More Detailed Update on Pan

[JohnLloydJones]

My trainer said I should be alpha rolling Odin sort of randomly, to really impress on him who is the leader.

 

I would run, not walk, from a trainer who said that to me. The alpha roll, if indeed you need to use at all (and I don't), is a once only ritual to establish leadership. If you need to use it "sort of randomly" then you do not have your dog's respect; you are not the established leader.

[Ooky]

I would run, not walk, from a trainer who said that to me. The alpha roll, if indeed you need to use at all (and I don't), is a once only ritual to establish leadership. If you need to use it "sort of randomly" then you do not have your dog's respect; you are not the established leader.

 

I think her point is that I'd need to do it randomly *until* he realizes I am the total leader. Well, my point was sort of that I'm not going to use it at all because it's not right for me, and can tell her that too. She might laugh, but she knows I'll take some of her advice and leave some of it. She does sort of have a confrontational style of training (which is what initially brought this to mind as I was reading Pan's report), in that beyond the alpha roll and related stuff, she mentioned she likes a dog like Odin to make mistakes as it gives her a training opportunity to correct said mistakes. This is fundamentally different than how I view things, but at the same time I can really see how she can benefit me, because it's like I have too much water and she has a lot of wood in the metaphorical dog training sense, or something. She's too far to be my regular long-term trainer anyway, and specializes in kelpies. But I do agree I need to get better at corrections as a training tool, and I would like Odin to realize when I am serious about him doing a job.

[bcnewe2]

Of course I don't know Dr. Haug and can't speak for her, but my guess, based on the report posted

 

Quickly, I did not say Dr. Haug was dissing anything or any one, I quoted a post from Northof49, feeling that he was dissing anything other than the type training Dr. Haug had set up for Pan, which personally I think fits Pan just right. The proof will be in the pudding.

One thing I will mention is that it seems weird to me with respect to the muzzle and the gentle leader, but I really think those tools are more for Mary to feel safe, which will make all the difference in the world for her to be successful with Pan's training. JMHO

 

Next I wonder about Ooky's trainer (stockdog trainer???) that feels alpha rolls are a needed thing. Respect is needed for stock training but I'm not sure I get why alpha rolls are. Could it be a way for her to help ooky's confidence with her own dog? I don't think it's a standard thing that most would use, but I'd have to see ooky and her dog in action to say what I truly think could be going on.

 

With Raven (my fear reactive dog no less) way back during our fist year together I took her to a respected stockdog trainer (or was he?)...but at the time I sure thought so. I had her out in the field. She did something wrong and the man told me to go effect my dog. I took that to mean correct her. So off I ran to get her attention. I got to her, yelled and bent over her. She cowered a bit and off she took, (fear avoidance at the time) The man said "no, not enough" so I ran after her again. She sorta stumbled around and looked up at the only person she had learned to trust. I leaned over her again and probably yelled a bit harder. she again, squirmed away to avoid me. The man said "Still not enough." Well, it was enough for Raven she took off and I couldn't catch her again. She ended up at the car luckily and got in when I got there. The next day I had entered her in one of my first dog trials. Novice, so I took her to the post knowing that as soon as I unhooked her leash she was going to take off again cause she was fresh from being terrified of me the day before. Yep, that's exactly what she did. People commented on her beautiful wide outrun. Sheep work called her back and we got through the course. We never had to have close contact throughout the run. But the whole time I knew she was not going to let me even reach down and pet her. Why...cause I had broken our trust bond the day before trying to "effect my dog". I had no idea what the man wanted, I tried to "effect" my dog, but in the end I broke our bond and it took years to rebuild into a relationship where she totally trusted me. She'd work for me, but never let me get close. I could love on her at home, but never reach or lean over her without her freaking out.

 

I guess my point is....the man meant nothing wrong with what he told me to do. I didn't understand so there was no way I could get the response he was looking for. It might have been a bit like Ooky trainer telling her to alpha roll her dog, in other words effect your dog. Without respect you can't really get the desired response. Raven did respect me, even though I was such a poor stock dog trainer, and if truth be told, really shouldn't have been respected by the dog, but in reality she didn't trust me which is a huge difference. The clinician didn't understand such a fearful dog. That was probably when trust my little voice really started hitting home.

 

I am not saying Ooky's trainer is wrong, without seeing the situation, but I do think there might be other or better ways to gain respect from a dog. The hardest part of being a noob is understand how to get there. It's different for each one of us. I can't earn a dog's respect in the same manner as anyone else. It's my way for me or forget it, I'm just going through the motions and the dog knows. Although I'm always interested in learning new ideas to ponder and either put in my toolbox or the trashcan.

 

JMHO and saving judgment for ooky and her trainers ideas to come back and say exactly what she has learned about getting respect from her dog as she continues on her training adventure. Again, not dissing ooky or her trainer, I might not understand what's going on, but that's only because I'm not sure ooky understands just yet....

 

How many of you guys believe respect is gained or enforced by not letting your dog go out the door first, or not letting it eat before you do? Or the many other ways I've heard pack order and respect come from those type things. Just wondering. I don't do any of that, and I'd say about 99% my dogs respect me while the are running out the door ahead of me. What works for some, doesn't work for others, Both dogs and people that is.

[Eileen Stein]

Ooky, have you read Derek Scrimgeour's Talking Sheepdogs, or seen any of his videos (A Hill Shepherd Trains His Border Collies, The Shepherd's Pup)? I think that's a training approach you might find congenial.

 

I'm glad you are able to say "I'm not going to use it at all because it's not right for me." Good for you, and good for your dog.

[pansmom]

One thing I will mention is that it seems weird to me with respect to the muzzle and the gentle leader, but I really think those tools are more for Mary to feel safe, which will make all the difference in the world for her to be successful with Pan's training. JMHO

 

I think it's because with a dog like Pan, who has bitten us, and who actually aggressed the doctor during the appointment, Dr. Haug cannot in good conscience recommend that I put this dog on drugs that may decrease bite inhibition without having good management in place. That is one of the dangers of putting fear aggressive dogs on anti-anxiety meds or SSRIs, yes they can REALLY help along behavior mod, but they can also decrease bite inhibition by decreasing anxiety and then when they bite they REALLY bite. And Pan has bitten before. So Dr. Haug is saying, we can try this, but you need to make sure you're safe first. And honestly I'd rather have her on a muzzle than a tether because I know she will tolerate the muzzle better (she's already somewhat desensitized to a short-wear one). And with a muzzle she will be able to roam freely about the house and lie at my feet as usually. But some type of confinement is absolutely necessary to her behavior mod program because of how much she can redirect aggression from fear aggression/sound reactivity onto us. It's a dangerous combination to have fear aggression,sound reactivity, and redirected aggression, all in one dog. It means she can get freaked out by a sound, get aggressive, and redirect it on the nearest living creature which may be a human. Yes we can tell her hush it's nothing and go to time out but that may negatively reinforce the behavior. Using constant pre-existing confinement of some sort (in the case of the tether or muzzle) allows us to COMPLETELY and SAFELY ignore Pan's aggression (in case of muzzle) or leave the room and withdraw attention (in the case of the tether), and using the Gentle Leader allows us to neutrally abort it. So basically these are the only safe ways to neutrally correct the behavior and that is what is needed in Pan's (special) case. Make more sense now?

 

Just as an example, after three days of ignoring her insane barking during the neighborhood bark hour except for leaving the room neutrally when her barking got frenzied, the first day was the constant Awwrrrrruuurrrrrrrrrrrr RUFFF Awrruuuuuuuuuuuuuffff growl/talk/bark combo, the second day was less intense barking, and today it was only a few mostly quiet wuffs, and hardly any growls at all. And the best thing was today, on the third day, she wasn't barking AT ME to communicate her frustration - or redirect it - to/at ME. She was wuffing --generally-- sort of at the room, instead of staring me down redirecting on me. In other words, she was not as far over threshold. Because I was not interacting with her, she was not going off the deep end. I also left the room if she bit her leash or pawed at the floor, and that stopped both of those behaviors also. The lucky thing is she REALLY wants to please me and be around me (ok maybe it's not luck, I have worked hard to make her love me and earn her trust, we do lots of fun things together every day and I really do love her a great deal!) so withdrawing my attention is punishment enough. And it doesn't cause her any fear, so she can keep her head on her shoulders a bit more.

[SoloRiver]

Hi Mary,

 

Just wanted to say I am glad to hear that you had a good experience with Dr. Haug and a plan for how to proceed that works for all of you. It makes me very happy to read this.

 

I have a greyhound muzzle for Solo, although he only wears it at the vet or sometimes when he is working sheep (he grips). The one I ordered is from www.halemar.com, which may or may not still be in business. I had to get one that had a buckle instead of a plastic snap, because Solo knows how to remove the kind with the plastic snap. He will actually stick his forepaw back there and undo the snap somehow by squeezing it. It allows him to breathe easily and is very comfortable, as far as muzzles go.

 

For Ooky -- I totally agree on the Scrimgeour recommendation. I've rented a number of different sheepdog training videos and found Scrimgeour's methods by far the most compatible with my own. And with results like he gets I really don't see how anyone else can fault them either.

 

-- Melanie (writing from Azraq, Jordan)

[Root Beer]

Quickly, I did not say Dr. Haug was dissing anything or any one, I quoted a post from Northof49, feeling that he was dissing anything other than the type training Dr. Haug had set up for Pan, which personally I think fits Pan just right. The proof will be in the pudding.

 

Gotcha. My bad - I misunderstood.

 

I agree - I think Dr. Haug's plan sounds perfect for Pan and I am looking forward very much to hearing how things go along the way.

 

How many of you guys believe respect is gained or enforced by not letting your dog go out the door first, or not letting it eat before you do? Or the many other ways I've heard pack order and respect come from those type things.

 

Put me in the "no" category for this.

 

My dogs eat before I do first thing in the morning (I like to get feeding them out of the way first thing), they go in and out of doors in a natural fashion (they all know a stay at the door, but I only ask for it when there is a practical reason), they jump up on me to give hugs and greetings, they sit on the furniture, they let me know if they want to play games (I can say no, but I usually want to play when they do), they win at tug, I pet them when they are afraid (if they actually want me to) . . . I can't think of any others, but I know I break almost all of these kinds of "rules" - mainly because they don't suit me at all.

 

And yes, there is a lot of respect going both way in this household. I gain that with a new dog primarily through establishing structure and the early stages of foundation training.

 

Interestingly, with a new dog, I do quite a bit of what Dr. Haug has Pansmom doing with Pan (without the muzzles and gentle leader, but those are specific for Pan because of the biting, etc.). What the dog wants (attention, access to things, freedom, etc.) is neutrally removed to communicate that the dog has made incorrect choices and then is given to the dog when he is correct. Of course, there is other training that goes along with the process - the dog is not just left to figure everything out on his or her own, although with some things that is the case. This takes some work in the beginning, but I love the long term results, particularly in the respect department.

[juliepoudrier]

How many of you guys believe respect is gained or enforced by not letting your dog go out the door first, or not letting it eat before you do? Or the many other ways I've heard pack order and respect come from those type things. Just wondering. I don't do any of that, and I'd say about 99% my dogs respect me while the are running out the door ahead of me. What works for some, doesn't work for others, Both dogs and people that is.

I don't believe or practice any of that stuff (heck, I was raised to take care of all the animals before taking care of myself, so around here, everything is fed, watered, etc., before I sit down to eat), and yet I have dogs trialing at the top levels and who clearly respect me and work well for me. Like you say, I think it's a matter of what works for the dog and the person (but then again I would never make physical punishment a routine part of my training repertoire). I don't quite see the purpose of random alpha rolls that Ooky's trainer suggested, and if I were Ooky, I would take Eileen's suggestion and check out Derek Scrimgeour's books and DVDs. In my view, it's perfectly possible to gain respect while working livestock (if you didn't have it before) by managing your dog's interactions with the stock, if your dog understands corrections at least (and for me, this means verbal corrections, not physical corrections). I am of the school of training that I won't panic or get physical with any newbie working dog unless it's literally trying to take sheep down for the kill (in which case I would certainly get physical to pull the dog off the sheep, but still wouldn't resort to physically punishing it). Anything else can pretty much be managed with a drag line (to stop/catch the dog) and physical presence (pressure) and voice corrections. I can see how it would be difficult for an inexperienced handler to make an impression (gain respect?) with a newbie dog simply because the handler doesn't have the timing or training skills to make an effective correction (much as you described with poor Raven). Some of that can certainly be worked with off stock, but I would look at it in terms of obedience training and teaching the dog to take a correction, not some sort of "I am alpha" training. To me working stock isn't about alpha/beta, it's about a working partnership with the dog, and that includes mutual trust and willingness to "take one for the team" (to use a cliche).

 

That's not to say I've never walked a dog down and berated it (verbally), but that's not standard operating procedure and it would be more of a last resort thing for a dog who understands what I want and is clearly giving me the finger. In fact, I had something of a recent epiphany regarding some of the problems I'm having with Phoebe when I realized that I had made our training sessions confrontational (which is not my training style, but Phoebe has a way of pushing those buttons) and so I've gone back to my preferred style of training, which is calm and quiet no matter what. In one session, things improved dramatically. I'm not saying they'll always be that good, but by recognizing that I had stepped away from my preferred way of training with her and thus really created more problems, I am back on track and will probably make better progress much more quickly now. Dog training--it's a process of continuous learning for the human too!

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

*slight hijack*

 

Hi Melanie! You lucky girl!

 

I had to get one that had a buckle instead of a plastic snap, because Solo knows how to remove the kind with the plastic snap. He will actually stick his forepaw back there and undo the snap somehow by squeezing it.

 

Hilarious. That's my boy. Gus can do the same sort of things. The other day I discovered him with his head in the food bin, which is one of those stackable deals with the twist top. The only way he could have gotten that off was to patiently tap at the handgrip in the middle with his paw, until it started moving.

 

Back on topic - there's two questions afoot here. First, how to modify behavior under normal circumstances. And second, how to modify behavior in a dog that spends a lot of time over the threshold.

 

Every dog has a threshold - every thinking animal does, in fact - the point where, roughly speaking, conscious will and thought starts to give way to blind instinctive reaction.

 

For most dogs, we only see the threshold at fleeting times, and rarely, and the dog itself has the ability to "reset to zero" once the stimulus is gone - or once the stimulus is processed. For such dogs, you can do something like force it to deal with its fear of shiny floors, by dragging it over the floor until it realizes it's not gonna die. Likewise, you can pattern train a normal dog on stock (ie, put it in situations where it has no choice but to do what you want) to help it overcome such normal training roadblocks as being nervous about tight spaces, or walking into pressure, or "releasing" pressure. I hope that makes sense in stockdog terms - it's how I think of it.

 

There are some individuals that through some quirk of genetics, plus possibly additional environmental or training issues, have much lower thresholds. And even worse, it's fairly common for this to be combined with a deficiency in the ability to "reset to zero" - to get back to a point where the dog stops simply reacting and starts thinking about the stimulus. That means that where most dogs can see something once and "get over it," these dogs lack that natural ability and will continue to react and react and often even escalate the reaction.

 

With such dogs, the best approach I've found is indeed to teach the dog the tools that most dogs have naturally. As detailed above, the main process is being alert to the signs of arousal, and backing up a step until the dog finds a way to "reset to zero" on its own.

 

After time, that threshold will rise, and the dog will develop the ability to think through the initial reaction and lower its own arousal levels. It's a really gradual process - it takes a year, usually, or more, of intensive working with dogs here, even for me, to get them close to "normal."

 

But the lovely thing is that because it's all about teaching the dog to handle its own fears, itself, whole new worlds open up to a dog that might have come here with very few options. They not only learn to fit into a knowledgeable household, but they also have learned to handle the pressures of working and often turn out to excel - the flip side of that reactiveness is a "point and shoot" working style that many people like, whether for sport or stock work.

 

Interestingly, for many years I thought of what I did with the aggressive dogs as being totally separate from stockdog training. This wasn't because my trainers had totally different training methods than the ones that I used. It was because I didn't recognize where the principles applied in stockdog training.

 

The stockdog trainers I tend to gravitate towards (previously unconsciously), gradually extend a dog until they see signs that the dog isn't ready for what they are asking. Then they make it simpler, if possible, isolating the new thing in a way that allows the dog to work through it with much less pressure. Intense training like stockdog training also toys with the threshold - what a trainer does with that is something I look for now, as I want to learn to train for stock work in a way that's analogous to how I work with aggressive dogs.

 

I realized this at a clinic I attended one year, when I listened in on a discussion with a psychiatric researcher whose work was in PTSD, and the clinician. She pointed out that his methods were similar to "talking therapy," where the clinician will work a patient past the trigger, ensuring that the patient remains in a neutral emotional state, while calling up trigger images. Enough of this will create new pathways (researchers believe) in the higher part of the brain so that the stimulus starts automatically triggering thought rather than reaction (the fight or flight response in PTSD patients). It takes about six weeks to make this change permanent, apparently - thus, you can see why a similar process takes so long in dogs.

 

Thus, what's being done here with Pan, is not really hugely divergent from time honored methods of helping stockdogs to deal with pressure, I don't think. It's just that with companion dogs it's not commonly necessary to deal with what Pan's mom is having to work with. And with companion dogs, the stimuli are frustratingly random, and the "reward" for working your dog through one incident, is getting to repeat the whole process under slightly more pressure. With stockdog training, being in the right place and feeling "right" with the stock can create huge "aha" moments for the dog and leaps forward in training.

 

Good luck to Pan's mom. Sounds like you are in good hands!

[Alaska]

Becca, I think that was one of the best posts I've read in the five or so years I've been hanging around here.

[Ooky]

Thanks for the Derek Scrimgeour recs, Eileen, Melanie, and Julie! I am definitely ordering the book and put the DVD of a Shepherd's Pup on my wish list.

 

Kristen, did not think you were dissing me or the trainer at all - I happen to disagree with her on this too, but can easily see that while I might disagree with some of her methods she is successful in having good relationships with her dogs and can train them to a high level basically using a very different philosophy than mine. She never did anything to Odin it seemed like he couldn't handle (although he truly hated the roll he did give the desired submission in the end), and it is very instructive to see his responses to a completely different training style. Plus having hands-on general correction training is a must for me. But I have other ways of getting him to perform well - I personally have no doubt he truly does want to work for and with me on stuff outside the pen - I think it will be a long and rewarding journey to figure out how exactly how to improve on that over time and also have it relate to our working together with stock. I should probably post questions about it to you very knowledgable folks in a different thread that is not about Pan!

[topnotchdog]

All the best to you, Mary, my hat is off to you; I know it is a roller-coaster ride at times. And as a newbie to the working stock aspect of living with a border collie, thanks to Elaine for the Talking Sheepdogs book suggestion, and subsequent posts by Julie and others on this thread. Very encouraging to see there is a range of successful approaches for training on stock.

 

By way of introduction...our (almost) 11 year old (hopefully pictured to the right if I figured the avatar thing out) is loads of fun and has blossomed into a wonderful companion and training buddy, but he is not into livestock. That's ok, he had other things to teach me. We also have a feist who recently retired from agility. We hope to be adding another border collie this year.

 

I have already learned so much from this forum and it's nice to be here.

 

Barbara

[ErinKate]

I am so insanely mixed on this post!!!!

However, since you are dedicated to working so hard, and striving to do what you think is best for the dog and your family, I am not going to say anything more than good luck! (positive vibes, positive vibes) I think everyone here knows you have wonderful intentions, and we all hope in the long run you get each other figured out!

Please just be careful. I really wish you lived closer to a BC person!!!

[pansmom]

Update:

 

With my husband out of town, my sister visited for a day and a half with her dog, Jo, a corgi, whom Pan loves. Pan almost immediately started mirroring Jo's behavior (he is a very confident sweet boy, a couple months older than her, and they've been friends since they were pups). We went on several walks together, the four of us, and they played a ton. Jo ignored the neighborhood bark hour completely. Pan started looking at him instead of barking. And last night, even though he was gone, Pan ignored neighborhood bark hour except for a few non-aggressive yips or wuffs. Also she has gotten way more cuddly and unafraid of me petting her, wanting to put her head on my lap and so forth. (Note: I do not pet her during neighborhood bark hour! LOL. But she saw my sister and I petting Jo and wanted to try to cuddle herself. I pet her for a few seconds in training situations only and then dismiss her, I don't want to overstimulate her at this point.)

 

 

Other news not related to Jo:

 

Because my husband was out of town I was able to sleep in the living room last night with her on a long tether, just out of reach (she slept at the foot of the futon). Today and yesterday she has been constantly licking my legs and feet. She watches me closely on walks and walks politely. She calmly sits still to have her leash put on (anticipating the training treat I give her afterward). With the PACE training, she also sits politely at doorways now and no longer runs out the fence, looking at me waiting for the "ok" before she goes. We've been doing 200 sits and 200 downs a day onto which we will soon build the next step of the behavior modification program. She is still barking some, but it seems like lower intensity barking. None of the completely insane off-the-handle temper tantrum barking episodes in a couple days. Also she has stopped directing them AT me, too, when she does bark it is like GENERAL barking if that makes sense. Even the vet - to whom we brought her to get her kennel cough vaccination - noticed when we ignored her barking that she quieted down almost immediately. And he was impressed with how calmly she let me put the short-term-wear muzzle on her to take the shot. She was very calm during and even wagged her tail when he pet her afterward as we both told her good girl, right before we treated her and took the muzzle off.

 

All in all, I think we are making progress. I hope everything is going to be okay at the kennel. The lady who runs it has veterinary tech experience herself and Dr. Haug recommended it, also they won't have to handle her because the room is large with a doggie door and patio. But I really want Pan to feel safe and like she is being taken care of, so I am going early to acclimatize her to the room and also help her get to know the lady who will be feeding her. Happily this situation will not require the lady to touch Pan in any way, no leashing or anything like that, so hopefully it will go uneventfully. I'm going to be superpositive when I introduce her to the space and the lady. Pan isn't usually afraid of strangers, especially women, when they're not intruding upon her yard, and this woman knows about Pan's issues (Dr. Haug talked to her) and knows that she needs to be very gentle and sweet talky and so on. Board mojo for that, PLEASE!!!! I am going to be so nervous, the whole trip, I know it.

[pansmom]

OK today is going so well I just have to post AGAIN!

 

Excerpts from today's entry in my journal:

 

Took Pan to PetSmart today (something I have been doing since she was a pup). Other than a delayed very mild redirect from a passing golden retriever at her friend Warhol (another corgi she is friends with from the dog park and training class, nothing terrible, just a lil' growl), Pan did GREAT and stayed very low on the threshold spectrum the whole time. I was praising her for every good choice she was making (ignore the Great Dane at the end of the aisle--no really, and ok, it was a longish aisle, but still, she did that!--automatically going into a down as we waited in line...)

 

On our walk, she seemed more exploratory than usual (sniffing more often and more curious and less likely to spook at bark sounds, etc.). A couple of barky terriers were outside (behind a fence) racing at her at one point and when they ran at her she got piloerection and growled a tiny beginning growl so I had her sit and look at me and when she did I'd praise her and click, and her face would just light up (ears immediately going up, eyes lighting up, after a couple times as soon as she heard my voice).

 

There is nothing more rewarding than that face. I cannot believe she loves and trusts me that much.

[flyer]

Good on ya. I get weepy reading your updates. I so hope you two make it.

 

Flyer

[mbc1963]

A couple of barky terriers were outside (behind a fence) racing at her at one point and when they ran at her she got piloerection and growled a tiny beginning growl so I had her sit and look at me and when she did I'd praise her and click, and her face would just light up (ears immediately going up, eyes lighting up, after a couple times as soon as she heard my voice).

 

That's great!

