For Darci

[Guest carol campion]

Hello Mark,

If you saw my original post, then you saw that I had said the dog was almost 12 months old, and just starting his training. That I had been taking him to sheep anywhere from 2 to 4 times a month for the last 2 months. That he was keen to work, but still a bit immature, but that he was able to handle a little pressure. That he was learning where balance is, and learning his flank commands, but that I was just putting the words to them and he was still changing direction off my body. That he had a good stop on balance, but no off balance stop yet, and he had a walk up, but that Id felt that even though he was learning some valuable things, like learning how to walk on and off the field with me, and learning how to get his head right when presented with sheep, and before I sent him, and learning to actually wait to go to sheep until I did send him, that once I did send him, I felt we were starting to get stuck in a rut just circling and wearing and was afraid that one could do to much circling and wearing, and that even though he was still keen to stay on sheep and work, I had noticed that he was starting to read my body language and anticipate, more than listen to my voice, because we have done these same exercises so many times already. I had asked, because he is still a bit immature, (which I would hope translates as also less confident) if circling and wearing should stop, and go on to some thing else, and if so, was asking for suggestions as to what that some thing else could be, or, because he was young and immature, perhaps putting him up for a couple of more months might be a better plan. I dont know how I personally could have set the question up better, in my limited skills as a trainer and writer, but if it wasnt enough info for you to enter the discussion, my answer to your question would be to for you to ask me for more information.

 

Hi Darci

 

I didn't answer your post in the main section because I thought that maybe my answering would be overkill, seeing I post here. And since you didn't address it here, I figured you didn't need my input. But, I will go ahead and answer here in the hopes that you don't mind.

 

I think most of the "it depends" answers are right on. But you are looking for specifics.

 

I think specifics are hard to accurately give with so many questions, so I will share some basic insights based on how I look at things—and I see a lot of dogs.

 

When I am working with a youngster and feel I am in a rut because certain obstacles present themselves, I look at those obstacles as an indication as to what needs to be done next. They are an opportunity. The dog will often tell you what it needs to have addressed—the next step—what it needs to learn. If you feel like "Wow, my dog needs to stop doing X,Y,Z, but I can't because he can't do A, B, C, then the A,B, C, is what needs to be mastered. When you address the issue that you feel is a block and maybe the dog falls apart, then you might want to break down the task to smaller aspects of it or then choose to put him up for a while. I would certainly hit it head on first only putting him up once addressing the new challenge hasn't proved productive.

 

Each dog is different. I try not to compromise the quality of anything the dog has already mastered when trying to get some new phase of work, but with some dogs you have to. How much to compromise depends on the dog. Certain things I never compromise on—like stops. They are a huge part of the foundation for me.

 

If I remember correctly, the sire of your dog is soft. And was he is kind of a late maturer? And would quit if pressured too much? Look at the genetics of your dog to decide what to approach when. Some dogs require handling with kid gloves. But look at what he can't do as a signal for what needs to be done and set about attempting to master it. If he can't take those steps, you need to know. If he can, you will have gained knowledge as to when to push and when to pull and when to just sit back and let him glide for a while.

 

If your dog circles too much but still needs flanking to learn to give them room, teach him to stop where you ask so he won't over run. He may balk at the new idea on the first day or even lie there and stare at you, but be patient and persistent. Some dogs need to sleep on things like people do. I have had dogs that when working on flanking properly, will refuse to get up and flank at all because they can't do it their old way. I show them as best as I can and then we pack it up. Never fails that in a day or so, they are flanking beautifully. They need time. Others blast into the sheep whenever something new is added. Don't let these things stop you too soon. Give it all some time and experiment.

 

If you think you know what your dog needs and feel you don't have the skills in your bag of trick to show him, ask for help. Its all part of the learning process for you and him and it all will make you a topper of a dog trainer!

 

So you decide what you think is the key to your dog progressing and be persistent. Then you will have given him a chance. It may be that these times when you are stumped offer you your best dog training "ah'ha" moments.

 

Carol

[1sheepdoggal]

Hi Darci

 

I didn't answer your post in the main section because I thought that maybe my answering would be overkill, seeing I post here. And since you didn't address it here, I figured you didn't need my input. But, I will go ahead and answer here in the hopes that you don't mind.

 

I think most of the "it depends" answers are right on. But you are looking for specifics.

