Is there a difference between a commercial breeder and a puppy mill?

[Tommy Coyote]

I think there is - or there definfitely can be. There is a huge fight going on about this on another board. This was all over Biden buying his German Shepherd puppy from a breeder who produces a lot of dogs each year. From what I read she takes good care of her dogs - she has 84 and produces about 200 puppies a year.

 

Commercial vs Puppy Mill?

 

To me a puppy mill is strictly a commercial operation - usually with dogs living in horrible conditions. The ones around me often have 100 to 400 animals all crammed into some little space. Conditions are awful. And their only concern is to produce puppies for sale at commercial markets.

 

Am I wrong?

[Smokjbc]

I think there is - or there definfitely can be. There is a huge fight going on about this on another board. This was all over Biden buying his German Shepherd puppy from a breeder who produces a lot of dogs each year. From what I read she takes good care of her dogs - she has 84 and produces about 200 puppies a year.

 

Commercial vs Puppy Mill?

 

To me a puppy mill is strictly a commercial operation - usually with dogs living in horrible conditions. The ones around me often have 100 to 400 animals all crammed into some little space. Conditions are awful. And their only concern is to produce puppies for sale at commercial markets.

 

Am I wrong?

 

I can't imagine any one person giving 84 dogs a quality life. I just can't. They might be cleaned, fed and have their veterinary needs attended too but obviously, with that quantity of dogs, their "purpose" is not work or companionship, but to produce puppies.

[Tommy Coyote]

I can't imagine any one person giving 84 dogs a quality life. I just can't. They might be cleaned, fed and have their veterinary needs attended too but obviously, with that quantity of dogs, their "purpose" is not work or companionship, but to produce puppies.

She probably doesn't do it all herself. Its her business. Many of the dogs have schutzhund titles. And I guess she even has two swimming pools for the dogs.

 

To me that isn't a puppy mill.

[bcnewe2]

To me that isn't a puppy mill.

What is it then?

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

I imagine that the definition of a "puppy mill" will vary from person to person, but I feel that any place that mass produces puppies for the purpose of making money is a puppy mill.

 

Dictionary.com seems to agree:

Main Entry: puppy farm

Part of Speech: n

Definition: a place where puppies are bred for profit; also called a puppy mill

 

To me, the conditions that the dogs and puppies live in are not a consideration. There are very nice puppy mills and there are horrid puppy mills, but if the goal is to generate income, they are all puppy mills.

 

Regards,

nancy

[sea4th]

I don't think there is much difference between the two. There are really state of the art breeding facilities which are puppy mills out there, cranking out pups in conditions that would put the average dog owner to shame. It doesn't necessarily have to be crammed and filthy to be a mill. The bottom line for both terms is profit, and that comes from producing pups, no matter what the living conditions are they come from.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>she has 84 and produces about 200 puppies a year.<<

 

I couldn't find a price but it seem like the goint rate for GSD is about $1500.

 

200 x 1500 = $300,000 a year

 

BUT WAIT...here is a newspaper article on the place where he got the pup.

 

Biden puppy breeder cited again

The operator of the Chester County kennel where Vice President Joe Biden purchased a German Shepherd puppy last month has been cited again for failing to keep proper records and for poor maintenance and drainage.

 

A Department of Agriculture spokesman said yesterday that Linda Brown was initially warned about the problems in a Jan. 5 inspection, but when investigators returned to Wolf Den kennel in Spring City last week they found conditions had not improved and sales and health records were incomplete.

 

The Bureau of Dog Law Enforcement issued her three new citations for violations to the state dog law, one each for records, drainage and maintenance. That's in addition to the two citations issued in December - the same week that Biden purchased the six-week-old puppy.

 

"If it's a first time offense, a warning is issued," said department spokesman Chris Ryder. "If on a follow up inspection it's not corrected, it can lead to a citation."

 

In a Jan. 5 inspection report posted on the Department of Agriculture Web site, Brown was warned about “an accumulation of food and hair” outside the kennels located inside her house.

