My dog is afraid of friendly dogs?

[shanty]

After all the insight I've gained on the board I'm having much better success with my dog in social groups. However, I'm starting to notice a trend and wondering if anyone else has noticed something similar.

 

Truman is great with people and likes other dogs but tends to get possessive or rough with some dogs - particularly young males. Aside from that, if the dogs run with him he's fine. What I've really picked up on though is his aversion to 'friendly' dogs - mostly labs and retrievers. For some reason he's totally cool with them if they meet on leash but at the off leash park he seems to interpret their bouncy, in-your-face friendliness as hostile or just too intense for his liking.

 

Today he met again with some dogs he's known for nearly a year. While he does better one-on-one with each, in the group he snarked at two of them. After the first episode I called him over, sat him down and he dropped the growl. He also laid down at my feet and looked up at me (that was a surprise in itself). Then I let him go, but tried to give him things to do - seems idle dogs are the devils playground After the second episode (over an abandoned watering bowl) I had him sit again, he cooled off quick and then we left.

 

Any input? Do you find timid/fearful dogs more afraid of friendly dogs? Any suggestions on getting him comfortable in their presence? I already keep him away from balls and other objects when around other dogs, but since he seems to want to play I'm wondering whether he can really play safely with these dogs or if I need to keep him alone or only one-on-one with dogs in the park.

[nancy in AZ]

In dog parlance, she's saying those dogs are being rude, and ignoring her signals to approach in a more mannerly fashion. Not an uncommon reaction, especially where labs are concerned. She's perfectly within her rights to express her feelings and tell them to back off, IMHO, as long as she doesn't escalate her admonishments.

[mbc1963]

What I've really picked up on though is his aversion to 'friendly' dogs - mostly labs and retrievers. For some reason he's totally cool with them if they meet on leash but at the off leash park he seems to interpret their bouncy, in-your-face friendliness as hostile or just too intense for his liking.

 

I think what you're calling "friendly," he's calling "obnoxious."

 

Today he met again with some dogs he's known for nearly a year. While he does better one-on-one with each, in the group he snarked at two of them. After the first episode I called him over, sat him down and he dropped the growl. He also laid down at my feet and looked up at me (that was a surprise in itself). Then I let him go, but tried to give him things to do - seems idle dogs are the devils playground After the second episode (over an abandoned watering bowl) I had him sit again, he cooled off quick and then we left.

 

Any input? Do you find timid/fearful dogs more afraid of friendly dogs? Any suggestions on getting him comfortable in their presence? I already keep him away from balls and other objects when around other dogs, but since he seems to want to play I'm wondering whether he can really play safely with these dogs or if I need to keep him alone or only one-on-one with dogs in the park.

 

I got my dog at about 2, with his patterns already strongly established. At this point, I can tell from a football field's distance whether Buddy is going to like a dog or dislike him. A big part of it is the calmness and respect with which they meet. I can get him to tolerate most any dog, if we meet slowly, from across the street, and have a bunch of nice, calm interactions until Buddy is comfortable. If the other dog is standoffish and aloof and doesn't get near him, Buddy will sometimes whine with wanting to interact.

 

On the other hand, if a big, bouncy, "happy" dog comes charging toward us, I can tell that Buddy will want to put him in his place. I try to avoid those fast-hard meets as much as possible, because they put me in the middle of a dog fight. My worst nightmare is being charged by a dog who'll choose to fight Buddy rather than heed his warnings and back off. http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...mp;#entry302516

 

So, my suggestion would be to manage his interactions. I'm not sure my dog would ever, ever be successful at a dog park. He's much too anxious and watchful to relax when there are lots of strange dogs and movement. I'm fine with that. I let Buddy loose if we meet a dog I know he loves; otherwise, I politely say, "My dog might not be friendly." Many owners will be helpful and allow the dogs to meet with a little air space - Buddy has many friends he's met that way. If the owner doesn't want to deal with Buddy, that's OK, too. The only ones who bug me are the ones who let their dogs bound about, using the excuse, "Oh, he's friendly!" as though it's my fault when things go bad. Grrr.

 

Mary

[Liz P]

I think what you're calling "friendly," he's calling "obnoxious."

 

Exactly! I have found BCs to be very proper. Some of them can't stand other dogs who lack good manners and will snark at them.

