3 steps forward 2 steps back

[Jedismom]

I'm a little depressed ...I have to admit. Sigh...

 

I've had Jedi for a little over a year now and even though he's come a long way (no longer freaks out at palm fronds, light poles, or men wearing hats) he's still essentially Jedi. Meaning that he's still essentially a cautious...leaning towards fearful dog. He has now decided that every dog he meets is a huge beastly enemy to be lunged, screeched, and growled at. This is a dog that would always just ignore other dogs we were passing, and that I could take to pet fairs with a hundred other dogs walking around. There really isn't any one event that I can think of that changed this. It was a gradual thing that started happening over the last 2 mo. I'm trying to desensitize using treats but when the dog approaches he just doesn't see me or care about the treats. When I've been able to get him close enough to meet the dog then he's ok, and was able to play with a neighbor's poodle last night. He doesn't want to hurt the dog. He's really just a big wus. He's nuts about his green ball so I thought I'd try distracting him with that next time. I don't know... I was doing some research today on calming methods and came across this piece on walking calming ovals. Anyone ever heard of it or tried it?

 

http://www.gentlepets.com/index.html

 

http://www.dogwise.com/forums/messageview....p;threadid=4261

 

It's so frustrating sometimes. I guess I thought that if I provided him a good home with activity, routine, rules, and affection, that he'd become this calm, confident, dog. Was that an unrealistic expectation? My ultimate goal was never just less fearful. The only time I ever saw him approach a new situation without stress and caution was ....well...his lessons on sheep. Perhaps we should go back to that. He hates obedience classes and right now agility will put him over the top and I don't think he'd like it. Yup a bc that wouldn't like agility.

 

Any suggestions or just good mojo would be greatly appreciated.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

It sounds like something that could have been adapted from TTouch. Really, there is no harm in trying I guess, they show you how to do it right on the site. If you are going to go this route, I'd suggest picking up a book on TTouch. It's neat stuff.

 

How often does Jedi get to play off-leash with other dogs? Could he just have some frustration? Could you bring him to doggy day care and have him matched up with other dogs with similar personalities for some play time/socialization? Are there any classes around you that cater to reacitve dogs? Those types of classes are usually good classes to take because they work on dog-dog issues, but they also add in some confidence building exercises too.

 

Here is a site on fearful dogs, this may offer some insight. http://www.fearfuldogs.com/

 

I don't think you had an unrealistic expectation for him but sometimes shy/nervous dogs don't get over it 100% (perhaps it's in the wiring). I had such hopes and dreams for my own dog, but I doubt she'll ever be my agility champion. 2 years of solid work and we still haven't made it into an agility class. I've accepted that these situations may just be too much for her to handle. Fortunately, she loves to learn, so we take a fun class here and a fun class there. No pressure at all, but it gives us a chance to work around other dogs in a controlled environment. As long as she's happy, I'm happy.

[urge to herd]

My Samantha is shy, and Shoshone is downright fearful. My only experience of dogs was with outgoing, fairly confident ones, I wasn't expecting at all to have to deal with shyness/timidity. Sami is 14 and Shonie is 13 or maybe more. In both cases, they have more confidence than when they came to us, but still are not comfortable in a lot of different situations.

 

I do think it's the wiring, and that there's only so far that they are capable of going. If Jedi likes sheep herding and leaves his worries behind when he's taking lessons, by all means, go back to it.

 

I'd love to have that calm, confident dog that I could take anywhere. Maybe next time.

 

Ruth

[PSmitty]

Georgia, I belong to another dog forum (non BC) and some folks over there use and like those calming ovals. I'm sorry Jedi seems to be regressing right now...I can totally relate to having a weird, fearful dog (my Jack), and I know it's not easy. You really have done all the right things, I hope you don't feel you haven't. I believe dogs are just going to be what they are, and we can try to train and desensitize them, but in the end, some stuff just has to be managed, and that's all you can do.

 

I don't have a whole lot of advice to offer, but yeah, why not try the green ball if he's not responding to treats? I think it's all about thresholds, and if Jedi gets so worked up that he's not responding to you or treats, then he's too far gone, the ball might not work, either.

