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Training goals and timelines


Ooky
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I think the OP certainly has gotten a lot to think about. And I think that many of us were essentially saying the same thing, just in different ways. Isn't that what discussions are supposed to be? It seems that many of these discussions end up with someone feeling defensive or someone else feeling like they have to come to the defense, when in fact no one was attacking anyone in the first place. I think that's the very basic reason many people don't post to the training discussions. Lana said her piece about how she trains and what she expects. Others did the same. Hopefully the OP and any lurkers learned that people take different approaches, and that individual approaches evolve over time. How that turned into "We must defend one of our own" I'll never know. But those kinds of responses are the ones that really squelch discussion IMO.

 

J.

 

What I think is different is the methods that each of us use to get to the end result, I think the reason we want to fight for the method that we each use is due to in part to the belief that the other methods have fault, it might be why we have choosen one method over another, we just didn't get it or apply it right. Understanding that the method used was not at fault but the person applying the method makes you realize that there is no one perfect method.

 

I think when there are disagreements, the root of the disagreement is based in results seen good or bad. Julie, you mentioned about the dog that was downed around stock to a fault. I really did not look at that as a problem, I just would have driven the dog away from my feet toward the stock until he/she figured out to engage the sheep accepting any engagement to start with or even just accepting that the dog was away from my feet, to me the dog was just trying to be right. Someone else may have a different method to get the dog to work. To each is own, use what works for you but having a concenses of what is correct or incorrect is important.

 

There is some varience as to what is acceptable treatment of the sheep on first expirences, that has nothing to do with method, that's more of an individual moral stand.

 

Deb

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I think when there are disagreements, the root of the disagreement is based in results seen good or bad. Julie, you mentioned about the dog that was downed around stock to a fault. I really did not look at that as a problem, I just would have driven the dog away from my feet toward the stock until he/she figured out to engage the sheep accepting any engagement to start with or even just accepting that the dog was away from my feet, to me the dog was just trying to be right. Someone else may have a different method to get the dog to work. To each is own, use what works for you but having a concenses of what is correct or incorrect is important.

 

Debbie,

The reason the dog who was downed to a fault was a problem was simply because it took me longer to undo what was done in the mistaken idea that a down *on stock* was a must before any other work could take place than it would have had the dog been left alone and allowed to work from the start and taught to stop as part of that work. This dog did have a down off stock, but here was an example of someone taking a statement "the dog should have a down" and misusing it to the point of shutting down the natural instinct in the dog. I did get the dog going around stock pretty much as you described, but IMO, knowing the breeding on the dog and other pups from that litter, I shouldn't have had to spend that time teaching the dog it was okay to go to the stock. It was just an example of the extreme some "trainers" will take an innocent statement to.

 

All along I have said that I expect to be able to stop a youngster (and call it off) on stock. As others have pointed out, sometimes when more experienced people make statements ("dog must have a down") a more novice person might interpret that in a way that is detrimental to the training of the dog. I used the dog above as an example of that very thing. That's not the same as saying that to expect a stop/down from a youngster on stock is wrong. I just personally don't feel that it's the thing I need to concentrate on first and foremost. Obviously all of us are managing to stop our youngsters and call them off stock somehow (otherwise we'd still be out in the field chasing them and not here posting to this forum).

 

I don't understand your comment about having a consensus of what works or doesn't. I thought we just got done saying in this thread that every person has a different approach (sometimes slightly different, sometimes radically so). I know well-known trainers who don't put much in the way of obedience training on a pup before it ever goes to stock, and I know others who quite enjoy teaching their youngsters all sorts of stuff off stock. I don't think the different approaches are right or wrong. In truth, the end result--a well-trained, thinking, useful stockdog--is what is important. (Caveat: I'd never approve of abusive methods to get to that end. Just saying.)

 

J.