 

The inspection report indicates that Brown had corrected all the prior problems, but a follow-up inspection on Jan. 22 found paperwork was incomplete, Ryder said.

 

Brown, who also operates as JoLindy's German Shepherds, currently has 95 dogs on the property (up from 88 last month) and reported 188 dogs sold in the past 12 months, according to the inspection report. She holds the largest state commercial kennel license that allows her to keep or sell an unlimited number of dogs.

 

The two citations issued in December were filed in Chester County district court on Jan. 20 and the case is pending, according to court records.

 

Adoption advocates nationwide criticized Biden’s decision to purchase a dog at a time when millions of unwanted dogs are euthanized in shelters each year. Biden later announced his intention to adopt a second dog from a shelter.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/pets/Bi...ited_again.html

[juliepoudrier]

I imagine that the definition of a "puppy mill" will vary from person to person, but I feel that any place that mass produces puppies for the purpose of making money is a puppy mill. <snip>To me, the conditions that the dogs and puppies live in are not a consideration. There are very nice puppy mills and there are horrid puppy mills, but if the goal is to generate income, they are all puppy mills.

I agree 100 percent with Nancy. I consider anyone who produces scads of puppies every year to be a mill. Some are better than others, but hundreds of puppies = mill in my opinion.

 

J.

[theshine]

Ugh, someone on an all breed board got in a snit with me recently because I called a similar breeder a "commercial breeder"...it may even have been the same breeder, a gsd breeder with something like 80 dogs. The person that took issue with me wasn't even arguing that this was a puppy mill, if that were the case I would have agreed and shrugged it off as semantics, but they were arguing that this was a responsible breeder because they had titled dogs and were cared for by a staff. I take issue with breeder that has that many dogs, and having a staff to care for them makes it no better imo. But yeah, I think "commercial breeder" and "puppymill" have slightly different connotations, with "puppymill" being worse sounding...in the end they do the same thing though, which is churn out puppies. I'd probably break it down like this...all puppymills are commercial breeders, but not all commercial breeders are puppymills...and neither is a responsible place to get a dog.

[1sheepdoggal]

Breeding dogs, should be for the betterment of the breed, not to the detriment. Especially in the case of working dogs. Do you think the person putting that many pups on the ground a year is working to better the breed? IMO. Puppy Miller.

[Tommy Coyote]

If that breeder is really trying to produce good dogs and is active with her dogs does that make it different. I could see where a breeder like that might not ever sell to pet stores or other commercial-like avenues but produces GSD for guard work - maybe even trains the dogs at the kennel. Or police dogs. That kind of thing. Or a breeder that does good hunting dogs of different kinds.

 

That just doesn't fit my definition of a puppy mill.

 

Maybe I'm just wrong here.

[herdcentral]

My thoughts are that if the breeder is not breeding for the betterment of the breed they are a puppy mill. Betterment means proving the dogs for what they are meant for, health testing and carefully selecting matings. The puppies need to be handled and socialised and kept till 8 weeks old. Potential buyers should be screened and the breeder should never allow one of their dogs to end in rescue. Pups should be sold on spay neuter contracts unless negotiated otherwise with the breeder.

 

I am maybe being cynical here, but it takes a lot of work and committement to do the above, with so many dogs produced one has to wonder.

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

If that breeder is really trying to produce good dogs and is active with her dogs does that make it different. I could see where a breeder like that might not ever sell to pet stores or other commercial-like avenues but produces GSD for guard work - maybe even trains the dogs at the kennel. Or police dogs. That kind of thing. Or a breeder that does good hunting dogs of different kinds.

 

That just doesn't fit my definition of a puppy mill.

 

Maybe I'm just wrong here.

 

As I wrote in my earlier post to this thread, the definition of a "puppy mill" will vary from person to person. People will base their opinion on their personal values and beliefs, and those will certainly not be the same for everyone. So, "Tommy coyote", you are not wrong, you just have a different opinion.

