agilityrunningdogs Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Hello, My name is Katie Johnson and I have a wonderful 9 month old Border Collie named Maelstrom, better known as Mal. Mal is a classic black and white rough coat with huge pricked bat ears. I have 2 Miniature Schnauzers that compete in agility and he is in training as well. He does come from herding stock, so I have been toying with the idea of putting him on sheep. I work as an employee in a dog boarding and training facility, and the owner (Catherine Laria) does quite a bit of herding with her crew and she offers lessons as well. Both littermates have had their instinct test and they are great. The problem is that agility is my main focus with Mal. When I run with him, he cuts me off from the obstacle and tries to “herd” me. I’m pretty sure he has the instinct to herd, but my question is if I put him on sheep, will this provide an outlet for his herding behavior or will it encourage it? Like I said, herding will be a side job for him, I’m sure he will enjoy it, but he loves agility. I really expect big things from him and I don’t want to push the conduct of cutting me off and blowing past obstacles, however if it helps end the madness, then I’m all for it. Here are some pictures of my Maelstrom Hiking Squishing my Schnauzer Boy Group Picture with the Schnauzers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 I've not seen any problems crop up from herding experiences in my agility dogs. If anything I think it's another great way to truly proof basic cues like "down". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Herding only happens on livestock. What some people call "herding" in your context is misdirected prey drive, bad manners, frustration due to late or incorrect commands, and/or unfinished training. None of these behaviors means a dog will, or won't, herd when actually presented with livestock. I'd get your agility instructor to help you with the focus and control issues, and definately I would encourage you try herding with your dog. It's addictive though....better watch out or your agility lessons money may get redirected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 With a Border Collie as you describe, I would personally elect to work through the issue within the context of Agility training. For the problem of your dog cutting you off, you might want to work more short sequences with targets. I've found this helpful for teaching a dog to understand to go from one obstacle to another instead of cutting back to me. You might also want to work around the clock sends on single pieces of equipment, building up to a send of 5 - 10 feet to teach your dog to work out away from you more deliberately. Another thing you might want to check out is the Mecklenburg handling system. I don't have a ton of experience with it, but it can be extremely helpful for a dog who tends to run by pieces of equipment. I'm working with some of her techniques now with one of my dogs who is has begun to run by jumps because he figured out that when the bars fall they make a sound ( ) and he'd rather run around them than allow them to make noise without his permission. The little I know of the Mecklenburg system is really helping him to start going over the jumps again instead of around them! It would likely work for a dog who tends to cut back toward the handler, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agilityrunningdogs Posted May 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 That's a good point about herding only on livestock - I've never thought of that. He actually has great control and focus, it's something I worked on since Day 1 because I've always had terriers where you really needed the focus. But when we run together, his brain turns to mush, he's still with me, but it's like he gets so excited that he can't think. If I stand in place, I can send him out great distances. We're doing more GD (Greg Derret) than APHS (Linda Mecklenberg) - although we don't follow one method exclusively, but I will do the APHS Developing Jumping Skills program when his growth plates close and we can do some serious jumping. He does do some targetting (which is something Linda prefers you not to do), but I guess the problem is really me moving with him that turns him wild and a couple of people have told me that it's his herding instinct - but it could very well be prey drive. He's only 9 months old so it's not like it's imperative this problem must be fixed now, however I would like to nip it in the bud before it escalates. I've done agility for 7 years with the schnauzers and my girl, Annie, and I have been to Nationals twice, so it's not like this is my first competitive dog I'm training. It's just the first dog I've come across any serious issues with. My instuctor actually has his littersister and she was going to put her on stock in a few weeks and was wondering if Mal wanted to share the lesson. From the responses, this sounds like an agility problem, so I guess little Maelstrom is going to try his luck at herding. And Lenajo - I'll keep a close eye on my wallet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 He actually has great control and focus, it's something I worked on since Day 1 because I've always had terriers where you really needed the focus. But when we run together, his brain turns to mush, he's still with me, but it's like he gets so excited that he can't think. If I stand in place, I can send him out great distances. We're doing more GD (Greg Derret) than APHS (Linda Mecklenberg) - although we don't follow one method exclusively, but I will do the APHS Developing Jumping Skills program when his growth plates close and we can do some serious jumping. He does do some targetting (which is something Linda prefers you not to do), but I guess the problem is really me moving with him that turns him wild and a couple of people have told me that it's his herding instinct - but it could very well be prey drive. He's only 9 months old so it's not like it's imperative this problem must be fixed now, however I would like to nip it in the bud before it escalates. Maybe check out Control Unleashed, then. The Off