NancyO Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I have a 10 month old pup, that we thought might not be real keen yet, as he would go slow around his sheep. I was working him at a clinic this weekend and someone noted that when the dog is going around it's sheep, it's running on the wrong lead, thus making it awkward for the dog to circle it's sheep. The dog does this in both directions. Hope I am explaining this correctly, horse people can correct me if I'm wrong. When circling to the right (the away side) the dog is leading with his outside leg, instead of his inside leg, making it slow and awkward to get around the sheep. The same happens on the opposite side. There are times he moves faster, and if you watch him, he is leading with the correct leg, but then he hitches up and leads with the wrong leg and becomes slow. The dog has never been lame either in the front or rear. Runs in the fields without any problems. I'm going to start working him on a regular basis and see if it improves. Haven't been working him as the slowness appeared to be a keeness issue and he was still young. This dog has been taken out once every few weeks, tried on sheep and put up again. Has anyone seen this? Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseAmy Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Nancy Does he do this just on sheep? Or does he also do it when he's running around playing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Nancy, as an old horse person, I watch sidedness and leads pretty consistently. I notice they will normally prefer one lead over the other and use one as much as 2/3 versus 1/3 of the time even when going each way equally. IOW, they will run on the wrong (preferred) lead some of the time because it's their strongest side. This will also depend on how tight the circle is, how unbalanced it is to run on the wrong lead, and how long they've been running on the same lead. The lack of balance may outweigh the lead preference. One question I have is is he "cross cantering" i.e., running on the correct lead in front and the wrong lead in back, wrong in front correct in back, or is he just running on the wrong lead back and front? RoseAmy's question is a good one too. It sounds like a developmental balance thing to me. I would see how he does over a bit more time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I would take him off sheep a bit and let his body grow up. He sounds like some of the male pups we've been working here. They can either get their head right or their feet, not both. Time cures many things. My concern with working a developmentally immature pup like this on stock is that he will learn short cuts around his body that will be bad habits later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyO Posted May 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Nancy Does he do this just on sheep? Or does he also do it when he's running around playing? He hasn't been allowed to herd other dogs as he's been growing up, so I've not really noticed a problem. When he is out running in the fields with other dogs, under supervision, he seems to run normally. But this would be mainly straight line running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyO Posted May 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Nancy, as an old horse person, I watch sidedness and leads pretty consistently. I notice they will normally prefer one lead over the other and use one as much as 2/3 versus 1/3 of the time even when going each way equally. IOW, they will run on the wrong (preferred) lead some of the time because it's their strongest side. This will also depend on how tight the circle is, how unbalanced it is to run on the wrong lead, and how long they've been running on the same lead. The lack of balance may outweigh the lead preference. One question I have is is he "cross cantering" i.e., running on the correct lead in front and the wrong lead in back, wrong in front correct in back, or is he just running on the wrong lead back and front? RoseAmy's question is a good one too. It sounds like a developmental balance thing to me. I would see how he does over a bit more time. Denise, I'll have to look at this closer and get back to you, I may have to have a horse friend look at him to be able to figure it out for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyO Posted May 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I would take him off sheep a bit and let his body grow up. He sounds like some of the male pups we've been working here. They can either get their head right or their feet, not both. Time cures many things. My concern with working a developmentally immature pup like this on stock is that he will learn short cuts around his body that will be bad habits later. As Norm worked him at the clinic, he improved with his movements, so I'm thinking I may try him and see if I like what I see, if not, I'll put him up again. It seemed as he was worked, and I'm talking about 5-7 minutes, you could see him learning to use his body in the correct way, his movements became smoother, he changed direction smoothly and his comebye direction became easier. I agree time cures many things, that's why he's been put up and not worked. I did see his sister worked, and she did not have the same issue, she worked like a normal young pup going around sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Bovee Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 It sounds as if he is considering needing to bend out wider (which might also be part of his slowing down). What is his head doing? Turning one way or the other. I don't think there is a "'wrong" lead - I often see my dogs running on the outside lead when they are out playing and running huge curves. When one of my dogs changes leads I know a slice is coming!!!! Somewhere, sometime long ago I read about race horses being kept on the outside lead for stability - I'll see if I can find something. Nancy B I have a 10 month old pup, that we thought might not be real keen yet, as he would go slow around his sheep. I was working him at a clinic this weekend and someone noted that when the dog is going around it's sheep, it's running on the wrong lead, thus making it awkward for the dog to circle it's sheep. The dog does this in both directions. Hope I am explaining this correctly, horse people can correct me if I'm wrong. When circling to the right (the away side) the dog is leading with his outside leg, instead of his inside leg, making it slow and awkward to get around the sheep. The same happens on the opposite side. There are times he moves faster, and if you watch him, he is leading with the correct leg, but then he hitches up and leads with the wrong leg and becomes slow. The dog has never been lame either in the front or rear. Runs in the fields without any problems. I'm going to start working him on a regular basis and see if it improves. Haven't been working him as the slowness appeared to be a keeness issue and he was still young. This dog has been taken out once every few weeks, tried on sheep and put up again. Has anyone seen this? Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Somewhere, sometime long ago I read about race horses being kept on the outside lead for stability - I'll see if I can find something. Nancy B I think they switch to the outside lead only on the straightaway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I did see his sister worked, and she did not have the same issue, she worked like a normal young pup going around sheep. Female pups from the litter are going to physically mature a lot faster than the males. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 On the lead switching on race horses, it would seem to me that the split second "hesitation" that occurs with a flying lead change could make the difference between winning and losing, but I'm no race expert, and perhaps if they all do it then it doesn't matter. Nancy, I've noticed my young dogs sometimes on the "wrong" lead, but not often and it doesn't seem to slow them down, but they're more mature physically as well. I would think that if he were cross cantering it would be very noticeable as his back would be "rolling" or twisting to accommodate the different leads front and back (on a horse, it's an extremely awkward feel when they're cross cantering). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Interesting discussion, I just went through some pictures that I took of JJ this past weekend, when he is out flanking he is on the correct lead, but he's the type that lopes around like a dressage horse changing leads as he looks from left to right, it's fun to watch him. I would let the pup mature more to see if he can work it out, it sounds like growth/maturity has not caught up with him yet. Also, leads and hind quarter strength are closely related, so allowing him to practice turns and changes in play would not be a bad idea, the boys are always allowed to go out and play tag, I just watch to make sure it does not get too rough. Since we are relating this to horses I was just thinking about the mechanics of when the dog initiates a square flank the first part would be simular to a horses rollback, I think you expect the horse to lead with his inside leg, or the leg that is reaching to the rollback, then if you circle away from the direction that the rollback leads to you have to ask for a lead change, or the horse just changes lead. Sometimes I need to sit the horse and go through it to refresh myself of the mechanics of it.... Reining horses always roll back to the outside setting them up for the proper lead to next circle, with working cow horses we roll back a little differently concentrating on picking the inside shoulder up and driving it past the ribcage as they are rolling back so they lead out properly due to the next turn being toward the cow or opposite of a reining horse. We also build in a little arch or teardrop out and away so that they can get around the cow to make the stop and turn, it's a pressure release on the cow simular to a square flank. Some horses pick it up naturally, others we need to teach it to so that we don't flounder too long on the incorrect lead. Even with out rope horses we teach them to come out of the box in the correct lead. So, if you want an away to me the dog should first lead and reach with his right front paw then has to do a lead change putting him on the arc of the flank, so that he can easily manuver the inside vs. mauvering toward the outside. If the horse is not strong enough or heavy on the forehand he won't be able to pick up his shoulders and lift his ribs to execute the change and will continue on the counter canterflank would call for then he would need to change to the correct lead as he leaves the rollback. If it was a horse I would be looking into hocks, hips and stifles, or if they were young just letting it get more maturity, many people don't think about it but the lead starts from the hindquarters, if the hindquarters aren't working right the lead change will flounder. Sorry to ramble, I hope I typed it in away the transfers from my brain to type.... Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderHill Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 If the dog looks like he's carrying himself awkwardly and not bending well doing moderately small circles in one direction, then I would suspect a developmental issue that will probably sort itself out with time. I'd worry more about the clumsiness than technically being on the "wrong" lead. As a related issue -- dogs' skeletons are significantly different from horses, particularly their spines (enormously more flexible) and front legs (they have two independent bones in their "forearms" same as humans, where a horse has a fused cannon bone). That's how a racing greyhound manages to have the same stride length as a racing Thoroughbred (~33 feet); in addition to their legs, they "caterpillar" their entire bodies. Between that structural flexibility, and the physics of being smaller packages overall, dogs are also much more adaptable about their gaits than horses. The preferred working gait of many herding breeds tends to be a "rotary gallop" and/or counter-canter: one "lead" in front and the other "lead" behind. They can do a "normal" canter but they'll switch back and forth in the blink of an eye with no loss of balance or speed. Many of the dogs I've watched carefully in action seem to have a preferred pattern behind, then they switch front leads as needed. As someone raised on traditional English riding methods, and the practice of using horse conformation to analyze dog conformation, it took me a long time and a lot of videos before I was convinced of this. But watch your dog(s) and see for yourself. Apologies for the digression. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Please continue to digress!!! I've always said, when watching my dogs work, jump, and run, that I wouldn't want to ride a horse like them ever. I don't believe I could stay in the saddle on them. They can do things with their spines and legs that just make me go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Hello all, Nancy, you say that your dog will travel on the wrong lead in both directions, so it doesn't seem that this is "handedness." You mention that he doesn't work as quickly as you would like and you've put him up to see if he becomes more keen. If he were mine, I believe I would work on that issue first and see if the lead issue corrects itself, and I'll bet it will. I wonder if he needs to be put up, or worked more freely, have his sheep more, make a mess and just basically have more fun. You said something about him not being allowed to work the other dogs growing up and that makes me wonder if he might feel just a little screwed down and cautious and whether that could be causing his slow pace and wrong lead. I'd let him have fun his way for a while and see what happens. Re the race horse question. They definitely travel the turns on the correct lead. The stress on their bodies while running defies understanding and if they ran as hard as they must to even train for the track in the wrong lead, they would simply break apart, which they do sometimes anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 FWIW I googled it and one person who I found no credentials for said they're trained to start out on their right (outside lead), change to the left (correct inside lead) for the turns, and switch back the the right for the straightaways. This sounds right to me (I used to own an ex-racehorse). I don't think they could make the turns on the wrong lead. They probably switch to the outside on the straightways to reduce fatigue on inside legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I don't think they could make the turns on the wrong lead. They probably switch to the outside on the straightways to reduce fatigue on inside legs. Correct, they switch on the straight to take stress off the side they were using. Sorry about the hijack... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Correct, they switch on the straight to take stress off the side they were using. Sorry about the hijack... hey you're online Here's my witness the the uncoordinated 10 month old pups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda-pop Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Just a thought: I wonder if you could do something small to turn his head towards the center of the arc (a kissy noise, a wiggly movement--something like that) making it more uncomfortable for him to be on the wrong lead and hopefully "force" him to switch to the correct lead, where his body would learn that it's more comfortable to be on the correct lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I have a 10 month old pup, that we thought might not be real keen yet, as he would go slow around his sheep. I was working him at a clinic this weekend and someone noted that when the dog is going around it's sheep, it's running on the wrong lead, thus making it awkward for the dog to circle it's sheep. The dog does this in both directions. Hope I am explaining this correctly, horse people can correct me if I'm wrong. When circling to the right (the away side) the dog is leading with his outside leg, instead of his inside leg, making it slow and awkward to get around the sheep. The same happens on the opposite side. There are times he moves faster, and if you watch him, he is leading with the correct leg, but then he hitches up and leads with the wrong leg and becomes slow. The dog has never been lame either in the front or rear. Runs in the fields without any problems. I'm going to start working him on a regular basis and see if it improves. Haven't been working him as the slowness appeared to be a keeness issue and he was still young. This dog has been taken out once every few weeks, tried on sheep and put up again. Has anyone seen this? Any suggestions? Hi Nancy. I think you've just got a young fellow who needs to be worked a little more rather than being put up. He needs to find his feet and working him on sheep will help him do this. He's probably a little confused and the eye foot coordination isn't working too well yet but I think you'll find it will in a couple of weeks of work every day. You must remember that when we start riding and training a horse we teach him his leads by putting pressure on him with our outside leg and turning his head out to make him lead with the inside leg. Lots of horses don't lead naturally and have to be taught. It's pretty hard to ride the dog and teach him his lead but he will find it when his coordination starts to develop and his moves become more automatic. cheers.....Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyO Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Hello all, Nancy, you say that your dog will travel on the wrong lead in both directions, so it doesn't seem that this is "handedness." You mention that he doesn't work as quickly as you would like and you've put him up to see if he becomes more keen. If he were mine, I believe I would work on that issue first and see if the lead issue corrects itself, and I'll bet it will. I wonder if he needs to be put up, or worked more freely, have his sheep more, make a mess and just basically have more fun. You said something about him not being allowed to work the other dogs growing up and that makes me wonder if he might feel just a little screwed down and cautious and whether that could be causing his slow pace and wrong lead. I'd let him have fun his way for a while and see what happens. Re the race horse question. They definitely travel the turns on the correct lead. The stress on their bodies while running defies understanding and if they ran as hard as they must to even train for the track in the wrong lead, they would simply break apart, which they do sometimes anyway. Hi Amelia, He'd be very happy to run straight into the sheep and chase them and then hold them against the fence, but to go around them, no. I've had some well known clinicians look at him for thier thoughts on him. All agreed that it would take some pressure to get him around his sheep, hence the reason I keep putting him up as he is still young. He's been allowed to play and run with the other dogs and runs in the fields every day, he's just not been allowed to work them, I don't allow any of my dogs to do that. When he runs in the fields or out with the other dogs, he runs fast with no gait problems or rear problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyO Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Hi Nancy. I think you've just got a young fellow who needs to be worked a little more rather than being put up. He needs to find his feet and working him on sheep will help him do this. He's probably a little confused and the eye foot coordination isn't working too well yet but I think you'll find it will in a couple of weeks of work every day. You must remember that when we start riding and training a horse we teach him his leads by putting pressure on him with our outside leg and turning his head out to make him lead with the inside leg. Lots of horses don't lead naturally and have to be taught. It's pretty hard to ride the dog and teach him his lead but he will find it when his coordination starts to develop and his moves become more automatic. cheers.....Bob Hi Bob, He did improve alot when he was worked 2 days at the clinic for short periods of time. I'm going to see how it goes. "It's pretty hard to ride the dog and teach him his lead" Bob, immediately what came to mind was putting a monkey on his back and letting the monkey ride him (and for the rest of you, YES it's a joke!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBQH Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I don't know a whole lot of detail about herding or the specific training that goes into it. I have a couple of border collies that I use to move cattle for me while I train my cutting horses. I've read lots of the topics here and find it interesting but never thought I had anything to offer. Maybe I do here. First, I don't think there is a wrong lead for the dogs when circling. As agile and coordinated as these dogs are, unless they are running in a very tight circle, you probably should not even notice what lead they are in unless you really look for it. The tighter the circle, the more noticeable it would be. But... Most horse people would tell you that a proper circle for a horse that was loping (cantering) a circle to the right would be in the right lead, hip tucked up and slightly to the inside of the circle, ribcage to the outside of the arc, shoulders up, nose tipped to the inside the circle. If you looked down on the horse from above, it's body would be in the same arc as the circle. There might be more detail to it for some, but those are the main items. If you ever go to a cutting horse contest, you will likely see most of the horses in the loping pen doing it just as I described. That is where I differ from most cutting horse folks. Fact is, I don't care how the horse's body is shaped in the loping pen or, if push come to shove, what lead the horse is loping in. I think this is where there is some common ground between cutting horses and border collies. When working a cow, the cutting horse needs to do everything we want from a horse loping in a circle...except exactly the opposite. If the cow that is cut is moving to the horse's right, we want the horse to be in its right lead (again for a circle to the right), hip tucked up but to the left side, rib cage out to the right, shoulders up, nose tipped to the left. Just the opposite to the left. Basically, we want the horse to arc its body inside the circle. Why? Because this is the most athletic position we can put the horse in to be able to stop and turn around without its legs and body getting in the way. The dogs have to do the same thing. Like I said, I don't know very much about herding or the finer points so everything I wrote in here might be hooey... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 "When working a cow, the cutting horse needs to do everything we want from a horse loping in a circle...except exactly the opposite. If the cow that is cut is moving to the horse's right, we want the horse to be in its right lead (again for a circle to the right), hip tucked up but to the left side, rib cage out to the right, shoulders up, nose tipped to the left. Just the opposite to the left. Basically, we want the horse to arc its body inside the circle. Why? Because this is the most athletic position we can put the horse in to be able to stop and turn around without its legs and body getting in the way. The dogs have to do the same thing." Makes sense to me. Is that what your turn back dogs do? I've never noticed that dogs on the outside lead tend to slice or be too tight on that side with any greater frequency than dogs favoring an inside, and I have looked. Now I'm going to try to see if the opposite is true in situations where quick control is needed. That's going to be hard to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I've never noticed that dogs on the outside lead tend to slice or be too tight on that side with any greater frequency than dogs favoring an inside, and I have looked. I've not noticed that either.... But, what I have noticed though, that most dogs that are in the right lead while dropping a shoulder and their rib cage while circling/flanking are in the action of a slice. Take the time to see it begin and get them to pick up their shoulder and they stop slicing. It's kinda interesting to play with, the sheep will also react when the dog drops the shoulder, lift the shoulder the sheep settle, drop the shoulder they alert and get nervous, kinda like an on/off deal. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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