Dixie_Girl Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Well, Jackson had another lesson yesterday. I didn't post because I was too upset. It seems he is fine on the sheep, as long as he isn't pushed to do what we want. My trainer had me go in with him and he was a bit keener, but not much. I asked her about the playing thing that I do at home. She said some dogs will get "hooked" on balls or frisbees and not want to work sheep. She had a ball and when she gave it to me and I showed Jackson, he went all serious, as usual, and she said now that is how he should be with the sheep. So now we don't know if he will ever be like that with sheep. This week I am going to take ALL toys away from him and since we are going every week, we are hoping maybe he will switch his passion over to the sheep. She said some dogs will click on, some won't, even with good breeding. Has anyone encountered this prob? What were the results? If the results were good, what did you do? Do you think the "no play" ploy will work? I had planned on getting a pup this spring/summer, but have since decided to hold off till I find out what happens with Jackson. I don't want to bring another pup into the mix where I am playing with Jackson but not it. This may sound confusing. I have a terrible tooth ache on top of everything else! Anyway, any and all advise will be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Despite good breeding some dogs do not make good stock dogs. Years ago I "tried" a littermate to Renee's Starr (Starr is currently running in Open). This dog had a bad experience around sheep early in her life and whenever she was pushed to do something she didn't want to (on sheep) she would run out of the field/paddock. Granted this dog had a bad experience; but the propensity to react this way must have been there. I have a littermate to Renee's Rae (Rae is currently running in Open); Gyp has more intensity on a Frisbee than on sheep. It's not that she doesn't have the desire to work sheep; for some reason she doesn't put on the speed when needed on sheep like she will for the toy. She also lacks the talent that Rae got. I worked with Gyp for many years and she is what she is. Gyp isn't Rae; she can be useful for some chores with a lot of work. It's unlikely she will ever progress much beyond a mediocre PN dog. Without watching Jackson, there is no way I can make a guess as to if he will progress. It will be hard to progress if he will not accept doing the work the right way. He will either have to keen up so he will have drive to get past the pressue of corrections or you will have to find a way to have him want to do things right. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Sometimes it is a hurdle- that inexperienced dogs need to get over- that working sheep is a TEAM job. They don't really want to be TOLD what to do, and instant gratification comes from the toys. I am not sure removing toys will work better than, if you can, getting him on sheep more. He is relatively new, so I wouldn't be too concerned just yet Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 I don't know who your trainer is or what the setup is like, but sometimes dogs do better with different people or different setups or different sheep. Nothing against your trainer but it might be worth trying another place to see if that helps at all. Some dogs also need several exposures to sheep before getting really good and turned on, and asking them to do something ("pushing him to do something") might just be too much pressure at this early point for him. I don't think taking his toys way will do anything at all but that's just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivia Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Maybe this sounds strange but this is what I did with my dog once. She has worked sheep since she was a year old but when we moved to TN we didn't have access for about 7 months. We played a lot of ball/frisbee. When we started working sheep again she was her old serious self until one day someone outside the field threw a frisbee to the group of border collies waiting their turn. She stopped her drive, and turned away from the sheep to watch the frisbee. I started running backward away from the sheep, who had started wandering away, calling in a fairly high pitched voice for her to "come help, where did you go?, Carlie I need you!" When she saw her sheep getting away and me going the other direction calling she remembered her true job, turned on the speed, covered and had them fetched. She never offered to leave them again. Don't know if that would work on Jackson as Carlie knew sheep work before the intense frisbee time, though we had always played some frisbee just not as much as during the sheep break. Might be worth a try, let him think you need him and perhaps he will leave the frisbee to help? Any thoughts? Olivia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted April 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Thanks all for the input. Sounds like the general concensous is taking the toys away won't help. This is his 3rd lesson. The first one being in Dec. Then last week and this week. He is almost 16mos old. He loves to chase the sheep. But putting a correction on him to say change directions, he tends to pull away from the sheep, we try to get him back, the sheep scatter, he dashes after them. I definitly do not want to give up on him. All day today, every time he brings me a toy, and I take it and put it in the box, he gets a confused look on his face. And he has been rather mopey today. I wonder if he thinks he is being punished? He is such a great dog. I don't want to screw him up just because I want him to herd sheep! Y'all know what I mean? Right now I need anti-biotics and a sympathetic dentist! And stronger pain meds! I'm a sissy when it comes to pain in my mouth. Anywhere else no prob! Arghhhh......... PS He was NOT like this last week. Last week, we thought we had a great dog in the making! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Dogs can change a lot in first couple of years of training. Time will tell how Jackson will turn out. Keep at it and be patient. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy bob Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 If one of my girls is given any commands or corrections (even mild ones) she flies in and starts pulling wool. When we are down at the barn she will occaisionally slip off and the next thing I know she is quietly bringing me the sheep in a nice straight fetch. Just can't tell her how to do it. So she is my pet. I enjoy her the way she is. You better believe I spayed her. The other girl will have a bit of a pout but she gets over it. Her performance is very hot and cold. Sometimes she's great and sometimes she is not. If there are any puddles on a trial field just forget about straight lines.She will go out of her way to play in a puddle then come back to her sheep! I really lucked out with my boy though. He's everything I wanted and worth waiting for. Jackson is young. Don't pressure too much. Try a new environment and trainer. I know some one with a dog that did not turn on til it was older than Jackson and that was after she left the area and had to find a new instrutor. My point is they are all so different and if by chance he does not work out, so what, as long as he's happy. Your next pup will bring you so much excitement. Don't be discouraged. For people like us it really is just a game. Enjoy your dog. muddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted April 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Mark and Muddy, thanks so much for the encouragement! Yes, I will keep at it. I won't give up on him yet. I'm stubburn and hardheaded, so it will take a bit before I can say, that'll do Jackson, you herd balls from now on! Don't worry Muddy, he is such a great dog in all other ways, I love him so much! If it turns out he is not to run trials or even help out here, so be it. Maybe there is a damnation dog herding club,,,,he herded my son's damnantion real good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Dixie G, One thing to consider, rather than totally putting the balls away, is your relationship with Jackson and how you play with him. If he's bringing balls to you and demanding you throw them, then he's in charge of the game. You need to be in charge, even in ball games. My dogs do agility, play with tug toys, love to fetch, and love to work sheep. They know that I make the rules about all those things, and are willing to play "whatever game" to the fullest. They also know about structure, even though I'm a very "positive trainer", because positive is not "permissive". It may be that putting structure to Jackson's "sheep chasing" is what he is worried about, if all the other interaction/games with you have been on "his terms". If you only work him on sheep occasionally, he still needs other outlets for his energy. Just show him that you are the "Queen of the Toys" and he has to play by your rules, and play when and where you say play. Once you've established rules for other things in his life, he might have a new outlook on how to handle a bit of "structure" around the sheep, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Worst thing you can do is get anxious about him "working". Take him to sheep and other than mangling them- let him do whatever strikes him. Occasionally try and maipulate him-- back off if it turns him off. Be happy with whatever he does-- even if you have to fake it Don't pressure him to do anything. If theres nothing there at all-- just work another dog and let him join in when he feels like it. And the second he turns off take him out and make him just watch-- then let him come back in-- over and over-- Self frustration can be a useful tool to make him want to keep at it. I don't think taking the toys away is the answer-- but I do think the suggestion of structuring the play more could be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 I certainly would not give up on Jackson after only 3 lessons. I agree with the others to maybe try a different environment and trainer. If he was showing interest enough last week to make you feel so positive, then there is something there. My own dog used to leave his sheep if I applied too much pressure or if someone had made a funny noise somewhere. He would go to the gate and just quit. I tried dragging him back and I tried just leaving him and moving the sheep around myself. He was under 2 years at that time. He is now 6 and I don't have that problem anymore and haven't for quite a few years. He eventually matured and never leaves sheep no matter how much pressure is put on him or whatever noises bother him. Yesterday a rabbit popped up under his nose while moving sheep. He glanced at it running away but that was all, the sheep were his job and he knew it. Have patience with Jackson sometimes it just takes longer with some dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted April 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Laurie, that sounds good. I do that with his frizbee, it is only taken down when I want to play and he has to bring it where I want. And I decide when we quit. The other toys, including the balls, it's like, okay, Jackson brings the toy to someone, anyone, and we throw it. So, that could be a needed change. Thanks. Howdy, yeah, getting anxious is not good. And I think I was getting pretty anxious the other day. Joan, unfortunately, when I was looking for a closer trainer, I discovered that she is the only one right now. But I will take the encouragement and keep at it. I already told her I was by no means giving up! She is having a sheep trial there this weekend to benefit the family of Bonnie Berry I believe is her name. I am going and taking Jackson. Maybe he will learn something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 One last thing, dogs can have bad days too. One day they'll look great (a future trial winner) the very next day they may look like they won't ever progress and may even look like they took a step back in ability. Just learn to roll with their changes because the very next time you take them out they may look better than they ever have. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Mark: You are so right! I can't count the number of times I hear- so and so finally turned on, it was beautiful- we are getting somewhere,etc. I do think in general taking time and having the trainer dial back on requirements for young dogs, helps a lot. Many dogs prefer not to work with others, at first, and sometimes all the time I would echo what someone said about lessons, and then take them out so they can watch. I would also play with him, but you be in charge of the playing. He won't understand why you won't play, but if you teach him that the play is your idea, and not just when he wants to, that will make him a better companion too Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 This has been a good thread to read for any of us novices, and those that worry and get anxious. I know I needed it. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Sue R, I have days when I take Jody out and wonder why I took her out. I'll go in and Renee asks how things when and I tell her Jody worked like crap. The next day I can repeat it and Jody will look like a trial winner. Renee has the same thing with Bette; to her dismay the bad works have often come when she's trying to show off what Bette can do. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:Renee has the same thing with Bette; to her dismay the bad works have often come when she's trying to show off what Bette can do. Well, that's pretty typical, isn't it? I remember from my horse showing years the old chestnut, "bad practice, great show," and to this day I worry if my dogs work really well right before a trial. Of course that could be one of those self-fulfilling things, huh? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Mark - There are days at home when I am so pleased with Celt that I can hardly contain myself. Sure as shooting, if anyone's watching or if I'm anticipating some really good work, things go south in a hurry. If the camera's out to capture anything for posterity, it won't be worth capturing except for a self-deprecating laugh (or a good cry). You know that I am not even a good Novice handler but there is something that Celt does that pleases me every time I take him out, no matter how badly I do. I just need to remember that when I blow a run or the work doesn't go well. Thanks for the warning but I'll still take Bette off your hands, if you'd like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Thank you Mark, for what you said about Gyp. That is something I need to take into my attitude about June. She is what she is, and that's OK. She may never go past being a novice dog, but right now she's helping ME learn, and that's OK (because when she came to me she was turned off of sheep - at least she wants to work now). I've been mentally putting a lot of pressure on myself stressing about what she isn't... maybe I need to focus more on what she IS, and being OK with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 One day they'll look great (a future trial winner) the very next day they may look like they won't ever progress and may even look like they took a step back in ability.And this goes across the board into other things, too. I've experienced this with Speedy in Rally. At one trial he seemed to have forgotten "sit" - of all things! This after having earned two Rally titles. Go figure! Sometimes they do just have bad days and sometimes it just takes them time to get really into something that's new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted April 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Thanks y'all! You have helped me so much. I knew y'all would! It's not that I don't have faith in my trainer, she is Carol Anne, Hubert Baileys daughter. I know some of y'all might know her. And she didn't tell me to give up on him either. She just thought the toy thing might be the only "job" he wants to do. She said next week we were going to work in a smaller pen. Maybe that will help. I am going to try the toys when I want. And since they are already put up, it should be easier! He is so sad. And what can ya do otherwise? The stories were great too! I feel so much better now! And even tho I took my camera, I didn't take any pics! He was just so pitiful that day! So Sue, I totally understand what ya mean! Thanks again. As usual, y'all are great! Thanks for the info and encouragement! When Jackson wins his first open, y'all can say, yeah, I helped that dog get where he is! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted April 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Right after posting the last one, I took Jackson out for some frizbee. He is one happy dog! And I also noticed that he tried to make the decision of when I threw it again by not bringing it to me. I did not let him get by with that! So, I guess we both have some learning to do! Thanks again y'all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 It's funny- just last night I was playing frisbee with one of my girls, and at one point, as she was going for it ( I threw it) a neighbor drove by, and she "forgot" all about the frisbee, to "run" for the car- we are fenced in. That doesn't sit well with me, so I picked the frisbee up, and inside she went. I then brought my other dog out, who wouldn't think of blowing me off ;0) Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 I don't think that I have ever had a dog that at one point I didn't put up for a month or so in total disgust.The Worthless mutts. And thats even after they had the outrun lift and fetch down. Not all--- but most ended up being pretty darn good dogs. Thinking back I keep wondering if we didn't start "clicking" again BECAUSE I had given up on them and was just useing them for whatever help they could give me. I defeitly can say that getting frustrated and pushing for what I wanted didn't get me anywhere I wanted to be. Not saying I don't keep actively working on things--I just have a "oh well" attitude on the STOCK WORK seems to be working well. I also remember when I first started going places with my dog it would dissapoint me when things didn't go too well-- It was like I had to proove my dogs were perfect.. MISTAKE You can proove they are perfect years down the road when it really means something. Another reason why I think it is a mistake rushing into trialing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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