[shanty]

In dog parlance, she's saying those dogs are being rude, and ignoring her signals to approach in a more mannerly fashion. Not an uncommon reaction, especially where labs are concerned. She's perfectly within her rights to express her feelings and tell them to back off, IMHO, as long as she doesn't escalate her admonishments.

I've felt the same way, but I guess I find it difficult to explain to the the 'friendly' dogs owner that their dog is really causing the problem. On the other hand HE (I know he's a pretty boy!) probably shouldn't be loose when the other dogs are comfortable playing their way and he can't fit in. I'll just have to keep to 'polite' dogs (I feel so much better with that description!)

 

I think what you're calling "friendly," he's calling "obnoxious."

I got my dog at about 2, with his patterns already strongly established. At this point, I can tell from a football field's distance whether Buddy is going to like a dog or dislike him. A big part of it is the calmness and respect with which they meet. I can get him to tolerate most any dog, if we meet slowly, from across the street, and have a bunch of nice, calm interactions until Buddy is comfortable. If the other dog is standoffish and aloof and doesn't get near him, Buddy will sometimes whine with wanting to interact.

 

On the other hand, if a big, bouncy, "happy" dog comes charging toward us, I can tell that Buddy will want to put him in his place. I try to avoid those fast-hard meets as much as possible, because they put me in the middle of a dog fight. My worst nightmare is being charged by a dog who'll choose to fight Buddy rather than heed his warnings and back off.

This is a very true description of how he reacts. I got Truman when he was 13 weeks old and have tried very hard to socialize him well, however, it just might be the style of play which he may never be comfortable with unless he spent a great deal more time with other dogs than the few times a week we go to the dog park.

 

Exactly! I have found BCs to be very proper. Some of them can't stand other dogs who lack good manners and will snark at them.

Love it! Love it! He IS proper! In fact, we met one lovely Australian Shepherd/BC cross with a heart condition the other day - after a round of running her owner had her lay down and I told Truman to do the same and he happily complied to sit with her until she was up again. He is also groomed by a Pomeranian breeder who's a friend of mine and he is ABSOLUTELY not allowed to play with the babies so he's learned to stand still or lay down while they climb/chew/pounce on him while he patiently enjoys them this way. He's definitely not a jumpy or aggressive dog in any other place.

 

Thanks for the responses. Definitely getting a better handle on how his apparant 'aggression' isn't oppossed to his sweet, gentle self.

[MicheleS.]

I've had the same experience with both my aussie and my border collie, usually centered around labs. All I can say is that I do believe my dogs do think that happy, bouncy, in-your-face greeting is very rude and are not afraid to say so.

My BC, Chase, has a lab friend in his agility class. Chase is a shy, sensitive type of dog and when he first met his lab friend in agility I wasn't so sure they were going end up as friends. Eventually Chase got used to and understands that the lab means no harm but every once in a while, if the lab gets too rude and pushy, Chase will growl. Still every week, the lab is the one he really wants to see first

I'm not a big fan of dog parks and I do control the interactions my dogs have with other dogs, especially with my aussie. I try to pick and choose which dogs I think would be best suited for them to meet and play.

I agree, it's hard to tell another person (for me at least) that their dog is a bit rude. However, if I have to, I usually just tell the other person that my dog is a bit snippy so I'd rather they not meet.

Michele

& Gypsy

& Chase

[bc4pack]

Anyone have S. Clothier's article "He Just Wants To Say "Hi!' handy???

[mbc1963]

Oh, yeah! Excellent suggestion! I should carry this with me.

 

http://www.positiveway.us/Downloads/HeJustWantsToSayHi.pdf

 

Mary

[MicheleS.]

Got my curiosity going with the article you mentioned. I did an internet search and was able to find this article without too much trouble. It looks like a reprint in a newsletter however I think you can find the article at flying dog press. WOW!! Great information. Wish I could hand it out to every person who has told me their dog 'just wants to say hi'.

Michele

& Gypsy

& Chase

[kajarrel]

I agree, it's hard to tell another person (for me at least) that their dog is a bit rude. However, if I have to, I usually just tell the other person that my dog is a bit snippy so I'd rather they not meet.

