Look back and double lifts

[Debbie Meier]

The old Vicki dog presented me with something new the other day, I was using her to sort some sheep from our holding pens, there were sheep in pens on either side, some sheep she was working toward me and a group at the end of an alley that she would be able to gather and bring to me if I gave her a lookback command. I gave the Look back, expecting her to just go down the alley and get them, but instead she just stood there looking at them, so a repeated the command, rather then committing she quarter turned and looked at the set in the pen to the left, I repeated look back and she quartered again to the group we were sorting, it then dawned on me that she was not sure which sheep she was suppose to go and get, so I gave her two more look backs, one that indexed to another 1/4 turn to the set in the adjoining and the final indexing back to the set I wanted, this time I gave her an away to me and she was off after that set. She's not real familuar with the pen configuration so I doubt that she realized that she did not have access to the sheep on either side, the pens are all wire combo panels with some pens that we leave open so I could see where it could be confusing.

 

Anyway, this got me thinking about the double lift, after the dog has brought the first set of sheep to the right spot, what typically is the sequence of commands to get the dog to release and go outrun for the second set, my thought is that it would be a stop, a look back followed by a flank command to which ever direction that would not create a cross over. I had never thought about the dog indexing the sheep they were intending on engaging when you gave a look back command, but I could see it useful if there were other sheep visible so you knew for sure that the dog was going to outrun on the proper set.

 

Also, is what Vicki did normal under the condition of uncertainty? And how is that taught, or is it just something that a dog figures out and is willing to offer when they want to do the right thing?

 

Deb

[Sue R]

Celt has a great look back as we often need it with the cattle - sometimes some will be down by the spring or in another area separate from the cattle that he can see on the outrun. I will say, "look back", and he will turn to look, and then I will give him a flank command to send him in the direction I want, which is also a clue to him which animals he is to gather.

 

A good look back is not real useful on the trial field for a dog that hasn't made it past Novice, but it sure is helpful here at home (and occasionally in other settings, as it was last week at the clinic when a sheep split off to the set-out/exhaust area, where it was hard to see her in the shade).

 

I know that didn't address your questions but in trials that I have seen, the look back is always accompanied by a directional (away or come bye) command.

[Mark Billadeau]

It is my understanding that the mechanics of the look back are:

 

Flank the dog to the side of the first group of sheep that is the same side as the second outrun (right side of the first group if the second outrun is a right hand outrun).

Give the look back followed by the flank for the outrun.

 

Mark

[Debbie Meier]

It is my understanding that the mechanics of the look back are:

 

Flank the dog to the side of the first group of sheep that is the same side as the second outrun (right side of the first group if the second outrun is a right hand outrun).

Give the look back followed by the flank for the outrun.

 

Mark

 

Thanks Mark,

 

I thought about the point in which you stop the dog on the first sheep should be factored in to help get things set up right for when you give the look back and flank.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

How Mark described it is how I do it. The dog can't necessarily see the second set of sheep it's going back for. so flanking it to the proper side for the outrun allows you to reduce the risk of crossover when sending the dog back. In my case, I give the flank, generally stop the dog, give the look back followed by the flank. The most beautiful lookbacks to see are the ones where all of this is done in one fluid motion with the dog never stopping (swallowtail).

 

J.

[ItsADogsLyfe]

the way Mark describes is what I was taught and the way I use it. Although I have never been in a double lift finals I have practiced it a lot and my dog does a great look back. I was able to set and hold sheep when a really big hat was working with someone learning the look back. It really helped me when it came time for me to learn it. I also had a few talks with him about it and he told me the mechanics of it all. Plus watching tons of trials and trial videos helps also.

[Carson Crazies]

Ok, so since we're discussing dbl lifts - what determines which direction you send you dog on the second lift? AND, is there a pts deduction with regards to how many commands you give your dog on a look back? In other words, if you give a stop, a look back, and a flank command is that a deduction vs. a stop and a look back where the dog takes the correct flank without a flank command? Uh, not that there's any danger of us finding ourselves doing a double lift any time in the forseeable future.