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I don't understand your comment about having a consensus of what works or doesn't. I thought we just got done saying in this thread that every person has a different approach (sometimes slightly different, sometimes radically so). I know well-known trainers who don't put much in the way of obedience training on a pup before it ever goes to stock, and I know others who quite enjoy teaching their youngsters all sorts of stuff off stock. I don't think the different approaches are right or wrong. In truth, the end result--a well-trained, thinking, useful stockdog--is what is important. (Caveat: I'd never approve of abusive methods to get to that end. Just saying.)

 

J.

 

I didn't say that we have a consensus of what works or doesn't I said "To each is own, use what works for you but having a concenses of what is correct or incorrect is important." Different methods or approaches will lead us to the same place if we agree as to what is correct or incorrect in regards to the end product or what we are trying to accomplish.

 

As others have pointed out, sometimes when more experienced people make statements ("dog must have a down") a more novice person might interpret that in a way that is detrimental to the training of the dog. I used the dog above as an example of that very thing. That's not the same as saying that to expect a stop/down from a youngster on stock is wrong

 

You may not have meant it, but it sounded like you were using this extreame example to justify the stand of not putting a down on the dog.

 

You may see a fault in the method of requireing a down in that people take it to the extreame of the dog thinking that it's not suppose to get up around stock, I see a fault in the method of not requiring a stop (which some automatically consider a down) that people take it to the extream of letting their dogs think that they should never stop when they are out with sheep.

 

All along I have said that I expect to be able to stop a youngster (and call it off) on stock. As others have pointed out, sometimes when more experienced people make statements ("dog must have a down") a more novice person might interpret that in a way that is detrimental to the training of the dog.

 

But that is not the statement you posted back a bit:

Put me in the category of those who don't require a stop/lie down on a dog when it's first going to stock.
I know you went into talking about obedience stuff before going to stock, but that first statement reads volumes to novices too.

 

I'm glad that we are all in agreement that a dog needs to have a stop of one sort or another when you take it to stock. Or, am I mistaken in that statement?

 

Deb

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I think there is a difference implied between "having a stop/down" on a dog before taking it to stock and "being able to stop/call off" a youngster. To me, "having a stop/down" implies that the handler can say the command and have the dog respond with the down or stop. Being "able to stop/call off" implies the ability for the handler to get the dog in a position of balance and control it enough (body pressure, movement) to have it stop and respond to being called off. Kind of like the difference between the dog being able to respond to the command versus the handler being able to utilize balance and body placement resulting in a stop or call off.

 

Am I just babbling again?

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No Sue, you're not babbling. That's exactly what I've been trying to say, and apparently not succeeding.

 

Debbie,

I think Sue said what I've been trying to say. I guess your "stop of one sort or another" would apply to what she said as well. I can stop a youngster, using body pressure, as Sue noted, but I don't call that "having a stop" per se. And I don't equate a stop with a down. I don't expect a down when a youngster is one sheep the first few times. I expect to be able to *get* a stop (which is not the same as saying "if I say "stop" the dog will stop). The two are not the same. And so when I said I don't require a stop/down on a dog, I meant I don't require the dog to respond to a verbal stop/down command. I will use my presence and the sheep to encourage the pup to stop when asked. When I decide to put an actual down (on stock) on a youngster depends entirely on that youngster. But all of my youngsters know what lie down means before ever going to stock. I just don't require a lie down on stock until I think the dog is ready for that (and in hindsight I can say that I should never have allowed my clappy dog to lie down, period; I'm having to fix that now). Instead I use body pressure to stop the dog on balance and then walk through the sheep and call the dog off. I don't think I can say it any more clearly than that.

 

J.

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You may not have meant it, but it sounded like you were using this extreame example to justify the stand of not putting a down on the dog.

 

It actually wasn't an extreme example. I see several dogs a month who have this same problem - primarily dogs of novice handlers who were told (or read) that they "must have a down" before the dog can be trained on stock.

 

While it seems simple enough to fix, its just like that first trick you taught your dog that he does everytime you try to teach him a new trick. It's a default...the first thing in that's dogs head as "a good idea" because it worked in the past when they don't understand what you want later.

 

It's just like first impressions with anything else.

