtually nothing. Just an attempt to set the record for two dogs from the HN program.

 

Carolyn

[Lenajo]

From Jan: I put more into other aspects such as structure, temperament, biddability, work ethic and don't forget easy on the eyes:>), etc. The fact that I don't breed for working ability exclusively and breed bc's that have not competed at the open level sheepdog trials puts many a bc purist into fits of rage:>) I leave the breeding of border collies exclusively bred for working attributes to those that hold that near and dear to their hearts and applaud them!

 

But if she did breed for working ability exclusively, wouldn't structure, temperament, biddability and work ethic follow suit???

 

Yes, but she wouldn't get $2k a pup for just doing that. You need the put a better spin on it if you want to rook people into paying those prices. #1 you have to get them to believe you are doing the same as the traditional working breeders when all you are doing is breeding wildly colored, health tested sport dogs who occassaionally see sheep.

[Rave]

Last time I looked at the HobNob site there were 6 litters planned over a 6 month period. At an average of $2000 a pup, with an average of 6 pups a litter, thats $72000 earned gross.

 

Holy crap, forget real work, I'm getting into breeding! Candy Canes here I come! w00t!

[Stoga]

Source: HobNob Blog

“As for LS, I know that the HN army will conduct themselves with dignity if they cross paths next weekend.”

 

HN army? With that many litters, I guess so.

[Rave]

"Let me go on record that I knew up front that anything that I posted to the bc boards in order to give facts to the unjustified slamming, would not be viewed as such. Many times I simply ignore such slanderous posts but every once in awhile I find it necessary to put the facts out there in the hopes that it overrides the lies. And every time the end result is one of failure on my part to get the truth to be seen as it is."

 

To set the record straight, you were the one coming on here to flame just as much, if not more so, hence Eileen's warning. You did present the truth, sorry if people here just weren't impressed. I did learn about this Mark guy and his unorthodox training methods. I'd be curious to see if any dogs had competed in Open successfully using those methods? You also made it clear you don't charge by color, which some color breeders do.

 

"As for LS, I know that the HN army will conduct themselves with dignity if they cross paths next weekend."

 

To clarify, I was referring to your and your partner, not anyone else. I have friends with HN dogs, and I'd never expect any of them to act w/o dignity, because they're GOOD DECENT PEOPLE. End of story. This has nada to do with anyone who owns a HN dog. If you feel you need an army behind you, so be it. I'm content to drop this.

[sixx]

* I spend $4 on a latte and some here might think that's exhorbitant too. To each their own.

 

here here!

[Sue R]

Who is LS?

[Denise Wall]

Just as in obedience and agility, there are many ways to start a dog in their herding training. Marc Christopher fits the status of a remarkably gifted and talented herding instructor whose training method is 'outside the box' of what is most familiar to the more typical tried and true herding diehards. And because of this outside the box training method, it brings forth the nay sayers to come forward to slander it without even beginning to know how effective his method is! Again, pretty typical.

 

Because this may be from my post, I'll address it. I'm sorry, if you're talking about border collies with talent, using a technique that does not allow a gathering breed to gather, possibly/probably destroying the instinct to do so, is not "out of the box," it's counter productive. I don't know how anybody can call such a counter-intuitive practice effective. If a dog can withstand that kind of training, and still end up a *truly* good gathering dog when things get as tough as they get, well, we all need to be breeding to that dog. Because that is one resilient SOB.

 

The example of teaching weave poles through some new "out of the box" thinking technique is not a good analogy. Dogs have no inborn instinct to do weave poles. Or obedience or agility in general for that matter. Many of Marc's methods seem to stem from teaching horses, that also have little or no inborn instinct to do what is being trained. I was a long time horse trainer. I see the difference.

 

When I first started out, a big hat said to me something to the effect of, "The most common and worst mistake beginners and novices make in trying to train their dogs is that they don't allow their dogs completely cover the sheep." This is probably been the most consistently true thing I've ever heard about learning to train border collies to work sheep.

