Surviving the over exuberant pup

[RoseAmy]

Any suggestions for dealing with the workaholic pup? She will be 9 months this week. I realize she is young but she is ready..she is just so highly reactive and excited..even off sheep she is alot of dog.

 

I try to pick and choose my battles with her..for instance getting her in the field (wears a line) is like dealing with the tasmania devil, the more I try to settle her the worse she got. if I let her go and get to the fence I do the exercise that Carol suggested. she calms right down and gets to work.

 

As long as we are "working" she is very biddable. Will stop has a nice walk up..shows a natural sense of pace. I can down her let the sheep drift by and send her on a nice little outrun.

 

As soon as I ask her to lie down with the intention of catching her all----all "*hxxxx" breaks lose.

 

Any tips anyone can share I would love to hear them.

[Debbie Meier]

She sounds like her mind is running 9-0, with mine away from sheep I try to make sure that I can keep their mind quiet and on a task required (staying with me without me holding them there with a leash, staying put on a lie down both in mind and body, making sure that they are staying aware of me even while playing). I guess I'm teaching self control and discipline so that when they go to sheep I have that already programmed in, granted it's a little tougher to get it sometimes on sheep but by requireing it away from sheep we have a foundation.

 

When I think of a dog with a quiet mind, I think of one whose mind is not all over the place triggering off of anything and everything. They have focus on both me and the sheep, when there are no sheep they are doing what they are suppose to but still aware of me. When a dog's mind is running 9-0 typically they can't stay focused on one thing, when away from sheep. When on sheep the sheep will keep their mind, but when you try to ask them to do something their mind goes running off again until the sheep draws it back.

 

Things I work on, when recalling make sure she stays committed to coming to you. When walking with you make sure she is committed to being with you and not trying to go off and do her own thing in mind or body, you don't want her to be with you via restraint only. Make sure when you do release her that she is going because you authorized it not because she found herself free to go.

 

When loose in the yard I watch to see if the pup is aware of me, if I shush or make a noise I want them to acknowledge me, if not I go and factor myself in rather then repeating myself. If I do it right, when I do call them they will come directly the first time. All of this I do away from sheep, if I don't have it away from sheep it will be hopeless on sheep especially with a driven dog.

 

I had to laugh at JJ yesterday, he is just a year old, he had the sheep held so I could sort a few off, I needed to move him over a bit to release the group, but, before I flanked him I wanted to be sure he was not stuck there. I just quietly called his name, even though he was focused and fixed he wagged his tail, I knew then that he would take his flank command and he did.

 

Deb

[RoseAmy]

Debbie the problem isn't with her off sheep. She recalls first time, stays with me off leash. Will down and stay at a distance. For her age and hyperness she's really a very good pup. She's just (and I hate to use the word) Super keen when it comes to sheep.

 

I'm looking for ideas to challenge her mind on sheep. Yesterday I put her on 20 ewes with lambs. My goodness did she slow down and think..you could see the wheels in her little mind churning after 10 minutes she was exhasted. But it was still a fight to get her off the sheep.

 

Once I get her on the sheep and settled she fine until it's time to come off the sheep.

[Debbie Meier]

I realize she is young but she is ready..she is just so highly reactive and excited..even off sheep she is alot of dog.

 

for instance getting her in the field (wears a line) is like dealing with the tasmania devil, the more I try to settle her the worse she got

 

As soon as I ask her to lie down with the intention of catching her all----all "*hxxxx" breaks lose.

 

The above quotes indicated a hole in off sheep work to me, but I may be misunderstanding you. I guess I would ask myself if when she is on sheep is she doing what I ask or is she just right about her work, which she sounds like she is right about the method of her work, but not really doing what you ask. For example calling off or waiting until you send her before going to work, which at this time is proably all that you can require until she is old enough to handle being held to her other commands.

 

With JJ, until recently I was labeling his directions and walk up , and being sure to set him up for success, he was not ready to be held accountable for obeying the verbal commands, but he was ready to be held accountable to the following:

 

1) Releasing the sheep at the end of work

 

2) Releasing enough to change requirements (an example would be when he is walking up and I put pressure on him, he should stop or flank, if he is flanking and I put pressure on him he should stop or line up to walk up), I really don't care what he changes to just that he is in the habit of changing when I apply pressure and that his work is fairly correct). My whole program was to make sure that when I put pressure on him (step into his path, quietly call him name) that he would give me one of the basic requirements that I expect, and ignoring me to continue what he was doing is not one of them.