 

I'd rather have a dog that wasn't even leash broke to start on stock than a dog that was taught an unquestioning down. (now seriously I don't want the former either, but I'm making a clear example here based on my own experiences)

 

Nobody has disputed that a stop command is necessary skill to have on a trained dog. Nobody, contrary to her beliefs, has set out to insult Lara or tell her how to train her dogs. We are simply discussing why we each do what we do with starting pups and novice dogs. If that changes any of our personal ideas as a result then fine. If not, that's fine too.

 

It's a conversation people, not a sentencing in a court of law.

 

Amelia started all this by stating a down was essential to start a dog. I say it's not an absolute, and it can be a very poor choice if the handler is any way prone to use it as a crutch. Which...most humans are, especially those of us who aren't perhaps the most natural of stock handlers. I think it can hurt some dogs learning the skills they need to cover and control stock well - perhaps just delay it, or in some cases permamently cause issues.

 

Others agree and disagree. Really, that is normal people. We could do this fine at a trial talking face to face I'm sure. One would hope anyway :rolleyes:

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A variety of opinions/experiences/recommendations, plus discussion that was way over my head, WAS what I hoped to get. And I got. :rolleyes: Again, thanks all - please keep sharing.

 

As for not having an unquestioning down or anything else, I guess I am a little proud of him - well a lot - for the grit and interest he showed. Here was a dog not used to, well, any of it.

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A variety of opinions/experiences/recommendations, plus discussion that was way over my head, WAS what I hoped to get. And I got. :D Again, thanks all - please keep sharing.

 

As for not having an unquestioning down or anything else, I guess I am a little proud of him - well a lot - for the grit and interest he showed. Here was a dog not used to, well, any of it.

 

You should be very proud of him, it's fun to catch the bug. For me it's even funner to problem solve my way through the training, trying to keep my mind a step or two ahead of my dog, you get this, let's try this...no that didn't give me what I thought....Let's adjust a little....Lookat what my dog did...CCCCOOOOLLLLL. :rolleyes:

 

Deb

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  • 4 months later...
I'm starting Odin tomorrow - well actually someone else much more knowledgeable is starting him, but you get the idea. There is a clinic in August I've been invited to that I found out will only be in the field, no round pen. What are the chances Odin and I could even possibly be ready to attend such a clinic? Again I realize that it would totally depend on talent, etc., but what caliber of dog would you need, and what caliber of handler, to get to that level that fast? What amount of (frequency of) practice? What would be the potential drawbacks or benefits to pushing towards something specific like that?

 

Despite my pathetic frequency of practice over this time - 5 times on sheep for Odin, me handling him twice, we are out of the round pen, and with an experienced dog/handler team for back-up I know he's ready for the field (hope I am). The clinic this post (in april) was about is this weekend and we leave tomorrow. :D

 

I credit this all to Odin and the various trainers we've worked with (I keep trying out all different sorts trying to learn more). Because I'm here to tell you it definitely wasn't *me* who got us here. :D He's probably not any sort of amazing dog in the scheme of things, but he's sure good enough for me. He's still very upright, but he is very serious and he covers the sheep really nicely, even when I really mess up, and has a reliable down for me.

 

I, on the other hand, found myself calling wrong flanks again, letting the sheep get past me, then correcting him for wanting to round me when I let them get lost and collect them again :rolleyes: Also I fell down spectacularly while running backwards as fast as I could and almost was trampled by sheep, but the sheep were very nice and went out of their way to not kill me (I really like these sheep). But the best part of that was that when I got up and dusted myself off, I realized there was Odin, at full standing stop (automatic, certainly not commanded), holding the sheep on the fence close by. I pulled back, asked for a flank, which I had to encourage him on more than normal, because he was a bit shaken about my sudden Chevy Chase-as-Gerald Ford impression. But then he peeled them off the fence so neat and we were off again.

 

Anyway, wish me luck to NOT break a leg this weekend, and definitely not ruin my good good dog any more than necessary. He's saddled with me but somehow he still seems so happy tonight!

