New Issue

[DTrain]

A new issue has come up with my youngest dog Dave that I am having considerable difficulty with. Dave will be two in a couple of weeks and I have some concerns for his training and future. Some of you may recall posts I made about Dave being fear aggressive. I have been working with him for some time and he was making great progress. I took your advise and things were going along great until a couple of weeks ago. I returned home from running errands with all my dogs and when I let Dave out of the truck to go in the house he ran off and would not take his recall. I spent 30 minutes getting him back. A couple of days after this he began barking at and jumping at people. A couple of times he even nipped. It was like Dave had gone back in time but this time it is even worse and it seems to be getting worse every day. It does not appear to be full out aggression. It is odd because Dave can be completely friendly one moment and barking and jumping the next. I cannot identify anything in particular that seems to have set him back. I am more than willing to take other tactics with Dave but I am not certain where to go with this, this time. I look forward to your help. Thanks.

[Shetlander]

Sorry to hear about this. If your regular vet can't find anything off with him, I would suggest you go the route of Pan's Mom (see related threads) and take Dave to a behavioral vet.

[sweet_ceana]

When Dave is jumping and nipping what are the people that he is jumping and nipping at doing? When we first got Poke he would do this whenever a person was loud, moved their arms a lot, or used an upset or excited tone of voice. We had to work to desenatize him to these weird people actions. I almost forgot that he would also jump and nip if you made funny noises. I have had to make all kinds of crazy noises around him to teach him that it is alright. Poke would jump and nip as a correction for people. (Poke didn't quite get the memo that this is not his job in life) I made a raspberry noise this weekend and he didn't like that so I spent a day walking around the house making the noise and throwing the ball or frisbee whenever he ignored my silly human nonsence.

 

Poke is very in tune to how people are feeling and he doesn't like it when you have emotional extreams. Were you (or someone else in the room) stressed or upset before any of these behaviors? I was watching a scary movie once and Poke came sprinting out of the bedroom with a ton concern after the scene had just made me jump and scared the pants off me. I hadn't made a noise but he knew something was up!

 

He no longer jumps and nips, but sometimes he will have what I would consider temper tantrums where he will lick and pounce on tile. (Do I have an odd dog or what?!) These are now going away with time and the removal of all things fun when he throws a fit.

[juliepoudrier]

I second Liz' suggestion. I too think it might be time for a veterinary behaviorist.

 

J.

[DTrain]

I am going to speak with my vet about Dave. It strikes me rather odd that this would show up again after so much work. Ceana brings up something interesting. Dave is an odd dog, he seems to be much more in tune with things around him or at least he seems to pay more attention than I have seen in other dogs. He does respond to emotion and he is extremely alert. Most of the people around him, the same folks he barks and jumps at are nervous when Dave is around. In fact where I live you could almost say people are dog phobic. I almost think Dave has taken the job of being the pack protector or alarm specialist, does that sound a little strange. He is always on alert and never seems to relax. I almost think this activity is a bluff. He will be very friendly with these same people but if someone approaches his first response no matter how many times he has seen this person, so it seems is to back them off. After he has done his act of jumping and barking he will allow people to get close and pet him and I have encouraged people to do this. If people are very active and load around him he wants in on the action but what he does appears to me to be more rough play than aggression. Dave comes to me about a dozen times every day in a submissive mode to be petted. I have tried some of the new every popular aversion training with Dave and I think that has been a mistake. I have tried very hard to give him a negative reaction to his behavior that I think I may in some ways have made it worse, I hate aversion training anyway and Dave may in fact sense that I do not like doing it and therefore I do not really mean business. I am also using clicker training which I will continue. Dave seems to be insecure. I am trying a new tactic with him to bring him closer to me and give him more confidence in me. I need him to come around, he has a highly public job.

[juliepoudrier]

Have you read the most recent thread by Pan's mom--the one about Dr. Haug's recommendations for Pan? It might give you some ideas. I don't think talking to your regular vet will help much. You need a veterinary behaviorist. If you have read Pan's Mom's thread (the update thread) then you'd know that at least that behaviorist considers adversive(confrontational) training to be a huge mistake for fear aggressive dogs. Of course we don't know that Dave is fear aggressive, but it sounds like he's got something similar going on. Pan's Mom was at a breaking point and now has a very positive outlook about her future with Pan, so I'll say it again: try a veterinary behaviorist.

 

ETA: His behavior change isn't odd if you've recently changed methods of dealing with him (i.e., your attempts at aversive training).

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Do you have a predictable daily routine with him or is your interaction sort of haphazard? If you can work with a board certified veterinary behaviorist I encourage you to do so. However, my feeling based on what you said is that he's a sensitive, highly intelligent dog who is a bit at a loss as to what you expect from him. This doesn't mean you get tough with him. He needs, I suspect, structure in his life - being able to develop some expectations about his place in your household and routine.