 

Don't you think both of these things are probably true? I've always found my border collies to be a little more intolerant of "rudeness" than other dogs and also find that different breeds tend to have different comfort levels with physical play, personal space, eye contact, etc. Problems tend to occur when the breeds are thrown together. I think this is apparent when you have a large group of border collies - it's funny how well they interact. Conversely, I have on occasion taken my dogs (border collies, GSD, bagel) to "play" with a pack of foxhounds and the different styles are pretty interesting and apparent.

 

Kim

[Root Beer]

I always find it extremely amusing that my dog, Maddie, HATES Labs. She loves Border Collies and most of the herding breeds. She enjoys the company of most dogs, even German Shepherds - the rougher they play with her, the better!! But she cannot tolerate Labs. I notice that she gets her dander up sometimes when they are just walking by her!

 

She's only half Border Collie. The other half is Lab. Go figure.

[MicheleS.]

I do think that telling people my dog(s) is a bit snippy and I'd rather they not meet is true! Especially my aussie. I can usually tell right away which dogs she would like to meet and be okay meeting (just me knowing her and how she is and her body language and by the way the other dog is acting). The BC tends to be more tolerant. He wants to meet all other dogs but then he is usually so right on the mark when he has to give a *chill out* growl.

Very interesting that they all have their ways of playing. I am sure the labs are in heaven when they are playing with other labs!

Michele

& Gypsy

& Chase

[Ooky]

Odin was to the point where he was almost too friendly (read obnoxious, yes I can admit it!) with other dogs. He is an only dog and as much as I tried to socialize him outside the house as a puppy, he wasn't developing good manners as quickly as I'd like as a young adult, especially after nearly 2 months crate rest at a young age. Now, my dream dog-meet is when I meet someone who has a dog that doesn't mind playing, but won't tolerate rudeness from Odin. The owners apologize to me when their dogs snarks (harmlessly) and I say, NO, this is good for him. And it is.

 

There are a few neighborhood dogs, one an older male (HUGE mastiff mix who loves me), and one an older, very dominant bitch, that have really helped us with this goal. Odin's behavior has gotten much better in very few play sessions. It worked so much easier and faster than when I tried redirecting, controlling, and inhibiting his behavior, and the other dogs sound mean during some snarks but have never bit, so I know it is safe. They also get happy to play with him so they are not stressed like Mary's Buddy might be. I figured when I was the one trying to fix the behavior, all Odin was getting was "Mom said I did something wrong. I have to stay here now until she lets me play again!!" In other words, the actual concept I was trying to teach him was absent from the communication between us. And even if he had finally figured something he was doing to the other dog was the wrong thing, I can't teach him what the right thing is, not being a dog. These dogs are able to tell him, "knock it off - it's pathetic and annoying the way you get in my face. THIS is how we should meet, you dolt." Then when he heeds this and starts presenting submissive and calming signals, they reward him with fun doggy play.

[shanty]

Oh, yeah! Excellent suggestion! I should carry this with me.

 

http://www.positiveway.us/Downloads/HeJustWantsToSayHi.pdf

 

Mary

 

Thanks for the article. I'm just loving the information here. I unfortunately did think that somehow my dog was not very 'good' because he wasn't as comfortable with bold, in-your-face introductions even to dogs he knew well. How it's all starting to make sense now!

 

Today we opted out of the dog park just because I recognize that the dogs there at this time typically are too bold for his liking. Funny enough, I would never have insisted my more reserved child put up with bold kids that took her paint brush away or constantly hugged her against her will, but I somehow expected Truman to love this kind of interaction with other dogs.

 

I also like the article's point that we need to protect our dogs, and that means not making them deal with 'rude' behavior on their own. Like the Golden's owner I kept putting Truman into situations and correcting him when he got upset because I thought it was his problem. I also blame myself for allowing HIS rude behavior since when he sees 'rude' dogs he sometimes runs them down, growling just to lay down the law, that was my mistake and part of my frustration of 'why does he act that way?' now I see he felt obligated to put them in their place because he knew I wouldn't protect him.

 

I've changed my tactics lately and even though we had two episodes in one day, now that I read the article I think I responded well. Instead of telling him to 'leave it' which only works as a preventative, I called him over and rewarded him for coming. Remarkably his response was as mentioned in my first post - he relaxed, laid down and looked up at me rather than growling and staring at the dog as I pulled him aside in past experience.

