juliepoudrier Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Okay, since Darci is unhappy with the lack of discussion in this forum, I'm going to post a question about my clappy dog and see what sorts of ideas (other than "get rid of her") y'all have. I know some folks who read this forum saw her last weekend at Sharry Smith's trial, so you will have a clear idea of exactly what I'm talking about. Under most circumstances, I can manage Lark just fine and her tendency toward clappiness doesn't interfere with our work. BUT when there's a really strong draw, especially on a trial field, she wants to go to the pressure point, clap there, and stop all stock motion, pretty much in any direction. This has happened just a couple of times at trials, and when it does, I just retire, but if anyone has ideas for training at home that might help us work through this on the trial field, I'd appreciate it. If not, then just share your clappy dog headaches, stories, whatever.... Here's the scene from last weekend: The exhaust, which is a strong draw to the sheep, is behind the handler's post and slightly to the left of it. The drive away is a left hand drive on a line that is nearly at a right angle to the handler's post. For the entire drive away, the sheep are pulling heavily left back toward the exhaust. Enter Lark, who very much just wanted to go to the heads and park herself there to block any thought of turning left back toward the exhaust. When she went to the heads, the sheep would turn away, and I would need to flank her to the right to correct the "zig" in that direction. Then the trouble would start, because the moment the sheep started to straighten out on the line, Lark would want to flip over to the left and block that "escape route." With a non-clappy dog I would at that point simply ask for a stop and walk-up right there, but Lark hits the deck before I can ask anything and then while I'm wasting time getting her back up, the sheep have shifted enough to the left (back toward the exhaust) that her strong desire to head them kicks back in. Ideally, she should have been able to manage this by working the lead sheep from off to the left side without actually stopping the action, but in high pressure situations like this, her default is to lie down, which of course allows the sheep to stop. Then I have to ask her up, lift the sheep again, and try to get her to come off the pressure and move them forward. After a few repetitions of this, the sheep got rather pissy and started to challenge her. She ended up gripping a nose (which the judge allowed because--I assume--the sheep had challenged her and it was a clean, proper grip), but then flung herself right back around to the pressure point on the left, and clapped again. At that point I retired. In theory, I know I need to keep her on her feet and moving. But the reality is that she's so quick to get to the pressure and clap that I can't always prevent it. She is a good driving dog, so I don't consider the clapping to be related to any sort hesitancy to push on the drive--once I *get her up,* she will push straight in (in fact, she was what would be described as a "boring" dog when we first started training). Interestingly, she doesn't work cattle this way, but unfortunately I don't keep cattle and cattle trials are few and far between around here, so I need to work through this on sheep. In general, she's a useful little dog and really could be running in open if I didn't already have two open dogs (she's running in ranch right now). I generally work her on larger, lighter groups at home to keep her free flanking and on her feet. Thoughts? (And if any of you who happened to catch our run last weekend would like to post your observations--maybe I'm missing something obvious?--that's cool. I won't be offended.) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I think you should work her on large groups of heavy sheep that tend to just go in different directions if the dog goes on its belly. Oh, look, there's some out my back window! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I think she needs to learn to work sheep at the shoulder, as she probably does naturally on cattle (at least it's my understanding that that is the way to work them, haven't done but a little myself). I've been trying to show this to Laura since Nick was overturning sheep on his fetch so she might be able to demonstrate it to you tomorrow. It's pretty hard to describe and even pretty hard to show, but it helps overflankers and really that's sort of what she's doing - going past where you want her to push in, so she can run to the "holding" spot and stop forward progress. It's a "good dog" problem - i'd rather have one fighting me to head the sheep than one that doesn't want to get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I think she needs to learn to work sheep at the shoulder Mick isn't clappy but has a hard time working the shoulder of sheep on a fetch. He can and does willingly work the shoulders on a drive but on a heavy draw fetch he is constantly turning them around or stopping them. How would you suggest helping the dog to learn to feel that on a fast moving fetch, where the draw is somewhere behind the post or to the side of the post, in the later case the line is off and he still feels the need to stop all action. How I've over come it and not really that well is by making him lie down and let the sheep get a bit ahead then flanking and stopping him on that shoulder point hopeing he'll feel it and stay there while on his feet. It's such a herky jerky line and movement, it's not working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I'm running out the door so this'll have to be quick but Becca and Julie and some others know this method i use from lessons so maybe they can add to it. Early on, i start "pulling" my dog toward me with his name. Any time i use his name, it's almost like a tug on a long line towards me (keep that long rope image in mind, it'll help to get the geometry). As the dog is coming down the fetch, i'd try to lean out to the side i want the dog pressing on, give a flank and call his name so he flanks but presses into the sheep/shoulder at the same time. I use this "virtual long line" in lots of places training and handling dogs so start it from day one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Makes sence, I'll try it the next time we get to sheep. I've never thought of calling the name as a "virtual long line" but do use their names to pull them into me. So it shouldn't be that hard for me to extend my thoughts on that line. Mick is gettin older and more set in his ways but we have gelled as a team so he's much easier to work with now, compared to when he thought it had to be his way of the highway. Thanks for the quick responce. Sorry Julie for hijacking your thread. Jonesing for sheep in CO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Sorry I don't have much to add...you've already observed that she doesn't work cattle like this. Darn! There went my suggestion! Usually, if you have one like this work cattle often enough, it really keeps them moving, and in the right spot to keep things going. Flanking around and lying down like that in the pressure spot with cattle will generally get the dog run over. The other suggestion someone had was to put her on bigger groups that will not stay together, or can you put some stock together that have DIFFERENT draws/pressure? Like some mismatched ewes and lambs, maybe, with their "other halves" in various places. If there is not just one place that will pull her in like this, she may just have to keep up and moving to cover different pressure spots...not sure how that would transfer later on to a single group with a single pressure spot/draw, however, but it might be fun to play with, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I like the idea of a virtual long line- and while I don't have any clappy dogs, I do have a dog that downs a little more than she needs too. I just use "on your feet" to get her back up. Seems like you could work on that off of stock. I use a table situation, something I stole from agility, and lay my dog down and teach them to get up at least into a sitting position at that command. Might be just enough to break her concentration and at least change her position so the sheep shift sooner. Not an expert, same dog that does "on your feet" really well has plenty of issues that require me to retire from the post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I have no idea whether this helps: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 My Alfie will also down pretty good at home rather than stop or sit. But my problem is getting her more bidable and willing to listen more. N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Hi Narita, I'm not sure what you're asking? In the case of my dog, the problem is automatically lying down when I want her to stay on her feet, a problem which is exacerbated in high-pressure situations like trials where there is a very strong draw for the sheep and I am seeking the greatest precision on our lines. It occurred to me, and I noted this in a message to someone who had PMed me, that I probably could have saved this run at this particular trial by sacrificing the line and allowing Lark to push them on over to the right, trying to hook them through the panel at the last second. This strategy would likely have prevented the super strong desire to go to the heads on the pressure side and hang there, and I will to try that the next time we encounter this problem at a trial (assuming I'm quick-witted enough to think of it--my brain was a bit fried on this day), but of course I'd really like to get her working right rather than relying on this sort of crutch on the trial field. Becca, Once we get past the beginning of May and I have more free weekends, I intend to take you up on the offer! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Ok. Julie, I promissed some input on how I managed my some times clappy dog. Since I understand its easier if one can see the dog, Heres what we accomplished. She wants to clap down....... I wanted her to stay on her feet........ So We compromised........ Admittedly, it was her idea, I just rolled with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Hi Narita,I'm not sure what you're asking? In the case of my dog, the problem is automatically lying down when I want her to stay on her feet, a problem which is exacerbated in high-pressure situations like trials where there is a very strong draw for the sheep and I am seeking the greatest precision on our lines. It occurred to me, and I noted this in a message to someone who had PMed me, that I probably could have saved this run at this particular trial by sacrificing the line and allowing Lark to push them on over to the right, trying to hook them through the panel at the last second. This strategy would likely have prevented the super strong desire to go to the heads on the pressure side and hang there, and I will to try that the next time we encounter this problem at a trial (assuming I'm quick-witted enough to think of it--my brain was a bit fried on this day), but of course I'd really like to get her working right rather than relying on this sort of crutch on the trial field. Becca, Once we get past the beginning of May and I have more free weekends, I intend to take you up on the offer! J. I tend to agree with the person who PM'd you to let go of the line a little to keep the flow. At Meeker every year there is a strong draw or pull back to the set out constantly and if you are trying to hold that nice tight line you will pay, pay, pay in lack of forward movement. It is a very fine line between just enough control of the sheep and too much. The dog that wants to go to pressure constantly to "keep control" is forever stopping them when what we really want is for them to stay on line and keep moving. Very intricate and requires the dog to take every slow down or stop we give. In training for this type of work we teach the dog to just get to pressure enough to keep the sheep moving forward but not stop them. This also requires a lot of work and patience to get what we are looking for out of the dog. You need to have that "handle" to get him to the right place on either side of the sheep and just hold them on line and still moving. On range sheep or some of the heavier types of sheep this will require a dog with a good degree of presence and one who will listen very well at the same time. Going to the head all the time not only causes the sheep to stop but, quite often, will also cause them to challenge the dog a lot. I'm sure that you are trying these things Julie but possibly you may be trying to hold that line a little too well and creating a fight that you don't really want to get into. There are times when we need to give a little to complete the task and this is probably one of them. Much better to be a little off line and finish than too try and hold the line and not move! Hope this helps some because I have experienced the same problems many times as I like to run with straight lines and tight turns and it is hard for me to give on line and I need to learn to do this myself. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 You know, Bob, I am really hoping for you to mend quickly and get back to "normal" - but I sure hope we don't lose all your helpful posts when you are back in the full swing of things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I have had these issues with Kell, and i still need to work on them at 7 years old. I will let the sheep go to a strong draw, and then let him eye up and stop them. Then i get close enough as needed to make him release his eye... into the pressure. I watch to make sure he is not flying around when he releases. It also helps to work in tight areas, and ask for very quite work. Take the sheep out of corners, pull them out of a pen and asked the dog to stay in the back of the pen while the sheep come out. Most dogs like you describe want to catch the sheep's eye half way out, and then follow them out. Like Bob said stopping the sheep can result in a fight with range ewes, i think Kell had learned that and liked it. I had to get to a point with him where he was more willing, or more worried about me than he was his eye. Yes the eye is their nature, but easing into the sheep's eye past where you told them to is still being disobedient on some level. "Much better to be a little off line and finish than too try and hold the line and not move!" Well said Bob i have leaned that the hard way! Cattle too only have so many turns in them and you are done. Lana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Bob or others I have a young dog (Mist x Tex) that I'm about to move to Open....Lana and I have discussed him at length and compared him in some ways to Lana's Kell. He's not clappy but has quite a bit of eye, smooth, pacy and stylish. He is a thing of beauty on commercial farm flocks, but he likes to peek around the shoulder of the fine wools and pick fights....and they hate him for it. He backed his sheep around the Nursery course at Sturgis....and I have a feeling that many more "backings" are in his future. Pretty cool headed about it. He's only been trialing since Scio last year (and not many trials) so I'm certain he will improve with experience. This dog is certainly different for me as I've been used to a free moving dog....tho' he does remind me somewhat of my old Open dog Black in some respects, being a line dog and "scary" to sheep. I have watched the problem unfold and it usually involves holding some sort of hard pressure, dog comes in to hold it, comes a little too far to the head, pushes in.......then doesn't get back out where he should be and keeps catching eye. Not good. I think that one of the answers is to teach him to move back out to a correct distance after coming in to give the ewes a push. How would you handle/train an eye dog that picks fights with range ewes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 For Kell he mostly out grew it with more work on range ewes, and confidence. Also keeping him back off of them, and not ever letting him get into their eye even once.He will never be a dog who can work the range ewes on a small course like Heppner. Cattle work helps too EB Lana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnandreturn Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I generally work her on larger, lighter groups at home to keep her free flanking and on her feet. I think you might want to rethink your logic on this approach. Sounds like you can get her to stay on her feet but it is not a part of her. I would work her on mama's with lambs. The new mama's are going to face up and be heavy. The clappy dog is going to want to clap. I would drill her on staying on her feet. I would make that the focus. Stand means stand. If she lays down I would correct her with a sharp "no". Not a repeat of the command. Then I would circle her on sheep and get her 500% on her stand command. And stand means stand, not a creeping stand. Don't use a "there" command until she will stand perfect every time. It is very easy to skip over this step. Get her so it looks like the ground is to hot to lie down on and she jumps up on her feet if she lies down. It won't take long and she will realize what she is doing wrong. From what I have read of your posts you seem to be very meticulous in your approach and a "thinking" person. You will get it real fast and wonder why you ever had a problem in the first place. When she flanks and you stop her and she starts to lie down and then changes her mind and stands you will know you are on the right track. Be careful that the correction does not become the command. The light sheep help to keep her on her feet but it doesn't help train her to stay on her feet in a tough situation. The new mama sheep will stand try to protect their lambs for the first three days then they will move off when the lambs are old enough to have some respect for the dog on their own. I would keep her on her feet. That would be my mission in life in every situation. Just make sure the correction comes as she starts to lie down because that is when her thinking changes. Drilling on the stand teaches her to stay with you mentally while she works. Then you can work her on sheep with a strong draw and stop her on her feet. Don't skip over the stand. Of course I could be completely off in my thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I tend to agree with the person who PM'd you to let go of the line a little to keep the flow. Actually it was me that thought/said that. I think I really was just brain dead--I had set the sheep for two days of open and nursery at this trial, and had just run down from the top to run my three youngsters before heading back up to finish out the third day and frankly wasn't exactly in a sharp trialing frame of mind. the youngsters paid for that, unfortunately. At Meeker every year there is a strong draw or pull back to the set out constantly and if you are trying to hold that nice tight line you will pay, pay, pay in lack of forward movement. It is a very fine line between just enough control of the sheep and too much. The dog that wants to go to pressure constantly to "keep control" is forever stopping them when what we really want is for them to stay on line and keep moving. Exactly. She was so worried about losing them that she was fighting me to go to the heads and I really just wasn't being quick enough to stop her from doing it. And as you noted, the sheep did get tired of it and turn to fight. At least Lark isn't intimidated by sheep who fight, but we should never have gotten to that point in the first place. I do need to work on having her stay back a bit and work the lead sheep with her eye while staying on her feet on off to the side--not to recreate this at home, so I can work on it. Twist, one of my open dogs, has always done this naturally, but then she's never been inclined to clap either, and I think that's the big difference. I'm sure that you are trying these things Julie but possibly you may be trying to hold that line a little too well and creating a fight that you don't really want to get into. There are times when we need to give a little to complete the task and this is probably one of them. Much better to be a little off line and finish than too try and hold the line and not move! Hope this helps some because I have experienced the same problems many times as I like to run with straight lines and tight turns and it is hard for me to give on line and I need to learn to do this myself. Bob This is exactly what the problem was, but of course I didn't see it until after the fact.... Oh well, live and learn. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 I think you might want to rethink your logic on this approach. Sounds like you can get her to stay on her feet but it is not a part of her. