BC's and pointing

[flyer]

I was listening to a radio show yesterday about creativity when the PHD used an example of something that sets us apart from other animals besides our imagination. He said point at something, your dog will look at your finger, while a human will look at where you are pointing.

 

So, is it just BC's that will look where you point, because mine certainly does every time and will fetch whatever it is I am pointing at if I ask him to?

 

Are there other things BC's do that other dogs do not?

 

Flyer

[Anda]

Ouzo has been doing this since he was just 3 months old - always looking at the direction my finger points to rather than at my finger It later evolved in more subtle clues such as eye movements or head tilts to signify the direction he needs to look.

[desertranger]

Yes BCs are difference. Vastly different. Even in obedience class our instructors tell everyone not to pay attention to how well their dogs are doing compared to Jin because BCs are different.

 

Flyer is this your first BC?

[Root Beer]

My dogs didn't look where I pointed until I taught them the Look at That game. Now they all look where I point.

 

One thing that the Border Collies have always done, though, is to read the direction that I pull my arm back to know exactly where a ball will go once launched. It's tough to fool them, too!

[Murphys mom]

Murphy has done the pointing thing for a while now. When we are outside with all the distractions and he loses his toy or ball, I can point him to it.

 

Another thing happened yesterday in the car. He was riding shotgun as usual and I came to a corner and told him to hang on, he moved one paw out as if to balance himself before we even started to turn! I can't wait to test it again to see if he actually knows what is going to happen.

 

Another thing that is almost creepy sometimes, is when I leave him outside alone for a few minutes to run in the house to do something. I look out the window every few seconds to check on him and most times no matter what window I look out, he will turn and look at me. My daughter freaked out the first time she saw him do it. How does he know?

[mbc1963]

That is a ridiculous notion - that dogs don't understand pointing.

 

Every single dog I've ever owned, border collie or not, has understood pointing. I can point with my hands or feet, and my dog understands what I'm telling him.

 

In dog body language, "pointing" is staring directly at something. Dogs don't have pointer fingers, but they absolutely understand that when another dog turns and looks at something, there's something to look at - and they'll stare in the same direction as the other dog. So, they need to be trained in the human body language equivalent - but I'd say that babies probably also need to be trained in that, early on. In fact, my trainer pointed out that before my dog learned the finger-point thing, he was already looking where I was looking - assuming that I understood dog language and was trying to "point" with my head.

 

I always get a little annoyed when people who clearly don't know animals point out some big "difference" between humans and animals that's not really a difference at all. Did this radio guy even talk to anyone who owned a dog, or was he just using his cousin's stupid dog to develop this theory? A little research would have quickly cleared this up for him.

 

Mary

[Pippin's person]

Dogs of many different breeds and non-breeds have been shown to understand pointing. I don't know if they actually look there first--I can't remember what the studies said about that.

 

You can read some general comments about that work at discovery science

 

In the pointing studies I've read, none of the dogs involved were Border Collies.

 

One thing that does seem quite different between humans and non-humans is the degree to which we think symbolically and abstractly--no other species has anything like our system of language or our system of mathematics (ETA: or our system of morality)--both of which seem to have provided humans a fairly significant advantage (or disadvantage depending on your vantage.... )

[Shetlander]

I thought there was some study recently where they looked at puppies that hadn't had much or any exposure to humans and when people pointed, the puppies were more likely to look at where the person was pointing than some other kind of infant --- can't remember if it was wolf pups or baby chimps (kinda a big difference).

 

Well, whatever the scientists say, all my dogs know to look where I point. In fact because of this, I made pointing a cue for the trick dog Lhasa and say "did you lose something?" He then starts sniffing around on the floor.

[pansmom]

Pan didn't look where I pointed as a puppy (only looking at my finger), but she does now. I had to teach her. But it has been my experience that she is waaaaaaaaaaaay smarter than any other dog I have ever been in contact with. I had no idea dogs could be this smart. At basic training, she would watch the instructor do something and then do it herself. Especially if there was a word involved. She learns words very quickly - commands, names of toys - and lately since we have been learning 'speak' she vocalizes more in a variety of tones, trying to express her emotion with the tenor of the sound. Any minute now I expect her to sit down, look at me, and begin to explain in clear, concise language exactly what has been going on.

