Samantha J Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I am worried about Holly. For a few months now she has on a few occasions had some incontinence after excercise. It was only occasional and because it was always after a lot of excercise and drinking we put it down to that. Yesterday though it got worse. She was dripping urine and leaving a few small wet patches. I rang my vet who wanted a urine sample which we did straight away. The sample showed no blood, no infection but it was very dilute. I have to take another sample in tomorrow from her morning wee. She has only had this problem after excercise and then a few hours later she is back to normal. Yesterday when it got worse it still got better a few hours later. Last night she slept on my bed like normal, no leaks and didn't get up until about 10am for a wee this morning. So she has no problems at night. I am really worried about her, i am concerned about the urine being so dilute. I have been internet reading and that does not sound good. Could it be just that she had been running though and drinking a lot and the sample was taken later in the day? When i read questions on here or on the net they usually refer to the dog going whilst they are a sleep with incontenence problems. Does anyone know of any dog that only has this after excercise and then is fine? If anyone can offer any advice it would be appreciated, it seems a long time to wait until tomorrow as i sit here worried about her. She is only 3yrs old and was spayed at about 15months old. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I just want to add another question in case anyone reads this and has had this problem before. I have been reading up and it looks like it maybe some sort of spay incontinence but the treatment is medication. As she only does it when doing a lot of jumping or a lot of running and it only last an hour or so i would prefer to just manage it as it is if this does not harm her. I don't like the idea of medicating her at her age for life for something that only occurs for an hour or two after a lot of jumping/ running. If this does turn out to be what i think it is then has anyone who has had the same thing left it and managed it without drugs. Of course if she needs them she will have them but the side effects of the drugs i have read about are pretty scary to read. Thanks again for reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljones Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Sorry, I don't know anything about spay incontinence, so I'm no real help with your situation with Holly. But I did want to tell you that I know how frustrating it can be to deal with urination problems, as I struggled with them for a long time with Johnson (who had extremely dilute urine and was eventually semi-diagnosed with diabetes insipidus). I've settled on giving him as little of the medication as possible (1/6 of a standard dose) and mostly treating his situation through management (someone being home to let him out every 4-5 hours). I have no idea if the combination of some meds + management would be an option for Holly, but I wish you luck getting a diagnosis and determining the best plan for her and for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Samantha, I have not had experience with incontinence that comes only after exercise, though maybe something a bit related. When I lived near the ocean and used to be able to take my dogs swimming a lot, Kat would ingest a lot of water (though I tried to prevent her), and then she would be unable to hold it if left in her crate for more than, say, two hours at a time for the rest of the afternoon (if I took them swimming at lunch). If I checked her every hour and gave her a chance to go pee she wouldn't have an accident, but leave her for more than an hour or so and an accident was pretty much guaranteed. I'd be willing to bet that her urine was dilute then, too, because of excessive drinking. So not quite the same situation as you, but sort of similar. How old is Holly? I have an older female (Willow) who suffers from incontinence (the type you describe--accidents in the bed overnight type thing) and meds helped her tremendously. Frankly, I am happy to use the meds because I see incontinence as a quality of life issue. Now I'm having problems with her again,and I think it's because she was put on high doses of pred to combat a recurrence of a mast cell tumor. But it is causing issues on the urine control front, even though we've upped her med amounts (and are on the downhill side on the pred). One option I was given for dealing with the newer problems was to take her off the prednisone, but I haven't chosen to do that because it really clearly seems to have worked on the mast cell tumor. I'm trying to see us through to the end of the prednisone treatment without either of us going batty. And of course I have no way of knowing if this new incontinence will let up once she's off the pred. I have Depends type pads here to put inside panties, but haven't yet resorted to that. Right now I'm just cleaning up the leaks as they happen (the poor carpet) and recognizing that we'll probably be doing a major steam cleaning soon.... (I have to admit that I checked out PPA when Willow was first put on it, but don't remember any real potentially vile side effects. And Willow doesn't seem to have experienced any side effects either.) Good luck with Holly. Let us know what the vet says. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesney's Girl Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Nothing to offer other than hope she gets better soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Thank you Angie, Julie & Danielle. Angie - A combination would work for us if it means a lower does of meds, if she does need them. Holly is never left for more than 4 hours at a time and comes out with myself or my dh a lot so they are not left home alone very often and not for long. If it is occasional and more importantly it does not affect Holly and it is safe for her for us just to watch her with clean ups when needed then i would prefer to do that than medicate her everday. Julie - Holly was 3yrs old in December. If she was doing it more often or was going in the bed at night then i would definately think it would affect her quality of life more than it is now. Then i think it might be easier for me to give her medication for it. She also sleeps on my bed if she wants so at night it would be difficult if she did do it then. At the moment it does not seem to be affecting her too much. When i was looking at some sites i read side effects that worried me like - Phenylpropanolamine stimulates a "fight or flight" response. This means that the following effects may be observed: rapid heart rate, elevation in blood pressure, and restlessness. Aggressiveness or restlessness have been noted in some dogs during treatment. I also saw that it can affect the bone marrow. I am perhaps over reacting to the side effects but Holly has such a great temperament, i would hate for it to affect her personality. The main concern one for me though was the it may effect the bone marrow. Her age bothers me a lot in giving her drugs to be honest. I am worried that her having anything too young for too long will cause other nasty things. I know that if she has got this spay incontinence then it will more than likely get worse. I guess i just hope i can keep her off drugs as long as possible if it wont harm her that is. As long as she is happy and she seems unaffected by it. Thanks again for your advice and good wishes all. I will update with what they say tomorrow after she has her second urine sample tested. They did say if it was still dilute then the next test will be a blood test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCjetta Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 The ideal urine sample will be a first morning sample because its the most likely to be concentrated because most dogs aren't drinking all night. I'm going to get a sample from my oldest dog tomorrow because my parents have noticed she seems to be drinking more and she's almost drinking more than what is recommended (66ml/kg/day). They say she can still go all night ok, but in the afternoon and evening she seems to need to go out every couple hours. On another note, our aussie who's 4 will have huge drinks after exercise sometimes and his bladder is full within an hour of drinking it. If your dog is doing the same and her bladder sphinctre is weak, then it will make her a lot more likely to leak urine. If it is the starting of incontinence, if it only happens in this type of occasion, I'd suggest limiting her water a bit after exercise (ie giving her some and then waiting 15-20 mins and letting her have more so it will take a bit longer for the bladder to fill). Also, with the aussie, I make sure I get him out 45min - 1h after having a huge drink because I don't want him to pee in his kennel (he has in the past when he was left for a few hours after a large drink). Otherwise, he can go 12 hours without peeing no problem...as long has he hasn't had a huge drink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 What BCJetta says makes sense to me as far as management goes. Willow was 10 or 11 when put on PPA. I'd try to find alternatives for a dog as young as 3 (and I really don't think she's experiencing what Willow has--it really sounds like Holly is tanking up on too much water and then is unable to hold it). FWIW, the PPA has not changed Willow's personality. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 No good advice, but my dog had the same problem earlier this year. He was drinking like crazy, and peeing a lot. Waking me up in the middle of the night to pee, which he never does. His urine sample was also very dilute. I worried A LOT that week! (You can probably find my post in the archives somewhere.) About 5 days after the urine test (and a week before they could get a guy in to do an ultrasound of Buddy's kidneys for $400!), he stopped being able to chew his dog food. Yeesh. So, I brought him to the vet, who couldn't see why there'd be any connection between a tooth problem and urination. But, the vet put him on antibiotics just in case he had an abscess tooth, and voila! The peeing and drinking problem disappeared. Buddy's been mostly better, though I still worry there's a niggling tooth issue. This time, though, I do think there's some connection - maybe a linger abscess that causes a kidney problem, or just mouth pain that's causing him to drink to relieve it. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted May 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Thank you again Julie and BC Jetta and Mary. I really appreciate all your thoughts and ideas. I got a nice big sample from Holly this morning. It filled the little pot and looked a lot better than yesterdays, it looked a lot stronger. DH dropped it off this morning and we were to ring back after 5pm. They said that it was normal and very healthy wee. There was nothing wrong with it at all. They don't need to do any further tests but suggested we change her feeding. She is on 2 meals of James wellbeloved kibble a day. They recommend giving her some soft food with it as the vet thinks Holly is not getting enough moisture in her food. Then when she excercises she drinks a lot and the bladder can't hold it. James wellbeloved do sachets too that my two sometimes have as a topper so we are going to start with replacing some kibble with a sachet and see how we go with her. There was no mention of spay incontinence or anything else it could be. I don't think my vet thinks it is that but it is still in the back of my mind. Maybe it is sort of the start of it or she will get it still as she gets older. So the advice about the meds was still very helpful to me in case the