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:D What a great update! Isn't it the best??? As for doing your Chevy Chase...been there, done that. At least twice. :rolleyes: Fun times! I bet you'll have a blast at the clinic this weekend. Have fun and we expect a full report when you get back.
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Hi ooky:

 

We are near the same point in training as you and Odin- we are out of the round pen and in the big field. Although I can't contribute anything to this thread about training, I will say that we went to our first clinic over the summer, and it was the most incredible experience! If you are anything like me, you will be completely amazed at what you get out of it. I was nervous, too; but the experience really solidified my desire to learn as much as I can and do this well.

 

Best of luck- I hope that you have a great time!

 

Karrin

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I know some people that call themselves clinic whores. Not me, though I don't mind auditing. I have worked 2 dogs in 2 clinics in 7 years. Both times I was disappointed and both clinics were with very well respected handlers. First clinic the handler wanted to take my soft dog out behind the shed and beat him. Honest, that is what he said. He took a lunge whip to my dog and my dog grabbed the end of the whip. This is my now 9 yr. old open dog who would stand on his head for me if I asked. He was 2 yrs. old at the time. Second clinic, the clinician thought he knew my dog in a few seconds. Now mind you he was a big hat, but how do you know a dog in a matter of a few seconds. Plus, this clinician kicked some of the novice dogs in the side that didn't respond to him. It sickened me.

Possibly just bad experiences, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I spend a lot of hours working my dogs and trying to team up with them. I certainly don't want it "undone" because some clinician is having a bad day or whatever the excuse may be. Just food for thought.

If you have a soft dog, I'd be leary of rushing to make a clinic deadline until you get some experience under your belt. Go ahead and audit the clinic. You will probably learn more that way. I think some people go to work in clinics to hear how nice there dog is or to show the dog off. I personally think clinics are good for handlers who have a problem that they can't solve on their own. But, I believe the dog should have some form of a stop and be able to work with another person in the picture.

Sorry if that sounded like sour grapes, but I think my dogs set their own timelines. Each one works differently and learns in a different timeframe than the other one. Enjoy the journey. Go audit the clinic instead of trying to rush to be ready...ready for what? Without a dog in the picture you can really concentrate. :0)

P.S. I'm going to my 3rd clinic this fall. I took a working spot, but not with my novice ranch dog. I don't want to pressure her. I am working in the clinic with my upcoming open dog. I know exactly what I'd like to work on.

Suzanne

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I know some people that call themselves clinic whores. Not me, though I don't mind auditing. I have worked 2 dogs in 2 clinics in 7 years. Both times I was disappointed and both clinics were with very well respected handlers. First clinic the handler wanted to take my soft dog out behind the shed and beat him. Honest, that is what he said. He took a lunge whip to my dog and my dog grabbed the end of the whip. This is my now 9 yr. old open dog who would stand on his head for me if I asked. He was 2 yrs. old at the time. Second clinic, the clinician thought he knew my dog in a few seconds. Now mind you he was a big hat, but how do you know a dog in a matter of a few seconds. Plus, this clinician kicked some of the novice dogs in the side that didn't respond to him. It sickened me.

Possibly just bad experiences, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I spend a lot of hours working my dogs and trying to team up with them. I certainly don't want it "undone" because some clinician is having a bad day or whatever the excuse may be. Just food for thought.

 

I'm sorry you had that experience- although I just had to pipe up and say I've been to several clinics and never witnessed anything close to what you are describing. That includes the clinics I went to with people I know did that kind of thing at home. I did have an issue with one clinician, but it had more to do with continuing to harshly, although not abusively, correct my dog after she was trying to give to him. Plus he made fun of me in front of a crowd :D. That person went on to do nothing much with his sheepdog career, although I do see him judging arena trials occasionally :rolleyes:.

 

I just didn't want anyone to think that is the norm at a sheepdog clinic. I do think clinicians are under a lot of pressure to get results in a very short period of time, so I don't particularly care to bring a dog for a problem anymore. I have gotten alot of clinics that were about the clinician conveying his/her philosophy of training and using the dogs to show you what they are and/or the stock is thinking and how to handle them for better understanding, if that makes sense. One of the best clinics I went to, at the beginning, was a David Roger's clinic. I brought my washout, completely nuts sheepdog and he worked with her a little but didn't try to "fix her" . Got a small amount of improvement and a big dose of "don't think this dog will be worth it for you", but what I really got from it was a clear method on how to use the stock to train the dog. Ok... so maybe I would have been better off auditing, but having someone with clear, thoughtful talent shake their head after working your dog really makes you think :D .

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"I'm sorry you had that experience- although I just had to pipe up and say I've been to several clinics and never witnessed anything close to what you are describing. That includes the clinics I went to with people I know did that kind of thing at home. I did have an issue with one clinician, but it had more to do with continuing to harshly, although not abusively, correct my dog after she was trying to give to him. Plus he made fun of me in front of a crowd :D. That person went on to do nothing much with his sheepdog career, although I do see him judging arena trials occasionally :rolleyes:. "

 

 

Well, I think it's good to look at both side of the clinic discussion. Just because someone has won a ton of trials still doesn't make him God in my eyes with "my" dog. I listen and take away what I think I can use. And, yes, most likely, both of my clinic experiences were out of the ordinary. I certainly hope so! I'd give my eye teeth to audit (and work) some of the great shedding clinics, etc. that go on in the Pacific Northwest. We have very few clinics here in So. Cal.

Suzanne http://walkupbcs.blogspot.com/

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I know some people that call themselves clinic whores. Not me, though I don't mind auditing. I have worked 2 dogs in 2 clinics in 7 years. Both times I was disappointed and both clinics were with very well respected handlers. First clinic the handler wanted to take my soft dog out behind the shed and beat him. Honest, that is what he said. He took a lunge whip to my dog and my dog grabbed the end of the whip. This is my now 9 yr. old open dog who would stand on his head for me if I asked. He was 2 yrs. old at the time. Second clinic, the clinician thought he knew my dog in a few seconds. Now mind you he was a big hat, but how do you know a dog in a matter of a few seconds. Plus, this clinician kicked some of the novice dogs in the side that didn't respond to him. It sickened me.

Possibly just bad experiences, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I spend a lot of hours working my dogs and trying to team up with them. I certainly don't want it "undone" because some clinician is having a bad day or whatever the excuse may be. Just food for thought.

If you have a soft dog, I'd be leary of rushing to make a clinic deadline until you get some experience under your belt. Go ahead and audit the clinic. You will probably learn more that way. I think some people go to work in clinics to hear how nice there dog is or to show the dog off. I personally think clinics are good for handlers who have a problem that they can't solve on their own. But, I believe the dog should have some form of a stop and be able to work with another person in the picture.

Sorry if that sounded like sour grapes, but I think my dogs set their own timelines. Each one works differently and learns in a different timeframe than the other one. Enjoy the journey. Go audit the clinic instead of trying to rush to be ready...ready for what? Without a dog in the picture you can really concentrate. :0)

P.S. I'm going to my 3rd clinic this fall. I took a working spot, but not with my novice ranch dog. I don't want to pressure her. I am working in the clinic with my upcoming open dog. I know exactly what I'd like to work on.

Suzanne

 

Hi Suzanne:

 

Although I am new to this, I can see a really great point in what you said. I think that it is best to go to a clinic with a goal; that is to say, a specific skill or idea that you want to address with the dog (i.e., shedding, driving, etc). I can see where one, particularly a new handler, could fall into the habit of going to many clinics without really making much progress- simply because the handler does not have a specific goal in mind, or what they want to accomplish is too broad to be addressed during a short amount of time.

 

Auditing is great advice for general learning: at the clinic I attended, the clinician was on a microphone the entire time, so the attendees could watch and listen to each dog's run. It was an excellent learning opportunity that did not at all involve my dog. In fact, I am certain that I learned far more by listening and watching other handlers work their dogs than I did when it was my turn.

 

Karrin

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