 

I don't understand how Jan considers herself more qualified to evaluate the success of MC's method than people who actually walk the walk. Weave poles, maybe. Once again, it's wise to stick to your area of expertise before making "expert" judgements.

[Rave]

Who is LS?

 

Me.

[Debbie Meier]

If a dog can withstand that kind of training, and still end up a *truly* good gathering dog when things get as tough as they get, well, we all need to be breeding to that dog. Because that is one resilient SOB.

 

That's an interesting concept....

[Rave]

The example of teaching weave poles through some new "out of the box" thinking technique is not a good analogy. Dogs have no inborn instinct to do weave poles. Or obedience or agility in general for that matter. Many of Marc's methods seem to stem from teaching horses, that also have little or no inborn instinct to do what is being trained. I was a long time horse trainer. I see the difference.

 

Just curious.. what if you were training a dog with little to no natural instinct? Would it be a good method to use with that particular dog?

[Denise Wall]

That's an interesting concept....

 

I think they key here is "still end up a *truly* good gathering dog when things get as tough as they get. " I'm not talking about arena trials.

 

It's the same as the concept as when you see a dog that has managed to be a really good one despite its handler, it's worth looking at for breeding.

[Debbie Meier]

Just curious.. what if you were training a dog with little to no natural instinct? Would it be a good method to use with that particular dog?

 

You can teach it to go left, right or to walk straight up, but the lack of instinct would mean that you have to mechanically place it relative to the sheep and tell it when it needs to flank (and how far or when to stop) to maintain control, and I doubt that you would be able to handle to dog when things got tough, you just would not be able to direct it as quickly as the action that needs to be countered happens. Would work ok for small lot work where your just using the dog to apply pressure in one place and the fencing does the rest of the work, or getting around on super dog broke sheep.

 

ETA: It could be related to taking a pleasure horse to the cutting pen, they may figure out that you want them to track the cow and show a little cow, but your always going to have to be ready to help them, now if you were on a well bred cow horse, once they get cowy you just have to worry about putting a stop on them and making sure that they don't charge or turn tail.

[Debbie Meier]

I think they key here is "still end up a *truly* good gathering dog when things get as tough as they get. " I'm not talking about arena trials.

 

I didn't say you were talking about arena trials, I justed stated that it was an interesting concept.

[Denise Wall]

Just curious.. what if you were training a dog with little to no natural instinct? Would it be a good method to use with that particular dog?

 

I really don't know. Maybe. Especially with other breeds, like driving breeds. That fact is I wouldn't mess with a dog that has little or no instinct. I've done my time trying to think of ways to train things that aren't there when I trained horses. That's why I so enjoy training good well-bred border collies. I like breeding for and developing what's already there.

 

Years and years ago in an interview in what was the UK's Working Sheepdog News at the time, a top trainer and handler was asked about "putting" pace in a dog. What he said was so basic, yet so memorable for me. "The easiest way to get something is just to breed for it."

[Denise Wall]

I didn't say you were talking about arena trials, I justed stated that it was an interesting concept.

 

I know you didn't. Just trying to clarify my point.

[Denise Wall]

ETA: It could be related to taking a pleasure horse to the cutting pen, they may figure out that you want them to track the cow and show a little cow, but your always going to have to be ready to help them, now if you were on a well bred cow horse, once they get cowy you just have to worry about putting a stop on them and making sure that they don't charge or turn tail.

 

Thanks for reminding me of this, Deb. I mis-spoke before. There are some types of horses doing things that are bred into them. Absolutely. I rode jumpers, three day event horses, and dressage. Although there are definitely differences in talent and aptitude, and horses may be seen spontaneously performing certain movements of dressage in the pasture, or even jumping the odd fence on their own, they mostly will not be doing these things unless you make them. Whereas many a well bred little puppy will naturally cast out, go around behind the sheep and bring them to you with no training at all.

 

Check out Robin's Bart, bred by Laura Hicks, first time on sheep, at 12 weeks:

 

[stockdogranch]

a top trainer and handler was asked about "putting" pace in a dog. What he said was so basic, yet so memorable for me. "The easiest way to get something is just to breed for it."