 

3) Coming with me off the field

 

4) Going to the field with me and not working until I released him to work.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that is what I read as being the issue, the interval before you decide she should go to work and when you decide she should be done working. To me, that is off sheep work, it's between you and the dog, not between the dog and the sheep even though it may be in the field with the sheep.

 

It sounds like, if you have a great recall and she stays with you with any other distractions other then sheep, you just need to hold her accountable to those same requirements when the sheep are a distraction. Typically though, you can find distractions that are not sheep related that will cause a lapse in your recall or her attention to you, basically a failure in her following the requirement when she wants to do something that is more attractive then you, such as when in the presence of strangers or new dogs, something like that.

 

I guess I think that the biggest challange to the mind of a super keen pup, imo is learning to multi-task between you and the sheep, if they are keen and natural you just need to get them to be willing to decide that what you are requesting is what they really want to do most.

 

Maybe someone else with jump in with other ideas to challange her mind at this point.

 

Deb

[1sheepdoggal]

I have a young dog that doesnt like it when I call a work session quits. He tries to get around me and get back to the sheep, and then would only stop working when it was his idea and not mine. (by then he'd be exuasted and hanging his head, and plum tuckered out to where I could catch him) usually holding sheep in a corner or on the fence line. Im doing a couple of different things, aside from having him on a line, I just dont allow him to beat me back to sheep. I get right in between him and the sheep and stop him every which way he tries to go. He never gets his sheep, so he quits trying so hard. He still isnt a hundred percent willing to call off, but Im not running half as much to stop him either. He now will stand and allow me to take the line and we walk off. He is very keen too. If your dog cant get to the sheep, eventually, they figure its fruitless to keep trying, and thier brain starts to override thier instincts. Another thing I did was to teach him to get his head right before entering the field, I dont allow him to amp himself up just because he knows he is going to get some time on sheep. If he wanted to be a dork, Id just find a place to sit, and we sit. Once he relaxes, we can go to sheep. If when Id get up to go to sheep and he amped back up. We'd just sit a spell longer. He is starting to realize that its my game, and I let him play it with me. When Im done, it means "we're" done. If the dog gets away with beating you back to the sheep to many times, it will become harder and harder each time for you to convince them that its time to leave. They just know they have gotten away with it enough times to want to try harder the next time. So my advice would be just dont let her get back to the sheep. and put on your running shoes.

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

Any suggestions for dealing with the workaholic pup? She will be 9 months this week. I realize she is young but she is ready..she is just so highly reactive and excited..even off sheep she is alot of dog.

 

I try to pick and choose my battles with her..for instance getting her in the field (wears a line) is like dealing with the tasmania devil, the more I try to settle her the worse she got. if I let her go and get to the fence I do the exercise that Carol suggested. she calms right down and gets to work.

 

As long as we are "working" she is very biddable. Will stop has a nice walk up..shows a natural sense of pace. I can down her let the sheep drift by and send her on a nice little outrun.

 

As soon as I ask her to lie down with the intention of catching her all----all "*hxxxx" breaks lose.

 

Any tips anyone can share I would love to hear them.

You just answered your own question in the second to last sentence. "Intention of catching her". Teach her to "that'll do, here" and get her so that she will come to you all the time. Leave the long line on her and when you tell her to "that'll do, here" you reel her in and give her a good girl when she gets to you. Work on this until you have her under control. Back or run away from her with the long line in your hand encouraging her to come to you and praise when she gets there. There certainly is nothing wrong with her not wanting to quit but she will just get more fired as she is able to get away from you. Work on this and get it down pat and don't work with her off the long line until you have the recall on her. Every time she gets away on you, you are back to square one. Your long line should be at least 50 feet or more. Be consistent and persistent and firm but no anger. She is being trained to come to you and she doesn't know what it is yet. Corrections are only for trained dogs. Once you have this recall on her, your training sessions will be much more enjoyable.......Bob

[1sheepdoggal]

For getting him on the field in a workman like way, also I use a light line, that is hooked to the collar, but that is fashioned around his waist. If he pulls to run to sheep, he gets the line tightened around his waist. When he gives it slack and doesnt pull, it is a lot more comfortable. Just a couple of times he pulled on it and that was all it took. He still wears the line around his waist to enter the field, but I can open the gate and he doesnt bolt off. He makes the decision or corrects himself. All Im doing is holding 20 feet of rope. I dont do the correcting, he does.