 

However, by my standards, the mass production of puppies is purely a commercial venture, and I simply abhor the practice of making a profit by breeding dogs. Also, I feel that if the operator is involved in a valid "dog sport", it is usually for the purpose of increasing the "value" (and price) of the pups they produce.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[Jumpin Boots]

To me, the only difference between the two is the legality of the situation. A 'puppymill' is illegal, where a 'commercial breeder' is legal. The whole thought that a 'commercial breeder' can get a license to produce and own as many dogs as they wish is sick. To get a license they should first have their property completely designed and a plan for caring for the animals, then an inspector should come out and tell them how many animals they are allowed. Period. If they go over that number or are not caring for the animals as they stated they should lose them, no warnings, poof, they're gone. It's like a maximum occupancy rule at a business, either you are under or over the number.

[Maralynn]

If that breeder is really trying to produce good dogs and is active with her dogs does that make it different. I could see where a breeder like that might not ever sell to pet stores or other commercial-like avenues but produces GSD for guard work - maybe even trains the dogs at the kennel. Or police dogs. That kind of thing. Or a breeder that does good hunting dogs of different kinds.

 

That just doesn't fit my definition of a puppy mill.

 

Maybe I'm just wrong here.

 

How do you successfully evaluate, train, show, manage and breed 88 dogs?? One person can't do that, heck half a dozen people can't even do it effectively. And what kind of titles are these dogs getting? Schutzhund has many titles from basic to advanced. Just because a dog has a basic schutzhund title does not mean it is of breeding quality.

 

This person is selling a pup/dog every 2 days, it is a commercial venture and she is in it to make money first and foremost. She is not breeding to produce quality working dogs.

[Gary M]

It seems the ACK and authorities do not think she is taking the best of care of her puppy mill.

 

LINK

[Tommy Coyote]

It seems the ACK and authorities do not think she is taking the best of care of her puppy mill.

 

LINK

Doesn't look good, does it? That place sounds awful. I wonder why Biden went there? Someone must have told him it was OK.

[Sue R]

Who are you going to believe, the inspectors who cited caked dog food and dog hair in the dogs' area, or the breeder who said it was one piece of kibble and five dog hairs outside the dogs' area? This doesn't sound like a simple difference of opinion to me but a world of difference instead.

[Tea]

Just as a side thought,

 

Our Wildlife project is USDA for big predators. In my experience if you are trying the USDA inspectors are pretty lenient.

[Maralynn]

Doesn't look good, does it? That place sounds awful. I wonder why Biden went there? Someone must have told him it was OK.

 

Maybe he was duped? Maybe he (like a great many other people) wanted instant gratification and is a bit clueless about well-bred dogs and good breeders? And the breeder wanted the name recognition. JMO, but I can't imagine a breeder of quailty GSDs selling a pup to someone who has just been elected to one of the worlds more demanding jobs. Like BCs, they're not a dog for casual pet owners.

[juliepoudrier]

How do you successfully evaluate, train, show, manage and breed 88 dogs?? One person can't do that, heck half a dozen people can't even do it effectively.

Exactly. I have *five* dogs I'm trialing right now, and that's put me pretty much at my limit, training time and moneywise. Granted if you're selling a gazillion pups maybe you're making enough money to pay people to train and put titles on your dogs, but I still don't think you can effectively evaluate the results of your breeding program. Of all those puppies that are being produced, I wonder how many go on to be trained in, say, Schutzhund and gain titles (at something other than the most basic level)? If it's not very many then how can the breeder tell that her breeding program is producing what she thinks it should? This is the same argument I have used for border collies. If you are putting a hundred pups on the ground each year and aren't selling a majority of those into working homes where they are being proven for the work you're supposedly breeding for, then there's no way you can prove to yourself or anyone else that your breeding program is actually creating dogs that actually are an improvement on the previous generation.

 

J.

[Tommy Coyote]

Maybe he was duped? Maybe he (like a great many other people) wanted instant gratification and is a bit clueless about well-bred dogs and good breeders? And the breeder wanted the name recognition. JMO, but I can't imagine a breeder of quailty GSDs selling a pup to someone who has just been elected to one of the worlds more demanding jobs. Like BCs, they're not a dog for casual pet owners.