YES!! I hear so many people out here (Open handlers) talking about "putting pace on a dog," and, frankly, I don't get it. Pace comes when the dog is correctly reading/feeling its stock, and adjusting itself accordingly. I know it is absolutely one of the traits to be bred for, and I also think, to some extent, it can be something one can help a dog to learn/develop. But it's not just "pace" you're helping the dog to learn--it's reading and feeling the pressure of the stock,

A

ETA: But, if you've never worked with a pup who has this hard-wired in, it's a very difficult concept to understand.

[SoloRiver]

Clicker training is exactly what I would use if I were trying to move stock with a dog who had no natural talent or interest whatsoever. But I would have to be really, really damn good at reading stock to get anywhere with this kind of a project. Sounds like a good training exercise for handlers. Hey, anyone got say, a Lab handy I can borrow for my clicker herding project? I could use the practice.

[ShoresDog]

Hey, anyone got say, a Lab handy I can borrow for my clicker herding project? I could use the practice.

Hee hee. Just off topic a little.... At the New Years trial here, Amanda Milliken said, and I quote, Bev Lambert is such a good handler she could win with a poodle!

[juliepoudrier]

I say let's find a poodle for Melanie to clicker train and then see if we can convince Bev to run it!

 

J.

[Sue R]

I say let's find a poodle for Melanie to clicker train and then see if we can convince Bev to run it!

 

J.

Only if it's white, has a fancy-dancy poodle cut coiffure, and pink-painted toenails (to match the pink bow holding up all that topknot on its head).

[jdarling]

Here's one of Jan's videos of one of her pups on sheep. Is this the method Marc Christopher teaches?

 

[Pearse]

Here's one of Jan's videos of one of her pups on sheep. Is this the method Marc Christopher teaches?

 

 

I sure hope not because the object lesson that I would take home from that exercise were I an eighteen week old pup is "no you can't work the sheep. You can only look at the sheep.

 

If you're going to take a dog to sheep, let the dog work the sheep. If you think the dog is too young to work the sheep (and 18 weeks is probably too young), don't take the dog to sheep.

 

This is a daft argument anyway. It doesn't matter whether someone describes their training method as "traditional", "innovative", "New Age", "revolutionary", or "The Greatest Thing Until the Second Coming". What matters is results. Anyone these days can put up a good looking web site, make a couple of videos, even write a book. There's a guy on the TV every night telling me how I can become a millionaire buying houses with "NO MONEY DOWN" (he yells a lot). But, I haven't actually met anyone yet who bought his books and DVD's and became a millionaire. Similarly, there's a lot of people these days telling me they can train my dog and me in new and exciting ways, but I've never seen their names in the top 20 at the big trials and I don't know any of their students or dogs they have trained who have won any of the big trials. The people whose names I do see on those lists, and whose names come up talking to people who need good dogs to make their livings, all seem to have been around dogs and stock a long time and seem to do things much the way they have been done for a long time. What that tells me is, there are no shortcuts in this game. It takes time and study to be good at it, and well bred dogs need no fancy training. They just need to be patiently shown what is expected of them, and allowed to discover how to do it.

 

If I want a dog that will win USBCHA style sheepdog trials, I'll go watch a bunch of trials, see dogs I like who win trials, find out who trained them (dog and handler), and maybe listen to that person.

 

I I want a dog to work my sheep or cattle at home, I'll go talk to people who have dogs who work sheep or cattle for a living, ask them who trained their dogs, and go listen to them.

 

I probably won't listen to someone who tells me that the best way to teach a dog to work stock is to not allow it to work stock. I may not know much about this dog stuff but I know that makes very little sense.

 

Pearse

[Rave]

I read up on Mark's methods, and watched some videos, then went out with my favorite non-BC to apply said methods (after all, this method is for all breeds). Look for yourself.... the amazing herding bulldog! I didn't even need a clicker (although I had one ready just in case!). I think I'll hold a clinic now.