[Smokjbc]

I don't know if someone mentioned this (at work, and just skimmed responses so far) but I agree with keeping the line on her. A long, very light line works best and trying to "get her" right when she takes off works too. But I've found the best way to get my dogs to "That'll do" is to make sure that most of the time, it's not to end the work session but to set up an outrun. Once they get pulled off and re-sent a few times using the same phrasing, I can get them to willingly and enthusiastically leave the sheep. Of course, with Her Jet-Ness, she caught on to me and started acting happy and innocent to "that'll do" up until we got to the gate, where she would wait till I was complacent and then take off for sheep again. But she did grow out of that badness.... I'll admit, she's been the hardest to get to cooperate with that, but it's something I am not complaining about VBG!

[RoseAmy]

Thanks everyone much food for thought. I do work her with a line. Pretty much been doing all the things suggested. I have to step on and grab the line when I call her off. the phase "catching her" was just kind of a joke..cause sometimes that's what I feel I'm doing. I have been calling her off and patting her and then putting her back to work.

 

Once I say lie down or that'll do I'm on that line but she just keeps trying anyway to get away.

 

It's that she's just super over keen that she really don't care what happens. I will try Dari's trick of around the waist and also maybe just taking her in with the sheep on a short lead and walking around and then coming out without working.

 

In thinking this over I think maybe i'm on the right track but I'm expecting her to give up trying after a few sessions. She's not that kind of dog. Very tuff and over confident.

 

On the flip side the first time I tell her that'll do and she comes to me I'll probabaly pass out..

 

Keep the suggestions coming..

[1sheepdoggal]

After almost a year of one of my dogs cheating me, it took me a good 6 months to get her to where she would stay with me and call off, and not take off after sheep before being sent. She is VERY keen. We spent a lot of time just walking around on the pasture with the sheep, some times just sitting there for a couple of hours. They gotta get the SHEEP! SHEEP! SHEEEEEP! out of thier head and calm down before they get to work, and if they dont, then, they dont get to work and we try again tomorrow. Just cause sheep are there doesnt mean they get to work them. I also thought Jamie's suggestion was good too, and reminded me that yes, that is a good thing to do as well. Good luck. A keen , fast, talented dog can be a frustration some times when they are so young, but a whole lotta fun too!

[bcnewe2]

I did what Jamie did. Used the that'll do for setting up outruns. THat worked till all she thought that'll do was always a new set up for something else.

Dew is biddable and doesn't like to make me mad. So it really was her brain getting away from her. Or being to "keen"

 

This is what worked for us on both getting in the gate and getting out. Getting in worked quicker than the getting out. but they boht took time and are great now.

SO....I'd put the long line on her, go though the gate, stepping on the line. Everytime I'd reach down to take it off she'd bolt off in a gather. Well, I changed the game, I started taking her in the gate and started driving right from there. So she didn't know if I was setting up for a drive or a flank, she HAD to listen to see which was coming. (She was able to drive and fetch pretty quickly, with fetch being her default mode)

Anyways....I'd do the gate thing with a walk up a few times, then I'd throw in a flank command but I'd start walking towards the sheep, maybe like an L shape so she thought I might be setting up a drive line or a fetch. Once I got her to listen so she'd figure out which I wanted, that was it. She doesn't take off for sheep anymore.

For the call off. She'd act so sweet...."yes mommy, I'm coming off sheep look how nicely" But as soon as I'd start to fiddle with the gate she'd sneak off back to sheep. So again I started going to the gate to set up a drive or a flank, I'd even open the gate then "change my mind" and send her either driving or flanking. So the gate didn't mean we were leaving. After confusing her enough that she was listening, the issues went away.

 

Maybe that's to confusing but it worked for us. I hate setting up patterns, like gate=fetch. opening gate after sheepwoek=no more sheep. As long as she needed to listen to me to find out what she was doing, her brain didn't fall out her hinney!

 

I love it when I have to fight a young dog off sheep or even fight to keep them with me getting to sheep. Means they like their job!

 

What I've seen JK do is take the dog in the round pen. That'll do the dog, if the dog went to sheep it got a pretty good correction, as soon as the dog made the decision to go with Jack the dog was praised with maybe a pat or just a "good lad", I've never seen him work more than a few sessioins and the dogs were coming off ok. I think the roundpen helped allot, not as much blocking or chasing.

 

I don't chase a dog...I block the sheep access. I've even taken the sheep though the gate and locked the dog in the gate. Didn't do much....