 

I think specifics are hard to accurately give with so many questions, so I will share some basic insights based on how I look at things—and I see a lot of dogs.

 

When I am working with a youngster and feel I am in a rut because certain obstacles present themselves, I look at those obstacles as an indication as to what needs to be done next. They are an opportunity. The dog will often tell you what it needs to have addressed—the next step—what it needs to learn. If you feel like "Wow, my dog needs to stop doing X,Y,Z, but I can't because he can't do A, B, C, then the A,B, C, is what needs to be mastered. When you address the issue that you feel is a block and maybe the dog falls apart, then you might want to break down the task to smaller aspects of it or then choose to put him up for a while. I would certainly hit it head on first only putting him up once addressing the new challenge hasn't proved productive.

 

Each dog is different. I try not to compromise the quality of anything the dog has already mastered when trying to get some new phase of work, but with some dogs you have to. How much to compromise depends on the dog. Certain things I never compromise on—like stops. They are a huge part of the foundation for me.

 

If I remember correctly, the sire of your dog is soft. And was he is kind of a late maturer? And would quit if pressured too much? Look at the genetics of your dog to decide what to approach when. Some dogs require handling with kid gloves. But look at what he can't do as a signal for what needs to be done and set about attempting to master it. If he can't take those steps, you need to know. If he can, you will have gained knowledge as to when to push and when to pull and when to just sit back and let him glide for a while.

 

If your dog circles too much but still needs flanking to learn to give them room, teach him to stop where you ask so he won't over run. He may balk at the new idea on the first day or even lie there and stare at you, but be patient and persistent. Some dogs need to sleep on things like people do. I have had dogs that when working on flanking properly, will refuse to get up and flank at all because they can't do it their old way. I show them as best as I can and then we pack it up. Never fails that in a day or so, they are flanking beautifully. They need time. Others blast into the sheep whenever something new is added. Don't let these things stop you too soon. Give it all some time and experiment.

 

If you think you know what your dog needs and feel you don't have the skills in your bag of trick to show him, ask for help. Its all part of the learning process for you and him and it all will make you a topper of a dog trainer!

 

So you decide what you think is the key to your dog progressing and be persistent. Then you will have given him a chance. It may be that these times when you are stumped offer you your best dog training "ah'ha" moments.

 

Carol

 

Hi Carol,

Mind? No, I dont mind at all, and in fact I honestly appreciate you taking the time to write this out for me. Not wanting or needing your input was not my reasoning nor intention for posting in the training section, more over it is the lack of training discussions that I miss reading, learning from and participating in that urged me to post there first. Admittedly, I reckon we need to keep you busier in this section as well.

We have exchanged enough info and have had talked enough that I would hope you know and undrstand that I highly respect your opinions and input.

This is a lot of good info for me to digest, and Im excited to get Hank out tomorrow and try some new things and see what he tells me he needs. I will stop back in after working him tomorrow night when I get back home and let you know what he tells us, and I'll just bet cha, he may even present me with a question or two for ya after all!

Thank you again, it was very thoughtful of you.

[1sheepdoggal]

Hi Carol,

Well, Boy Howdy were you spot on!

We really mixed it up for Hank today, and he not only showed me what he needed, (which was obviously no more mindless circling) but also showed me that he was capable of a lot more than I had suspected, much less expected. He was doing little outruns and a little driving, taking his flanks, stopping, and was even staying stopped until he was asked up. He had moments of lovely pace, was thinking and reading his sheep, getting to balance, it was lovely to see him enjoying himself instead of being bored. He was listening and responding very nicely. Overall, my biggest lesson for the day was; some times we dont always teach the dog, some times, the dog teaches us.

[Guest carol campion]

Hi Carol,

Well, Boy Howdy were you spot on!

We really mixed it up for Hank today, and he not only showed me what he needed, (which was obviously no more mindless circling) but also showed me that he was capable of a lot more than I had suspected, much less expected. He was doing little outruns and a little driving, taking his flanks, stopping, and was even staying stopped until he was asked up. He had moments of lovely pace, was thinking and reading his sheep, getting to balance, it was lovely to see him enjoying himself instead of being bored. He was listening and responding very nicely. Overall, my biggest lesson for the day was; some times we dont always teach the dog, some times, the dog teaches us.

 

Good news. Thanks for the feedback and have fun with him!

 

Carol