 

If he comes from good working lines, then this is the age when he'd normally start training. If you don't offer him some strict boundaries and a very predictable structure, he'll start making up rules on his own. I've found this is very common among bright young male Border Collies - and other breeds, too, actually.

 

Have you ever looked at "Nothing In Life Is Free?" This is a simple framework to offer some structure to your general interactions with him. Then, I'd advise you to actually draw up a literal schedule - times aren't necessary, just a sequence of events for the day. Kennel at certain times, leash walking at certain times, hanging out tethered to you at certain times, doing obedience and other training at other times, mealtimes, even potty times.

 

Because he's actually started bothering people randomly, I'd advise you to reset your relationship to zero. Start with a week of "crate training" as if he were a baby puppy - quiet walks as often as possible, but no free time, training or play. Again, sketch out a regular schedule for this phase.

 

Then go to leash walking, being tethered to you, and kenneling when you can't have him attached to you. I'd do a week with still no training at this point, to allow him to process what's going on without the "noise" and pressure of training and play. Then start including simple obedience on leash, including recalls on a longer leash. I'd do another week of this.

 

The idea, at the end of this, is to make sure he starts thinking you are the Coolest Guy Ever. The reason this happens, is that routine is so extremely rewarding for Border Collies, that just being The Guy Who I Walk With After Lunch, will have Dave eating out of your hand. You'll know this is happening, because instead of looking around at everything but you, as you describe, he'll spend most of his time looking at you and wondering what you will do next.

 

From there figure out what your long term schedule will be, which can start including free time. You'll only need to do this two or three months, I'm pretty sure. It will be well worth it, believe me. I've never known a dog like this to be less than outstanding as a working partner (or companion if talent only lies in that direction) - oddly, even though he seems very disobedient, it's his very desire to please that is sending him off in a million silly directions at once.

 

Yes, if you don't address this, it will get very serious, very fast. Many of the dogs I've worked with, with this exact personality and tendency (if I've gauged this right), are the ones that came here on the brink of being euthanized - some very nice working dogs, even. The owners were wishy washy in handling them and basically allowed the dogs to intimidate them - but it doesn't take "being the boss" to tap into the positive potential of these dogs - just "being a leader."

 

Know what you want, and be positive. Not positive as in avoiding corrections, but clear about what you want.

 

Handling him as above won't harm him even if he's got more serious issues, and it will prevent any further potential for harm. If you don't see improvement after the first week and a half (watch for him to spend much more time tuned in to you - not perfectly yet, but more so), then professional help is certainly in order.

 

One more tip - if he ever turns his teeth on you, try to be calm. Stick your hands in your pockets, smile, and say something like, "Oh, you silly dog - you are in BIG trouble." He doesn't understand of course but your calm tone will help diffuse both your tension and his.

 

DO NOT get physical with him - play it safe and get out of reach until his adrenaline goes down. Then get cut a leash down to about 18" and put it on him, and don't take it off. Then you'll have a safe handle if it happens again. I say this because this is often the next step in this particular type of aggression, particularly if you've gotten physical with him previously. If it happens (or if it's happened before - I'm not familiar with where you've been with Dave previously), please don't think he's bad or even "messed up" in some way.

 

I have to emphasize again, if this is what I'm thinking, I'm 75% sure he's not this way because he's "abnormal." If you get completely in tune with him, you'll find he can't do enough to make you happy. Believe it or not, these dogs are the "Timmy fell in the well" dogs - clever, good at understanding and manipulating their environments, and incredible at figuring out what people want and need.

 

They get really in tune with "normal" (hence the need for you to show him what's normal) and once they are confident enough to work outside that, they are good at getting things back where they belong. Melanie's Solo is this way too, and I love being around him and watching them together. It's just that Solo never got the chance to learn what "normal" was supposed to be during that crucial time Dave is going through now, and apparently has some of Pan's sort of issue with being able to assimilate that information properly at this late date.

 

My shorthand for this kind of dog is "control freak" but I mean it in a good way. Frankly they are my favorite type of dog. I've got two here (Gus and Ted), and probably I'm raising another (Sam). That's the reason I kind of jumped on this, in spite of the very good advice that is out there for you to consult a board certified veterinary behaviorist - I really enjoy working with these dogs and have learned to recognize the "signs" in just a few sentences, many times.

 

Okay, enough blah-blah for now. The kids are waiting for me to start math!

[nowwown]

Rebecca, you are amazing in your knowledge, your ability to explain your knowledge so well and your willingness to share your knowledge and expertise. You have always had excellent advice and in my three years of owning a similar dog to Dave, you have been an incredible teacher. Thank you.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Rebecca, you are amazing in your knowledge, your ability to explain your knowledge so well and your willingness to share your knowledge and expertise. You have always had excellent advice and in my three years of owning a similar dog to Dave, you have been an incredible teacher. Thank you.

 

That's very sweet! I'm glad to help. Always remember, of course, that the best advice is that which you can get from an expert who actually sees your dog. But I try to restrict my advice to tips that won't hurt no matter what's going on. What I strive for is information that is helpful, minimally, to defuse tension and increase safety margins when dealing with off-balance dogs.

 

Sometimes all that's needed is to give both owner and dog mutual feelings of empowerment. I feel like the best friendships and partnerships are the ones where you know where you stand with the other, and I've seen that an awful lot of behavior problems seem to stem from uncertainty in this area.

 

This is true, actually, for most dogs. The motives of dogs that are less intensively bred to be people-pleasers, though, are a little harder to figure out.

 

I may put my foot in it here. But, I'm starting to feel strongly that a lot of the "problems" that seem to be increasing geometrically with Border Collies can be blamed on the transition from the predictable routines of farm life, to the helter-skelter of urban life. Border Collies crave routine like a drug. This doesn't mean that urban life is bad for Border Collies. On the contrary, one of the coolest things about the breed is how adaptable it is - but they've got to have that foundation of predictability and a way to relate to their "person," to fall back on. Most dogs are fine with the casual routine most of us follow.

 

But there are some - and like I say, they are good dogs - who need lots of predictability in their early years, or they will start making up their own rules. And you and fifty behaviorists will beat your heads against a wall and never figure out the rules, because you'll never be able to see the world the way your dog does. If such dogs are matched with people who lead fairly regimented lives, they'll grow into confident maturity with never a blip, most of the time. But the life of an average pet owner isn't predictable enough. So as the window closes and the dog looks in vain for what "normal" should be, he or she will start creating the world according to his own fancy.

 

If the moon is full and I smell hot dogs, then Men In Hats Are Bad.

If the pavement is 55 degrees F and the wind is in the west, then I'll only allow people to touch me for 2.8 seconds.

If my stomach is empty, then I'll run in the other direction

If THAT dog smells like ANOTHER dog, that is small, then it will be okay. If I smell another dog on him that is BIG, then I'll attack.

 

Seriously, I think this is how Dog Aggression/Fear Rules go. This is why I tend to focus more on giving the dog "Get Over It" tools rather than trying to figure out all the things that arouse him or her, in order to counter condition.

 

Eh, I got all preachy. Sorry!

[JohnLloydJones]

Border Collies crave routine like a drug. This doesn't mean that urban life is bad for Border Collies. On the contrary, one of the coolest things about the breed is how adaptable it is - but they've got to have that foundation of predictability and a way to relate to their "person," to fall back on.

 

That certainly matches my experience. Change -- in small quantities -- is fine, but there needs to be a bedrock of routine. When life is predictable, your dog is happy. When something new happens, it's exciting, but too much excitement leads to a confused dog.

[DTrain]

Thanks Rebecca, thanks for taking the time to have such great interest in what is going on with Dave and I. Some of what you are saying has crossed my mind but I just not have been able to put it all together. I have not been exposed to this sort of dog before. I have not been physical with Dave other than some neck scruffs which I have decided against now. Dave has not been aggressive with me, in fact he is rather timid but I think part of that could be he is uncertain of my expectations. I am in my office at the moment and Dave is sleeping under my desk. If I get up for any reason Dave will be right with me and on full alert. What you are saying has turned on the light for me at least as a starting point. Something else about Dave and I had not made the connection until you brought it up. He comes from a long line of outstanding herding dogs ( very outstanding ). I have Dave's father and he is amazing. I have started Dave's stock training but I am taking it very slowly with him. I like the idea of going back to some basics. When Dave is on stock he is dead serious and he listens. I may compete with him at some point if he is good enough but he will not be a farm working dog. I also want to get him into agility if I can bring him around. You have me thinking now that I have underestimated him. The reason I say this is Dave tends to be at least to me somewhat exagerated. He does everything almost to the extreme. He is faster and more aware than my other dogs. He seems to be able to reason better than my other dogs. Everything I see in him is my other dogs but on some sort of higher level. I am going to spend the weekend with Dave and pay very close attention to everything he does and hopefully I will be observant enough to see the light more clearly. I will take your advise and start there. Thanks for your help. Please do not hesitate to jump in, I can assure you that you are helping an exceptional dog.

[Jedismom]

I feel like the best friendships and partnerships are the ones where you know where you stand with the other,

they've got to have that foundation of predictability and a way to relate to their "person," to fall back on.