 

There's a fence-charging dog near me, and I appreciate him, because he allows me to work on Buddy's reactivity by being both aggressive and in-your-face in a completely safe way. I love to have Buddy do lie-downs and sits while the dog is snarling and barking a couple feet away. Sometimes I wonder how the owners feel about my using their curb and their dog as a training vehicle. ::Shrug::

 

Mary

[Caroline Reichard]

Hi Mary,

 

I'm really glad that things worked out at the Petsmart, but I am also confused. I thought that your plan was to keep her below her reaction threshhold as much as humanly possible, ie. that your plan was to not let her be in situations that might elicit a bad reaction from her. I thought that the point was to avoid these behaviors rather than to have to correct them (even with corrections and low key as soothing talk) and to try stay well below her threshold rather than continually test how she behaves at her threshold?

 

I have always found places like Petsmart to be tough places to take a dog. It can really be mayhem, and you cannot control what the other people and their dogs do. Even normally reacting dogs can have a hard time with strange dogs lunging at barking at them, which they always do there. I'm surprised that you would choose this as a destination spot for a dog with such severe reactivity problems; it seems like asking for a disaster.

 

I dunno; maybe I should get off the farm more often. I had a dog once that definitely had the potential for reactivity problems. I kept him at home a lot, and introduced new stuff in a very measured way, so that I could control what happened to him. I didn't take him to places like that until he had no problems at all with everyday stuff.

[Caroline Reichard]

Sorry. Can't seem to stop myself this morning.

 

I also wanted to say that your #1 responsibility with this dog is to make sure that no one is bitten by her. You know that, of course. But I can't seem to stop myself from pointing out that the potential for people getting bit by Pan is much higher in a Petsmart that at home. Imagine someone's toddler running unsupervised into your dog and throwing its arms around her. If Pan bites that child's face, it will be considered your fault. These things happen very, very fast: they are like getting your pocket picked, or goals in professional soccer. And at that point, you will (1) have lots of guilt, (2) be sued, and (3) be ordered to put Pan to sleep. I think taking a biting dog out into public is a big risk for you.

[SoloRiver]

Solo lived in the middle of two major cities and became blase about passing people on the street, but I am still not crazy about taking him into Petsmart most of the time because it's full of blind corners, tight spaces, and clueless people with poorly controlled dogs. On the other hand, at certain hours of day it can be a fine place to work with a dog, and I am not afraid to tell people before they get close that my dog does not like to be petted by strangers. It is true though that a predictable environment is best, because it maximizes the chances of having a productive learning session.

[Jack & Co.]

Solo lived in the middle of two major cities and became blase about passing people on the street, but I am still not crazy about taking him into Petsmart most of the time because it's full of blind corners, tight spaces, and clueless people with poorly controlled dogs.

That's our typical Petsmart experience. Dog on retractable leash stretched around the corner while the owner stands in the next aisle over studying the dog shampoo, oblivious to the fact that their dog is in my dog's face.

[pansmom]

That's our typical Petsmart experience. Dog on retractable leash stretched around the corner while the owner stands in the next aisle over studying the dog shampoo, oblivious to the fact that their dog is in my dog's face.

 

Well, she is VERY used to the environment and has been going there all her life, so she really doesn't usually go over threshold there (outside of one bad experience in the training enclosure) and usually when I take her (on a very short leash, always) there are few other dogs. I don't think of it as being that different from a walk. I am always extremely alert and warn people off.

 

That being said, Dr. Haug read my training journal and said it'd probably be best to give her a break from PetSmart for a while, even though it's a normal routine for us, for the reasons you all outline. And of course I am going to take her advice.

 

Also she reassured me that she thought things would work out at the boarding facility and to give her number to the owner for emergencies. She is wonderful.

[pansmom]

OK, this is just to add so people don't get worried - we leave tomorrow and Pan is doing well. We finished step one of her behavior modification program, which involved 200 sit/down reps per day for a week and also Dr. Haug's PACE protocol. And we started Karen Overall's protocol for relaxation yesterday on a mat that will habituate relaxation. So anyway I'll be gone until June and you won't get an update until then. Mojo / prayers / good vibes / whatever, please, for Pan while she's boarding, I'm hoping everything goes well! Talk to y'all in June.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Good luck. Hope everything works out while you're gone! Try to relax a bit too!

[pansmom]

Good luck. Hope everything works out while you're gone! Try to relax a bit too!

 

Thank you! I will try!