 

I'm definitely going to put all this information to use at dog agility where more than one owner has 'rude' dogs. One lady whose German Shepherd runs around marking all the equipment allowed her dog to get behind mine, sniff him while my dog was facing ahead and as I kept moving forward she'd keep following as her dog pulled her. I eventually said it would be better if we could have a little more space and she looked at me as if I'd been MOST incosiderate, but she did back off!

 

Really appreciating all the input. Thanks for the posts.

[shanty]

Now, my dream dog-meet is when I meet someone who has a dog that doesn't mind playing, but won't tolerate rudeness from Odin. The owners apologize to me when their dogs snarks (harmlessly) and I say, NO, this is good for him. And it is.

 

I feel the same way and have tried to find suitable dogs. I guess my problem lies in the fact that the time I go to the park its generally young, goofy males. Truman much prefers older females and puppies and I like it when the older girls 'instruct' him on proper etiquette with females!

 

Do you know what I have been told though? That he is dominant and that he likes females and puppies because they are more submissive! I've also been told that his affection for humans and consequent 'attacks' on the owner's dogs when they come to partake in the love fest is more 'dominant' behaviour - that he is in fact 'claiming' the owners.

 

Now I feel it's just his true, gentle self that leads him to human, female and puppy play and his lack of tolerance for young males that make him nervous.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Just to add my 2 cents in. I don't really think dog parks are the best place for dogs to get play time and socialization with other dogs. Mostly because there are a lot of idiot people out there with dogs that have no manners. The ideal place, IMO for proper dog play would be a good doggy day care where the staff can find appropriate play mates/styles for your dog. Of course it's not cheap and dog daycares aren't everywhere, but it would be my first option. We do go to the off-leash dog park near my house, but it is a rare occasion that I actually let my dog off leash. She does have space issues with other dogs and she knows how to get her self out of an uncomfortable situation, but 9 times out of 10 the dog that won't leave us alone usually has no owner in sight (or they are talking on their cell phone). A good dog daycare will be able to assess your dogs play style and attitude and match him up with appropriate play mates and they'll have a blast!

[mbc1963]

Odin was to the point where he was almost too friendly (read obnoxious, yes I can admit it!) with other dogs. He is an only dog and as much as I tried to socialize him outside the house as a puppy, he wasn't developing good manners as quickly as I'd like as a young adult, especially after nearly 2 months crate rest at a young age. Now, my dream dog-meet is when I meet someone who has a dog that doesn't mind playing, but won't tolerate rudeness from Odin. The owners apologize to me when their dogs snarks (harmlessly) and I say, NO, this is good for him. And it is.

 

You know, curiously enough, Buddy got "corrected" for being too friendly last week. I saw one of his beloved friends, a dog he worships, so I took Buddy off-leash to let him go say hi. He bounded forward, but when he got toward the other dog, he got put in his place. The owner was all apologetic, but I recognized it for what it was: one dog getting quickly overwhelmed by a too-quick greeting.

 

Buddy knew exactly what had happened, too, and for all his dog reactiveness, backed off a bit and immediately tried to re-engage in play. They frolicked a little, and the other dog snarked again a little, but Buddy's happy demeanor at seeing his friend didn't change: he had absolute understanding that the other dog wasn't trying to kill him or start a fight, but was just saying, "Dude, back off a bit!"

 

Mary

[shanty]

Just to add my 2 cents in. I don't really think dog parks are the best place for dogs to get play time and socialization with other dogs. Mostly because there are a lot of idiot people out there with dogs that have no manners. The ideal place, IMO for proper dog play would be a good doggy day care where the staff can find appropriate play mates/styles for your dog. ...A good dog daycare will be able to assess your dogs play style and attitude and match him up with appropriate play mates and they'll have a blast!

 

I can see why you recommend this but I don't have tons of money for daycare (I do have time for him myself which is good). I know one lady with a 9 year old female collie we sometimes walk late at night with. This works well. Otherwise, I don't have 'dog friends' except the Pom lady. Nuff said!

 

I am boarding him with a wonderful dog walker for a week in the summer even though I have free accomodations with a friend at a farm (he'll be staying there a few days too.) I specifically kept my booking because she was matching him with a female collie for the week he's staying there. She's also taken him for 'social' walks just to be nice when she had a good match for him, but that only worked out once, maybe twice.

 

I am definitely using other methods of exercise for him including walks in the woods, on the many dykes around here and for bike rides. I just wanted to keep the social thing going because he generally likes other dogs and I thought he needed to play to stay socialized.