 

I find this to be very true with Jedi. With him, it's all about the relationship and trust. We have a strong routine that we follow

every day. When there are changes, he needs to know what his role is in the new environment and I need to pay

attention to that. My other dogs are like.."ok new place, got treats?" Jedi is like..."what is this place, why are we here, who

are these people, and what am I supposed to do?

 

Georgia

[MaryNH]

This is an absolutely fascinating conversation; I've learned a great deal from each of you, and a special "thank you" goes to you, Rebecca, for your comprehensive explanation of Border Collie mentality.

 

I now recognize in Travis much of what you -- all of you -- have detailed, and our appreciation of our marvelous dog is now greatly enhanced!

 

Mary Huber and Travis the Trickless WonderDog

[Krambambuli]

Very, very interesting and helpful Rebecca!

 

Dave sounds like a very smart dog. I think sometimes those are the ones that have the biggest problems, if they have any to begin with.

 

No clue if Sky really has any BC in her, but she's one of those very anxious and fearful dogs, and she's all about routine and predictability. It makes her feel safe. Just as a random example, if I take an extra walk with her at a very different time of the day, she freaks out and wants to go back home. She seems to think something along these lines: "This is an unscheduled walk -- what are you doing Lady??? This is NOT right!" Doesn't necessarily make sense to me, a walk is a walk, right? Not for Sky. I swear, she thinks too much!

 

[Cody & Duchess]

I second MaryH!!!! What wonderful, thoughtful insights. I have been thinking how lucky we are with Cody, what an amazing dog he is. Now I also realize that it helps that we are a pretty boring couple. Cody loves routine and we exist by routine. I once asked what makes a border collie different. That drive to please, along with doing almost everything the same seems to be a reoccurring theme. Thanks so much for the well written pieces.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

LOL! - Boring is good. That sums it up exactly.

 

I am going to spend the weekend with Dave and pay very close attention to everything he does and hopefully I will be observant enough to see the light more clearly

 

Make sure you don't fall into the trap of literally staring at your dog. Don't forget that's a strong signal to him that you want something. He'll go bonkers trying to figure out what it is. Take it from one who has spent years doing this working dogs on stock.

 

Just think about your interactions and try not to overthink what he does. Overcome the urge to feel like you need to "fix" his attitude, body language, or reactions. A clinician we all know and love says, "Just leave that!" If you don't like what he's doing, remove him from the situation, wait for him to calm down, and offer him a way to succeed at something.

[MaryNH]

"Boring is good!" I love it!

 

Re staring at a BC; I am finding lately (more and more) that Travis is staring at me! -- especially since I've been giving him Reiki each evening (but I'm not staring at him as I do it).

 

Since I've been giving him the Reiki, he now walks up to me each evening and stares until I start sending the Reiki (sometimes I can't get down on the floor with him, as I'm a bit of an old dog myself). So he'll just sigh and relax on the carpet in front of the fire as I send Reiki across the room from my comfy position on the sofa.

 

Also, I've always been able to sort of read his mind (predictability comes into play here, I'm sure). He will drink with relish from a mud puddle outside, but if his water dish in the kitchen has water in it that's more than a few hours old, even if it's perfectly clean, he will stare at me in an offhand sort of way, then turn away, then cut those BC eyes back to me. I know immediately that he wants FRESH water, not that old stuff.

 

(Just who is training whom here?)

 

By now you all think I'm nutso, especially with the Reiki comments.

 

Oh, well, just know that Reiki is practiced by many holistic vets, so I guess I'm in good company!

 

Loving the comments from everyone on this thread. Printing them as a reference in case we need this knowledge for our next Border (who will be a rescue, probably with some baggage).

 

Mary and Travis the Trickless Wonderdog

[shanty]

If the moon is full and I smell hot dogs, then Men In Hats Are Bad.

If the pavement is 55 degrees F and the wind is in the west, then I'll only allow people to touch me for 2.8 seconds.

If my stomach is empty, then I'll run in the other direction

If THAT dog smells like ANOTHER dog, that is small, then it will be okay. If I smell another dog on him that is BIG, then I'll attack.

 

Seriously, I think this is how Dog Aggression/Fear Rules go. This is why I tend to focus more on giving the dog "Get Over It" tools rather than trying to figure out all the things that arouse him or her, in order to counter condition.

 

ha ha ha ha ha hahahaha! I finally got it! I just joined the board the other day and you've summed it all up right here - Thank you! Is it because so many border collies ARE in tune with their people that we think THEY are the ones with issues?

 

I see my dog all over this description - for example: a man is in the park with his dog. We're ok. The man exits the park. We bark a warning. The man re-enters the park with a COWBOY hat on and we do not understand what or who this thing is! Bark, bark and circle, circle until man crouches down, calls over and removes hat where upon we eagerly huddle in to lick his face This is a day at the park with my border collie!