food change doesn't help and they find out it is the start of it. So it sounds very much like what BC Jetta and Julie said with her drinking a lot at once and not being able to hold it, thank you again. I am so relieved that it is nothing serious, i was so worried like Mary was with Buddy when they said it was dilute, i kept reading about incontinence and dilute urine and all the things it could be. I will have to try and find your post Mary, i don't remember reading it before. Thank you very much again all for your help. I was so worried about her and it was really nice to have somewhere to share it and ask questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljones Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 What a relief! So glad to hear that it sounds like a very easily managed situation, and I wish you and Holly all the best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I'm glad to hear that it's nothing major! You may be able to just add water to her kibble. I always add water to my dogs dish of kibble - about so the water is even with the top of the kibble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCjetta Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I always add water to my dog's kibble too and I don't see her at the water nearly as often as hubby's aussie who does not have water added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Buddy's been mostly better, though I still worry there's a niggling tooth issue. This time, though, I do think there's some connection - maybe a linger abscess that causes a kidney problem, or just mouth pain that's causing him to drink to relieve it. If you feel there may still be a tooth issue, I would strongly encourage you to get it checked out if you can. Tooth and gum infections can lead to serious heart and kidney issues later on down the road. The vet I went to for Missy's cardiac ultrasound told me that the scared mitral valve in her heart looked alot like what they might find in dogs with tooth/gum infections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted May 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I'm glad to hear that it's nothing major! You may be able to just add water to her kibble. I always add water to my dogs dish of kibble - about so the water is even with the top of the kibble. Thanks. That sounds a good idea too, i have always been put off adding water to meals before as i thought it would be better for their teeth to chew it hard. The vet nurse that told us about the results and the vets recommendation reguarding adding soft food didn't mention adding water. I wonder whether we could just add water maybe when she is going to be doing a lot of running that day or jumping over agility jumps etc. My two don't run a lot everyday, they usually go to the park about 3 times a week. The rest of the time it is walks and just being out and about with myself or my dh, which she is fine with. Eta -They do play in the garden most days and ball fetch then but she is fine with that too. So it will definately be worth a try, i could try it both ways and see how she is with both. One thing though that we did mention to the nurse was adding pumpkin. I don't know where to buy it from yet, i have not seen it for sale anywhere. I had never heard of giving it to dogs before i joined this board. I am not sure if anyone will see this now but i didn't want to start another topic up. The nurse said we could try that too after we mentioned it to her as it might help Holly anyway at the moment as she has put on a little weight lately. We have already reduced her kibble as she put on a couple of kgs but i don't think she is feeling full enough. She now gets the same amount of food as Zac. Sometimes though she acts like she is still hungry. If i can get some of this canned pumpkin then how much should i be giving her to start with? I have not a clue about how much is the right amount. Thanks again all for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 That sounds a good idea too, i have always been put off adding water to meals before as i thought it would be better for their teeth to chew it hard. I give beef ribs a couple times a month and those work great for keeping their teeth clean! As far as pumpkin, I'd probably start by replacing about a 1/4 cup of kibble with pumpkin. And then add a bit more pumpkin if she acts really hungry. You can also use canned green beans the same way if you can't find the pumpkin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 If you feel there may still be a tooth issue, I would strongly encourage you to get it checked out if you can. Tooth and gum infections can lead to serious heart and kidney issues later on down the road. The vet I went to for Missy's cardiac ultrasound told me that the scared mitral valve in her heart looked alot like what they might find in dogs with tooth/gum infections. Yeah... I did have his teeth looked at, and the vet didn't see any problems. It's just an odd chewing motion he makes sometimes. The next step the vet recommended was to put him under and do a dental; I'm reluctant to do anything so drastic when he's sassy and playful and eating well. Plus, his teeth aren't really at the point of needed the dental. It's stressful being responsible for someone else's health. I don't know how parents do it. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anda Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Nothing useful to add, but I hope Holly's problems will soon be resolved by you managing her water intake and her meals. She is such a young dog to have to go through this. My first dog, Blackie, had incontinence problems in the last year of her life, but it was due to all the heart medicine she was getting (in addition to being spayed) - there was one particular injection that would make her pee herself within 10 minutes of being administered - but since it literally kept her alive, we put up with this for the rest of her life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted May 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 It's stressful being responsible for someone else's health. I don't know how parents do it. Mary I am with you on that one, i was actually a little tearful when i knew that Holly was ok. I can put up with the odd bit of urine leakage from her if i know she is fit and well but to think she might have had something more serious worried me a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted May 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Nothing useful to add, but I hope Holly's problems will soon be resolved by you managing her water intake and her meals. She is such a young dog to have to go through this. My first dog, Blackie, had incontinence problems in the last year of her life, but it was due to all the heart medicine she was getting (in addition to being spayed) - there was one particular injection that would make her pee herself within 10 minutes of being administered - but since it literally kept her alive, we put up with this for the rest of her life. Thanks Anda, you were commenting the same time as me..lol We have a few things to try now so hopefully it will help even if it does not completely disappear. We went through a few problems with our little Tammy. She was Diabetic for 6 yrs and although we managed her condition well she did sometimes just have to go where ever she was. She got worse the last year or so as she got older, thinking about it now she might have had some spay incontinence as well actually but we put it all down to her Diabetes and age at the time. I give beef ribs a couple times a month and those work great for keeping their teeth clean! As far as pumpkin, I'd probably start by replacing about a 1/4 cup of kibble with pumpkin. And then add a bit more pumpkin if she acts really hungry. You can also use canned green beans the same way if you can't find the pumpkin. Maralyn - Thank you, i have been looking on the internet and it seems we dont sell it much over here. It does say that Waitrose sells it in some stores and we have one of those in Peterborough. I will try there first and if not will look into where else i can get it. Green beans - do you mean the ones you eat in the pods we call Runner beans?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 It's stressful being responsible for someone else's health. I don't know how parents do it. You said it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anda Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Yes, She means "haricot verts" - these Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted May 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Yes, She means "haricot verts" - these Thanks..i thought so but thought i better check. I presumed they were known to us all as Runner beans actually until a while ago when someone asked what one was on my blog. It didn't occur to me that we might call them different names then. I have never heard of feeding them, you must be able to get them just in water and not with added sugars. I will have to have a look out for those as well. On a side note and OT... i have seen that the canned pumpkin that some Waitrose stores sell is made by Libby's. So i looked it up and saw they also make a pumpkin pie mix. I hope they sell that in my local town too, i have still never tried it. I want to make one of those to try now ..hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Samantha, I always add water to my dogs' kibble, sometimes referring to it as "kibble soup." I may add less water in the winter months, but during trial season especially, I put plenty of water in with the kibble. It's my belief that by doing so I am helping the body to conserve water by providing an external source of liquid to aid with digestion, and I am also keeping the dogs well hydrated when they might otherwise not choose to do so voluntarily. This is especially important for dogs who will be working and making physical demands on their bodies. My reasoning may not be physiologically sound (but I believe it is), and then I don't have to worry about my dogs going into a work situation already slightly dehydrated (which makes them less likely to "tank up" after working and create the situation you describe with Holly). Plus water is a cheaper and more natural way to hydrate a dog than wet dog food is! For teeth cleaning, mine get occasional raw meaty bones and also cow hooves to chew on. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted May 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Julie, It does make sense to add water with the kibble rather than let them drink after when they feel like it. They can drink after eating as well of course if they want i just mean it might digest better with some liquid with it as well. I will definately give it a go. I can also understand how it might make her less thirsty after doing lots of running too. Holly does drink a lot sometimes after excercise, especially when it is warm out. Zac does too though so i will do the same for him and add some liquid. Also i am not that keen on giving her sachet food everyday anyway, it is a very good make and quality food they are on but i am not keen on giving soft food really. I always think it has a lot of added sugars and things to make it taste so nice to them. They get it somedays as a topper especially when Zac is on one of those i don't want to eat days. He always eats when there is some of that on it. I thought maybe i could just add the water in the morning food and keep the late meal as dry as they don't do anything after then. I might try it that way first and see if that helps. I am also trying to get the pumpkin as well ( my mum is in town now so she is checking out that store for me) Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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