[Laurelin]

So, is it just BC's that will look where you point, because mine certainly does every time and will fetch whatever it is I am pointing at if I ask him to?

 

My dogs do that (with the exception of the sheltie who is not all there mentally, I am convinced). None are bcs so I don't think it's a breed specific thing at all. With Beau especially, I've always been able to direct him to anything simply by pointing. Now I can point at anything and ask him to bring it to me and he will. We never formally trained that it's just something we worked out. He's always been a brilliant little dog and very intuitive.

 

My dogs didn't look where I pointed until I taught them the Look at That game. Now they all look where I point.

 

One thing that the Border Collies have always done, though, is to read the direction that I pull my arm back to know exactly where a ball will go once launched. It's tough to fool them, too!

 

There is a difference between fetch with Summer and the others. The others will turn around and anticipate where the ball will go whereas Summer always watches my arm and adjusts based on the subtle changes there. You can't get anything past her either. If you fake throw, you can fool the boys but she never even flinches. The weird thing is she doesn't play fetch often but when she does, she never loses.

[flyer]

You just can't trust a PHD these days.

 

Colt will also come for various body signals from me, i.e. I crook my pointer finger like come here, tilt/nod my head back a bit. He will also move off in any direction I signal with a tilt/nod of my head.

[Laurelin]

You just can't trust a PHD these days.

 

Colt will also come for various body signals from me, i.e. I crook my pointer finger like come here, tilt/nod my head back a bit. He will also move off in any direction I signal with a tilt/nod of my head.

 

Mine do that too except I don't really nod, just motion my hand the way I want her to go. I'm not inclined to think it's breed specific. Maybe it does have something to do with breed in that some breeds are bred to work closer to humans and might be more apt at reading subtleties. It could also do with the bond between you and the individual dog. I'm sure as we become familiar with their quirks/body language, they do ours.

 

There are always duds in even 'smart' breeds. I have one, lol. Shelties are always listed up there on the intelligence lists but mine's pretty much incapable of reading dog or human body language.

[flyer]

Yes BCs are difference. Vastly different. Even in obedience class our instructors tell everyone not to pay attention to how well their dogs are doing compared to Jin because BCs are different.

 

Flyer is this your first BC?

 

 

Yes, Colt is my first BC. My last dog was a BC x husky. Wonderful dog. We had to get a BC to come up to her standard.

 

Colt and our family just started obedience classes. He is 5 and 1/2 mos. old. I took him to see if we could still work in a small space with distraction. Two of his best canine buds are in the class. Yes, he was very very excited, but when it came time to work he was just as enthusiastic for that. Colt's ability to focus and to go from exuberance to chill in a split second is uncanny. He has always just been this way.

 

So to challenge us and get something out of the class my daughter and I are working most of the time without treats. Of course when one of his pals is pawing his flank and he still responds to me he gets the best treat I have on hand. I've been doing this elsewhere now as well. The class is also really good for my son and husband who love the dog, but not so much the training. They are starting to enjoy this aspect as well.

[JohnLloydJones]

I was listening to a radio show yesterday about creativity when the PHD used an example of something that sets us apart from other animals besides our imagination. He said point at something, your dog will look at your finger, while a human will look at where you are pointing.

 

I can't just place where I read it, but I'm pretty sure that there was some research done, where dogs showed themselves to be far better at understanding the pointing gesture than non-human primates (who pretty much flunked). This is reasonable, given dogs adaptation to living and working with us. All the dogs I have know (pretty much all sheepdogs) have understood the gesture very well. I think the radio show person needs to go back and test the hypothesis.

[D'Elle]

Another thing that is almost creepy sometimes, is when I leave him outside alone for a few minutes to run in the house to do something. I look out the window every few seconds to check on him and most times no matter what window I look out, he will turn and look at me. My daughter freaked out the first time she saw him do it. How does he know?

 

 

This sounds familliar. Jester will play exuberantly with Kit if no one is watching, but when I am around he would rather have attention from me. I have found that if I want to watch them play it's not good enough for me to watch out the window. I have to be hidden behind a shade so he cannot see me looking out the window, because even if I creep up to the bare window and peek out he will sense it immediately and stop playing to turn his head towards me.

These dogs are truly amazing. I cannot imagine my life without them.

 

D'Elle, Jes, and Kit

[Tuxedodog]

I think people just want to feel superior to animals so they decide on attributes that animals can' t possibly have and say that is what makes us smarter, better, whatever. My horse uses tools. Give him something too big to eat, and he will put it back in my hand, whatever position my hand is in, and when I take hold, he bites a chunk off. I think if you spend enough time with your animals (and why have them if your aren't going to) you will find a number of things that they aren' t supposed to do. I sometimes think that the animals think that I am not to bright when I don' t do what they want when they request it. When the cat wants to go into the basement and I ignore him, he jumps up and grabs the door knob to show me what I should be doing. You have to wonder if the researchers ever had any pets.

[desertranger]

Pan didn't look where I pointed as a puppy (only looking at my finger), but she does now. I had to teach her. But it has been my experience that she is waaaaaaaaaaaay smarter than any other dog I have ever been in contact with. I had no idea dogs could be this smart. At basic training, she would watch the instructor do something and then do it herself. Especially if there was a word involved. She learns words very quickly - commands, names of toys - and lately since we have been learning 'speak' she vocalizes more in a variety of tones, trying to express her emotion with the tenor of the sound. Any minute now I expect her to sit down, look at me, and begin to explain in clear, concise language exactly what has been going on.

 

You are in for a treat. BCs are smarter than your fifth grader. Let me give you a warning here. They are also a lot smarter than you. When I won't play ball with Jin he comes to me and throws the ball down on to my feet. He doesn't miss and he does it on purpose with attitude. With no formal training in fetch he will go and find a ball on command and bring it to me. don't forget Jins age.

 

You guys with your first BCs are going t0 spend the next couple of years in amazement. enjoy

[Ooky]

I can't just place where I read it, but I'm pretty sure that there was some research done, where dogs showed themselves to be far better at understanding the pointing gesture than non-human primates (who pretty much flunked). This is reasonable, given dogs adaptation to living and working with us. All the dogs I have know (pretty much all sheepdogs) have understood the gesture very well. I think the radio show person needs to go back and test the hypothesis.

 

Temple Grandin talks about this in her new book, Animals in Translation (good read, btw!) ONLY dogs (I guess not every individual dog, but not limited to breed either) can do this. Not chimps, and not dolphins. Dogs really are a distinct product of intense co-evolution with man!

 

But it's not unheard of, in the animal kingdom, for different species to learn each other's alarm calls, even to the point where burrowing owls will do different behaviors for prairie dog calls that mean "look out, danger from above" and those that mean "coyote incoming". Too bad black-footed ferrets are essentially gone, it would be interesting to see if that is different too because they would come from below! Also, the burrowing owls I knew on prairie dog towns, which were a different subspecies that the burrowing owl here, had different calls that SOUNDED like prairie dogs - not all the pdog calls but two in particular. One was a warbly little close-up alarm call when I came near, given from inside the burrow, and the other was an "all clear!" call. I guess my point with this is with co-evolution, much more interspecies communication is possible than with closely related animals that don't hang out together and depend on each other for increased fitness, like us and dogs. And we've actively directed the dog's selection pressures so much for millennia on top of normal mutualism.

 

But oh yeah, this dog is scary smart. I'm pretty sure he gets a lot more of what I'm saying that I do about what HE'S saying - who sounds smarter there? Odin will look at something I point at (I tried after reading the book), but I did have to show him what I meant first. Like twice, maybe three times?

[desertranger]

I learned that today when showing Jin off at the pet store. I had never done this before. I carried two balls down the aisle and placed them about 10ft apart and was able to go back and quietly tell him to go find the ball. He brought the first one back and without being told he went after the second one and brought that back as well.

 

I'm doing an experiment as I write this. It took about 15 minutes to teach Jin to fetch multiple balls. Toss 3, fetch one, then sit, wait and go find the next one. I'm not giving him commands but talking to him in sentences. He did very well doing several sets I thought he lost interest because he went for a drink. After a visit to the water bowl he brought me the third ball without being told and we started again. Then he figured out the game and changed the rules. They're way more than scary smart.

[mtnbound]

Interesting thread. Our Toller, Darci grasped pointing without any training. Kona, the BC, still stares at the end of the finger.