I read that the Bidens have had GSD before so they know what they were getting. But he's the VP you would think someone would have given him a head's up.

[Eileen Stein]

1. As regards the "puppy mill" definition: I agree that the term means different things to different people, and there is no standard, accepted definition. But a "mill" is a factory. Therefore, a puppy mill is a factory that produces puppies. To me, the key defining concepts would be mass production and economic motive (profit). So I would say there could be clean, comfortable, well-designed puppy mills (a tiny minority), and there could be filthy, cramped, disgusting puppy mills (the great majority), and a wide range of puppy mills in between. Don't know where this one falls on the spectrum, but IMO it certainly qualifies as a puppy mill.

 

2. As regards why the Bidens chose this source for their pup, I think it's sometimes hard for us to imagine how little thought the general public puts into the issues that are constant concerns for the people on these Boards. And I think the Bidens are in the "general public" category, rather than in the "dog people" category. They wanted a German Shepherd puppy, so they looked for a breeder who sells German Shepherd puppies, and they came across this one, who produces and sells a lot so she must know what she's doing. End of story.

[Debbie Meier]

Just to add a dynamic, with this German Shephard breeder, is this breeder maintaining a large kennel because she can afford to and by maintaining the high numbers she can increase the chances of getting the next top dog? Sorta like what the Babcock's and Carol Rose's of the world do in the cutting/reining horse industry. When we went down to Texas a number of years ago there were pastures of colts, not just 3 or 4, more like 30 or 40 colts in a pasture maybe more, all looked a like, all being raised in an attempt to find that next great prospect. They sold their culls at sale or by private sale, and were able to get better prices due to the results produced by breeding programs, they were always able to have a horse at the top due to the high volume of prospects they were producing. When ever I look at the stallion prodgeny performance production reports in the QH Journal I like to look at the ratios, yeah one horse might be at the top of the production report but how many colts did he sire to get there, as opposed the sire that might be number 10 with only a handful of get compared to the top horse. To go on to the training, we went to visit Bill Freeman, aisles and aisles of 2 and 3 years olds in stalls, he had multiple traininers working under him, all those young colts in training and being weeded out in hopes of finding one or two that can run the futurity circuit and to be the next great cutting/reining horse sire.

 

So, is it a mill? Yeah the pups/horses are being sold, the profit involved might be in question depending on the expense to maintain such a facility. The pet quality are a by-product of the breeding program, the program may be there to develop the best of the best by one standard or another. If you don't agree with the standard they are producing you might consider it a mill, if you do agree with the standard they are producing you might consider them advancing the breed.

 

I tend to consider mills breeders to be the ones that just breed two of a breed together to produce more of that breed with the sole intention to make profit (the designer ones are crossing different breeds). They don't care about anything other then demand for the pups they are producing, when demand goes down they switch to something that has more demand. To me the number of dogs they have does not matter. Our neighbor only has a few breeding pairs, I think has some goldens and labs and a breeding pair of BC's, he is not breeding the BC's right now because he can't sell the pups for the price he wants. Even though he has a small kennel to me he is a mill, it's not about quality it's about revenue.

 

I guess some people operate on a small scale while others a monsterous scale, I tend to consider the true intention before making judgement, though without knowing the breeder personally it is hard to know their true intention, I guess I tend to hesitate to jump and apply labels.

 

Deb

[Eileen Stein]

Debbie, if she were breeding to "develop the best of the best by one standard or another," I would expect there to be some mention on her website of the accomplishments of dogs she has bred. From what I could see, the only titles or accomplishments mentioned were those of the parents of stud dogs she has imported or bought in. No indication that she trials or shows her dogs, or that the puppies she produces are trialed or shown. The only suggestion of any aims she might have in breeding is the kind of bland, generic statement typically found on puppy mill sites: "Large boned, healthy puppies will make excellent family companions, perfect for obedience, tracking, search and rescue, agility and home security."