[Mark Billadeau]

Outrun directions for each group of sheep are given at the handlers meeting (i.e. first group to the left, second group to the right) and there is an outrun to each side. I believe the dog always goes to the outside of the field for both outruns (left hand outrun to the group on the left side of the field).

 

This is from the judging guidelines.

 

Dog may receive one command for going back and one

directional command without penalty. Additional commands

should be penalized per command…

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

Ok, so since we're discussing dbl lifts - what determines which direction you send you dog on the second lift?

Simple answer: the second lift will be the opposite outrun from the first lift. You shouldn't send the dog in the same direction twice.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

Is there a points preference on the swallowtail lookback versus the lookback/stop/send?

 

I thought there was a point penalty for deliberately flanking the dog over on the first group to set up for the resend? The emphasis being on "deliberately"

 

I've only used the dl in a few trials, and mostly I'll have to say I just concentrated on getting it done completely. Not polished on it by far - more or less a trial verson of what we use at home as needed.

[Shoofly]

I thought there was a point penalty for deliberately flanking the dog over on the first group to set up for the resend? The emphasis being on "deliberately"

 

There certainly shouldn't be a penalty, unless that flank sends the first group offline.

[Lenajo]

I think...think there was a penalty at one of the judging seminars I attended in that past. And again, brain not working today pre-day off LOL, I think that it was also discussed in relavence to one years Bluegrass.

 

It would certainly be a good question for WBC...what do you think?

[Debbie Meier]

Ok, so since we're discussing dbl lifts - what determines which direction you send you dog on the second lift

 

I might be wrong but I think the answer to this lies in understanding when a dog is crossing the course and applies to other things also, not just the double lift, I'm thinking that you want to flank in a direction that would leave the path to the first group open to the sheep in the second group, (thinking here when the sheep can see what is going on, not on blind deals). Granted Mark mentioned that it is answered in the handlers meeting, but I always think about whether or not the path I sent my dog on crosses over the line I want the sheep to travel on.

 

 

 

Deb

[Shoofly]

I think...think there was a penalty at one of the judging seminars I attended in that past. And again, brain not working today pre-day off LOL, I think that it was also discussed in relavence to one years Bluegrass.

 

It would certainly be a good question for WBC...what do you think?

 

I think "There certainly shouldn't be a penalty, unless that flank sends the first group offline. " We don't ask judges to try to guess what a handler's intent is behind that flank. Perhaps the handler saw a ewe trying to bolt, perhaps she was just setting up the turnback. I don't want to have to guess intent.

[Debbie Meier]

There certainly shouldn't be a penalty, unless that flank sends the first group offline.

 

I could see having a dog that just automatically turns left or right when starting on his outrun could hurt you, vs. a dog that goes out looking for sheep and then kicks to the left or right depending on the command given. Thinking here of dogs that have "square flanks" that are not relative to the pressure of the stock....

 

Deb

[Lenajo]

oooooh, now my brain works. Thanks Debbie! The situation I was thinking of handlers were flanking the dog on the first group after they were already standing. The intent was to give the dog better visibility and less chance of crossover.

 

In the process though, the debate was if they crossed the course.

 

I guess the question is now, until the dog is sent - is crossing penalty possible? (i suppose anything is, but you know what I mean)

 

eta: How much "setting up" of the turnback is permissible then? If I'm still remembering right this was a Brit judge we were talking to, and he said the send back should be from the point of balance on the first group.

[Debbie Meier]

eta: How much "setting up" of the turnback is permissible then? If I'm still remembering right this was a Brit judge we were talking to, and he said the send back should be from the point of balance on the first group.

 

Sounds like that judge was not allowing any setting up of the turnback and was judging the dogs ability to release the first group without causing a disruption along with casting out for the second group without causing a disruption in the first group. No room for handlers to handle the dog through, the dog had to read pressure and properly adjust.

 

Deb

[Debbie Meier]

I guess the question is now, until the dog is sent - is crossing penalty possible? (i suppose anything is, but you know what I mean)

 

Personally, no judge here, but I would visualize it as if the dog was being sent from my side imagining that I am out there at the end of the fetch line where ever that would be depending on the requirements of the course, if the dog was standing way to my left and then I sent it to the right he would be crossing the course.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Personally, no judge here, but I would visualize it as if the dog was being sent from my side imagining that I am out there at the end of the fetch line which would be where the first set has been left, if the dog was standing way to my left and then I sent it to the right he would be crossing the course.

 

Deb

Then wouldn't that imply that you'd need to flank to dog to its left until it was on the right side of the new fetch line before sending it back for the second lot? If as Wendy says, the judge wanted the dog to turn back from his position behind the sheep on the fetch and the draws were such that the dog were off to your left, even by a hair to the other side of the fetch line, then the dog would cross its course when sent back from that position.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

not if the dog was sent to the outside I think...I think.... as in sent on an away for the right group, then on a cb for the left.

[Debbie Meier]

Then wouldn't that imply that you'd need to flank to dog to its left until it was on the right side of the new fetch line before sending it back for the second lot? If as Wendy says, the judge wanted the dog to turn back from his position behind the sheep on the fetch and the draws were such that the dog were off to your left, even by a hair to the other side of the fetch line, then the dog would cross its course when sent back from that position.

 

J.

 

I would send the dog on the comebye for the second group.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Okay, I get that. What you're saying is that even if you sent the dog CB for the first group, you would do the same for the second group so as not to have the dog cross the path the second group would take getting to the first group? I think ISDS rules require outruns to both sides for the double lift though (hence the discussion about flanking the dog around, etc.)....

 

Here's the applicable rule from the USBCHA bylaws:

SECTION 23: INTERNATIONAL GATHER (100 points)

The International gather or double lift competition requires a dog to be cast in a predetermined direction to gather the first lot of sheep. The sheep will be brought through the fetch gates to a post located approximately twenty (20) or more yards through the gates. The dog is to leave the sheep at the post and cast out in the opposite direction of the first outrun to gather the second lot [emphasis added] of sheep.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Okay, I get that. What you're saying is that even if you sent the dog CB for the first group, you would do the same for the second group so as not to have the dog cross the path the second group would take getting to the first group? I think ISDS rules require outruns to both sides for the double lift though (hence the discussion about flanking the dog around, etc.)....

 

Here's the applicable rule from the USBCHA bylaws:

J.

 

It makes it tricky if the judge indeed wanted the dog to cast from the balance point. Just a thought, the line of fetch does not come to the first group, the line goes from the second off through the fetch panels into space, so that would leave the dog an ability to leave from balance and flank off to the away to me direction without crossing over.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Just a thought, the line of fetch does not come to the first group, the line goes from the second off through the fetch panels into space, so that would leave the dog an ability to leave from balance and flank off to the away to me direction without crossing over.

 

Deb

Only if the dog was to the right of the new fetch line (line for the second set) to start with, and probably if the dog is on balance to sheep that are at a post directly in front of the middle of the fetch panels (at 12), then he's on the new fetch line to start, and if the balance point happens to be closer to, say, 11:45 than 12, then the dog is completely on the opposite side of the new fetch to start with. You'd have to flank the dog around lot 1, which he's still settling at the drop off post, in order to put him to the correct side of the second fetch line if you didn't want him to cross that second fetch on his outrun.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Only if the dog was to the right of the new fetch line (line for the second set) to start with, and probably if the dog is on balance to sheep that are at a post directly in front of the middle of the fetch panels (at 12), then he's on the new fetch line to start, and if the balance point happens to be closer to, say, 11:45 than 12, then the dog is completely on the opposite side of the new fetch to start with. You'd have to flank the dog around lot 1, which he's still settling at the drop off post, in order to put him to the correct side of the second fetch line if you didn't want him to cross that second fetch on his outrun.

 

J.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, the first set of sheep are fetched and brought through the fetch panels and then brought to a post twenty or more yards beyond the gates, which in theory would be closer to the handler then the fetch panel. So thinking geometricly, the line from the 2nd set to the drive panels should not even come close to the first set, the dog would have to have a huge flank to cross over that line, yes he may be crossing over the second line that the sheep would be put on to take them from the fetch panel line to the post he would be crossing over, but I thought the cross over was in regards to the next line not future lines, if it was in regards to future lines then your crossing over in other places to, like if you go around the pen it would be crossing the line going into the pen.

 

Deb