 

With Jack, in the beginning, we tried the "watch me" stuff, rewarding him with treats if we could get him to look at us (most of the time we couldn't). Then we just started avoiding all situtations where he'd have to be in close proximity to other dogs. Not a solution, but it just stressed us all out too much. As you noted with Jedi, the only place Jack is confident and doesn't react to other dogs is out at Angie's. I think that's helped some, as we can now walk him in the park, and though we don't ever get too close to other dogs, we can manage him without the lunging and carrying on.

 

Good luck and hang in there!

[Krambambuli]

Oh yeah, I hear you! Sky is very fearful and timid, and shows moderate fear aggression at times. I knew she was timid when I decided to bring her home from the (kill)shelter, but I too figured, a lot of love, consistency, and training would be able to "cure" her problems. Well, the only thing so far that's been cured is me and my dreams of "my dog". ))

 

Sky has come a long way, and she is sweet and funny and loving with us, but she will never be that happy-go-lucky dog I pictured in my mind. And seriously, after reading about so many dogs and their problems on this board, maybe that's just a myth anyway .... )) (just kidding people!)

 

Love your dog for what he is, that's the only advice I can give you. And I have plenty of "frustrated" days, too, so I am not just saying that. I am very glad we took Sky in, because she would most likely not be alive any more, and she has wiggled her way so deep into our hearts, we can't imagine life without her. She has taught me so much, above all patience (which I thought I had in spades, hahaha) and acceptance. She is who she is, and I am helping her to go as far as she can, but I know now there are limits. It's ok.

 

Good vibes coming your way!!!!

[Root Beer]

He has now decided that every dog he meets is a huge beastly enemy to be lunged, screeched, and growled at. This is a dog that would always just ignore other dogs we were passing, and that I could take to pet fairs with a hundred other dogs walking around. There really isn't any one event that I can think of that changed this. It was a gradual thing that started happening over the last 2 mo.

 

Sometimes we never really understand the reasons why certain things become triggers to our dogs. Jedi could have perceived something about another dog at some point that you couldn't be aware of - something about another dog's body language or the way he or she approached Jedi and that could have sensitized him to the presence of all approaching dogs.

 

I'm trying to desensitize using treats but when the dog approaches he just doesn't see me or care about the treats.

 

Desensitization can only work if the dog is below threshold. One of the ways that you can tell that the dog is below threshold is that he or she actually is able to still interact with you normally and take treats. If the dog is fixated or having a reaction to the other dog, by default the process can't work and you need to provide your dog with distance from the trigger (the other dogs).

 

You might want to try backing up - working farther away from the other dogs. When I was starting desensitization with Speedy, I used to take him around in the car, park, and feed him for watching people with dogs, cyclists, etc. (those were his triggers). Once he was calm and confident in the car, we started to work outside, but with good distance.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that it doesn't matter how comfortable Jedi was with other dogs before. If he can't handle close proximity right now, he can't.

 

I don't know... I was doing some research today on calming methods and came across this piece on walking calming ovals. Anyone ever heard of it or tried it?

 

I've never heard of it, but I did watch the video on the first site that you posted. Just from what I saw, it strikes me as something that has potential to be helpful in certain contexts.

 

One thing that would be very important would be to make sure that Jedi really does find the ovals comforting when you do them in places where he isn't worried. If he doesn't find them comforting in those contexts, that sort of thing can actually be stressful in situations where you want to use it to calm him down.

 

The other thing is to make sure that when you do start to use them in stressful situations, you will need to keep enough distance for him to be comfortable when you first start. Kind of like desensitization - in fact use of this technique would be a form of desensitization/coutner conditioning.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure that this is a technique that I would choose. I like the CU techniques a lot and would probably tend to lean toward use of a mat, the Look at That game, and use of a crate in the way that I'm using it with Dean, as I described in the thread that I just posted in the Agility section the other day.

 

But I can see this having potential to be helpful.

 

It's so frustrating sometimes. I guess I thought that if I provided him a good home with activity, routine, rules, and affection, that he'd become this calm, confident, dog. Was that an unrealistic expectation? My ultimate goal was never just less fearful.

 

It is frustrating. When you see how confident and comfortable and happy the dog is at home and when relaxed, it is utterly maddening to watch him crumble mentally in the presence of a trigger. Fear is insidious and it takes a lot of acceptance, planning, and mental discipline on the part of the handler to stick with it when it seems like it will never get better.

 

But it can be done.

 

For some dogs, expecting that the things that you are providing will produce calm and confidence is unrealistic. It's not an unrealistic hope, but it can be an unrealistic expectation. There are dogs who need more than that, and there are dogs who will never get completely "over it". Of course, you have no way of knowing that until you get to know the dog.

 

Even though your goal was not just less fearful, it sounds like now, that needs to be the case. The good news is that I've found that when I put my own goals aside and truly focus on helping the dog learn to deal with and overcome fear, opportunities to do some of the things that I originally wanted come back later on.

 

I wish you the best with Jedi. As frustrating as it can be, I've found very little more satisfying than helping a fearful dog. It's more than worth it in the long run.

[claire24]

It definitely can be frustrating, I know. Aveda developed this habit now, and the new puppy across the street definitely isn't helping matters much. Lately whenever she sees another dog/ squirrel/ something she fixates on, I turn around and walk the other way. She still tries to turn back to see whatever it is, but I can tell she's learning that this reaction won't get results. I don't let her greet other dogs on walks anymore and won't until she can be respectful. It's a slow process but hopefully it's just a phase.

[MrRipley]

I would try the calming ovals. I have been instructed to do this also, when Rip starts to get overly aroused seeing other dogs run. It's about breaking the pattern of their reaction. Fortunately Rip's reactivity is not based in fear but it's similar in that when you're working with him, you need to keep him under threshold. Jedi can't think once he's crossed to threshold into reacting. Chances are, he shows signals that he is going to react, before he really goes ballistic. It's THOSE signals you need to be aware of. I'd put him back on sheep, too! If he was doing well, it can only help his overall confidence.

 

Good luck, I feel for you!

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Honestly, I'm not sure that this is a technique that I would choose. I like the CU techniques a lot and would probably tend to lean toward use of a mat, the Look at That game, and use of a crate in the way that I'm using it with Dean, as I described in the thread that I just posted in the Agility section the other day.

 

Personally, I've found the LAT game to be very effective opposed to "watch me". They are both useful tools to have in different settings, but I find with my dog that if I allow her to look at what she's freaking out over she starts to relax faster. Especially if it's another dog walking past our house. After about 4 or 5 rewards she doesn't care anymore and she's giving me full attention for more treats anyway. It also always helps to be up-beat and happy when I'm telling her to look making it truly a fun game for her to play.

[Alaska]

First, here's a big dose of mojo and sympathy. You deserve it.

 

Now, here are a few thoughts. "3 steps forward 2 steps back" is a perfect description of what happens when a dog is constantly being pushed over threshold. I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but it's a useful image. A dog like Jedi will generally gain confidence much faster and more reliably if he stays pretty much continuously below threshold. Fearful behavior can become a habit, and the less chance to practice, the less that fearful behavior becomes ingrained as a habit. Try setting a goal of keeping Jedi below threshold for an entire day, week, month, whatever. Think about how you will do that, then see if you can pull it off. I bet you will learn new things about your dog in the process. Meanwhile, Jedi will get to be relaxed and happy the whole time. Think about how different he will feel after a whole day, week, month, whatever of just being relaxed and happy. Pretty big confidence booster, that.

 

Second, you and Jedi sound like perfect candidates for the Control Unleashed approach. If you don't already have it, I would get the book, and the DVD if you can possibly afford it.

 

Third, I agree with Kristine that you need to stay focused on what Jedi is like now, not what he used to be like or used to be able to tolerate. Dogs live in the present. We're not very good at that, but it's a skill we can learn from them, and mastering it helps our interactions with them.

 

Fourth, I would try to think about things in context, not isolation. Rather than "Jedi is nuts about his green ball," it might be more helpful to think "Jedi is nuts about his green ball at home and in the park, but in agility class he seems to distracted to play with it." Dogs, we're told, don't generalize well. For us, a green ball is a green ball, or a the poodle next door is the poodle next door, wherever we encounter it, but for a dog it can be a whole new object when it's encountered in a different setting. Realizing that you may be generalizing when Jedi is not could help you become more sensitive to his differing thresholds in different settings.

 

And finally, why did you give up on herding? It may not be an overnight fix for the problems you describe, but it can sure go a long ways in that direction.

[Jedismom]

Thanks everyone for your very well-written and thought out replies. They really helped and got me thinking. There is a Control Unleashed class offered about 40 min. away from me. I will sign Jedi up this summer. Since I'm off for the summer, I have the time to work on this. I have been successful using "Watch me" and "Look at that" with Cadi, so far, not so successful with Jedi. I'll keep at it. I'm also going to try the calming ovals...it can't hurt. I will also start walking him by himself, without Cadi just in case she's transferring her feelings about dogs to him. This is entirely possible. TTouch also sounds interesting. I stopped the sheep herding because after the initial excitement of seeing what he could do, progress was very slow, and I felt that unless I had sheep that he could work on a regular basis we wouldn't get very far. Perhaps I should just think of it as something he enjoys and not be concerned about how far we get with it.

 

I really don't keep Jedi over threshold most of the time. The opposite is true. He is under threshold most of the time. We mostly walk at times when there aren't alot of people walking, we rarely go to the dog park and only if there are only a couple of dogs there, no more boarding if we need to go away. We have few visitors. He is a calm, happy go lucky dog at home. He begins to "worry" anytime we leave home. I think that perhaps I've built so much routine in his life and not enough changes, that he doesn't know how to handle change. Just a thought.... Kristine, I like what you did with Speedy, desensitizing him in the car at different places and then out of the car.

 

I'll just take it one day at a time with the Jedi of the moment!

 

Georgia

[denice]

Here is just a thought. What are your feeling and thoughts when you are out walking? If another dog is approaching do you get tense because you are expecting a reaction from him that you concerns you. My thought is that he may be picking up on your tension. I am becoming increasing aware that dog pick up and know many more thnings than we give them credit for. I would try walking him past other dogs with a calm reassured attitude, no hesitation, you have things under contol... - "No problem, we are great, we are enjoying the walk, no worries ect"

 

There is a really good book called 'The Dog Listen" by Jan Fennell She talks about many dogs and owners with "problems' and how she has helped them resolve different issues.

 

Denice

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Perhaps I should just think of it as something he enjoys and not be concerned about how far we get with it.

 

This is the exact mentality that I had to switch to, and it's great! WAY less stressful for both of us I think!

[pansmom]

Thanks everyone for your very well-written and thought out replies. They really helped and got me thinking. There is a Control Unleashed class offered about 40 min. away from me. I will sign Jedi up this summer. Since I'm off for the summer, I have the time to work on this. I have been successful using "Watch me" and "Look at that" with Cadi, so far, not so successful with Jedi. I'll keep at it. I'm also going to try the calming ovals...it can't hurt. I will also start walking him by himself, without Cadi just in case she's transferring her feelings about dogs to him. This is entirely possible. TTouch also sounds interesting. I stopped the sheep herding because after the initial excitement of seeing what he could do, progress was very slow, and I felt that unless I had sheep that he could work on a regular basis we wouldn't get very far. Perhaps I should just think of it as something he enjoys and not be concerned about how far we get with it.

 

I really don't keep Jedi over threshold most of the time. The opposite is true. He is under threshold most of the time. We mostly walk at times when there aren't alot of people walking, we rarely go to the dog park and only if there are only a couple of dogs there, no more boarding if we need to go away. We have few visitors. He is a calm, happy go lucky dog at home. He begins to "worry" anytime we leave home. I think that perhaps I've built so much routine in his life and not enough changes, that he doesn't know how to handle change. Just a thought.... Kristine, I like what you did with Speedy, desensitizing him in the car at different places and then out of the car.

 

I'll just take it one day at a time with the Jedi of the moment!

 

Georgia

 

I have heard fabulous, fabulous things about Control Unleashed from so many people and would highly recommend it if your dog is ready for it. Unfortunately Pan is so bad off that she's not ready for that yet, but even she is gradually progressing... Dr. Haug told me it would take one or two years to even be able to make a decision about whether she'll ever be ok with kids, so perhaps a year is not really that long when you're talking about training a fearful dog. I do think many times it is not a traumatic experience but in the wiring. How old is Jedi?

 

Also, if Jedi is stressed at obedience or agility - or anywhere - why can't you just take Jedi out of it? And then slowly reintroduce to smaller numbers of dogs at a time or something. Pan does best with dogs she knows, with people she knows... I just try to get her one long playdate a week with my sister's corgi or my brother-in-law's beagle. While she was being boarded she made friends with a golden retriever, but he was a candidate for sainthood apparently, an elder ex therapy dog who sat at the edge of her room and tolerated her fearful barks with his tail wagging until she gave up and did a play bow! Not all dogs can be expected to act like that! Even in obedience classes. She was just OVERWHELMED by being in a room with 12 dogs. For dog reactive dogs, or fearful dogs, sometimes I think they just aren't helpful?

[Jedismom]

Just wanted to update and respond to a couple of questions.

 

Denice, I have read the Dog Listener and though I don't fully agree with some of her theories, I have used some of the techniques and have found them helpful.

 

Pansmom, Jedi is almost 2 yrs. old and as quirky as they come.

 

Jedi passed his CGC test the other night. I used the calming circles in between each activity and I believe they helped a little. I just wonder about these organized classes though, and whether they're right for him. I said I'd sign him up for the Control Unleashed class, but then I picture a class full of control challenged dogs and Jedi. I guess the question I'm pondering about these classes, whether they are CGC, obedience, agility is...why am I doing them? I've been doing them mostly for socialization. There are people there who take the classes more than once with the idea that their dog will do better each time and get used to taking commands around different people, distractions, and dogs. On the other hand, if they're stressing him out, should I continue in the hopes that consistent exposure will help him adjust, or should I just enjoy the dog that I have and not try to make him into something he may not be capable of being.

 

I just came back from a vacation that included Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho. (I'll probably post some pics in the coffee break section) The whole time I kept thinking how much Jedi would enjoy it out there. Driving through those states and seeing ranch upon ranch and even a few bc's...no leashes because they didn't need to be on them. Just a job, and the freedom to be what they were born to be. I think I'm going to help him get to that place.

 

Georgia

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I just wonder about these organized classes though, and whether they're right for him. I said I'd sign him up for the Control Unleashed class, but then I picture a class full of control challenged dogs and Jedi. I guess the question I'm pondering about these classes, whether they are CGC, obedience, agility is...why am I doing them? I've been doing them mostly for socialization. There are people there who take the classes more than once with the idea that their dog will do better each time and get used to taking commands around different people, distractions, and dogs. On the other hand, if they're stressing him out, should I continue in the hopes that consistent exposure will help him adjust, or should I just enjoy the dog that I have and not try to make him into something he may not be capable of being.

 

I'm not really too sure about CU classes because there aren't any in my area, so hopefully someone can tell you more about them. But I don't think they are going to be as bad (or crazy) as you think.

 

We started taking classes when I realized I could actually help my dog. The first class we took was a "Reactive Dog" class. It had 4 dog/student teams, one trainer and an assistant. The dogs (no matter their issue) were divided by cubical dividers and about 10 ft apart from each other. They knew each other were there, but they couldn't see each other, keeping anxiety levels low. Of course, Daisy had a really rough first two classes. New environment, other dogs, new strangers, I'm sure all she could think was WTF! But we got into it and she started liking it. We slowly went up levels of classes increasing the amount of dog/handler teams. The next set was 5 teams, then 8, then 12 (holy crap!), now we are going back into a class with 5 teams, but in a much smaller environment. If I had a video of her first class to compare to her now, it would be like watching a different dog. I have taken classes twice so that I could focus on her the second time around instead of trying to learn new things at the same time. I didn't expect her to get better, I expected my self to be able to focus on her better.

 

The reason I do all of this is because she REALLY loves training. She loves learning and once she gets into it, she zones out and forgets everything else around us (well 75% of the time). She will never be a competition dog and I had to accept that, but I keep trucking along because she does actually like to play games and learn tricks and goof around. Which is what we mostly do because she's a very obedient dog with an excellent recall so most classes are just for the exposure.

 

Basically, if Jedi likes learning and has fun, then keep going. If the organized classes that you are in are too much for him, perhaps re-evaluated the class and try to find one with less people and dogs in a quieter environment, if possible. If he is miserable in classes and doesn't really care, then I would just accept him for who he is and perhaps work on him at home where he feels safe, building confidence and then try the classes again!