Switch Games might help, as would, I think the mat work and some relaxation focused work. What you describe, his brain turning to mush and him being unable to think, sounds like overstimulation. The best training and focus in the world can fly out the window when a dog gets overstimulated. While this does not happen with every Border Collie, it is not uncommon for Border Collies to find the movement in Agility stimulating in a way that a typical terrier will not. I'd chalk his cutting you off more up to overstimulation than herding instinct, or even prey drive, although of course the brain is a whole package and there are probably several things going on. I'm sure there are elements of the Derret system that you could isolate out and use as exercises to help your dog learn to handle the stimulation levels - it's just a matter of framing your work with him in that context. The key is to find the level of stimulation where he can perform in his right mind, work him at that level and build the duration of his movement and sequences as his ability to keep his head while moving increases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Welcome. I don't do herding, but I'm sure it has to be way cool! I can say that running a Border collie in agility is also awesome. I previously ran a slower dog who nicely trotted around the course (not a BC)with me. It's now a huge adrenaline rush to run a Border collie! I can only say this on this website without getting beat up, but there is nothing greater than a Border collie!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in2adventure Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 I do agility and herding with both of mine and don't see an issue mixing the two sports. The herding will be minimal this summer since I won't be near sheep It's very addictive though My youngest turned one in March and he sounds very much like your boy. Be patient and work on lots of short drills that involve focus. Grady gets WAY over stimulated when asked to do too much too fast. Right now, if I ask him to do more than 3 or 4 things, his brain gets mushy. I've been following Susan Garret and Greg Derret and love their work. Box work, one jump and backchaining is doing wonders for him. I started his 2x2 weaves yesterday and he's doing amazing after only 2 sessions. Lucia came with natural focus and the will to work for me, but lacked in the speed department until I stared following Susan's training. It's been fun and frustrating training two polar opposite dogs. Grady has a restart if he gets too out of control. I use down and then have him touch my hand. He needs the down to stop his anticts and the touch to refocus on me. I use this A LOT and he's slowly learning that if he doesn't control himself, the game ends. I see the "chase game" in a ton of different breeds. It's not a herding instinct. IMO it's him being over stimulated. I don't see anyone saying that the lab or lhaso apso doing the exact same thing has herdng instict. Good luck and keep us posted on how he's doing. Remember, he is just a baby and it may take awhile for brain to kick into a serious thinking mode. Highly recommend: Crate Games Success with One Jump Control Unleashed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizabeth77 Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 How did my dog cross the Atlantic for the photo and come home dry??? She is so like your Mal , expression and all. Having said that of course he is a beauty! Your other two dogs are lovey, what a trio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRipley Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 I'm struggling with the "instinct mode vs. thinking mode" thing too. Rip's most difficult issue in regards to agility training is his reactiveness to motion (other dogs). I have only had him for 3 months and with Control Unleashed techniques I am confident we can overcome it. I've started him on sheep recently too, and I've been told by several of my more-knowledgeable friends that the cross-over shouldn't affect him any. And I don't see how it would, either. If anything, I think it may help. The dog needs to think and listen while working sheep. So if you want to try it, go for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Rip's most difficult issue in regards to agility training is his reactiveness to motion (other dogs). I have only had him for 3 months and with Control Unleashed techniques I am confident we can overcome it. I used the LAT game with my Border Collie, Dean, and he was able to completely overcome his reactiveness to motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Borders Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 How did my dog cross the Atlantic for the photo and come home dry???She is so like your Mal , expression and all. Having said that of course he is a beauty! Your other two dogs are lovey, what a trio. Oh the bat ears! They must be related to Merry too (see photos, if they worked, blast). Just joined as well, with a question kinda like yours in the training section (although I don't have your experience with agility, we're just starting and Mer's been held back by all of her health problems). You're lucky to have access to a good HA trainer, my boss doesn't do HA, so probably no lessons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Katie, If you have any interest in working stock with Mal, then I say why not? Stockdog training should help Mal learn self control as well as how to think. Even if you have no plans of trialing competitively, stockwork can provide a good foundation in partnership that's difficult to replicate elsewhere. (And before a bunch of folks jump up and say "Not true!" I know you can develop partnership in many contexts, but the fact is that this breed was developed to work in partnership with a shepherd managing stock. I can't think of a faster and more appropriate way to develop that partnership than with stockwork, if the human has the interest and means to do so.) Also remember that at 9 months old (and being a male), Mal is still very much a baby. He can't help that his brain turns to mush.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.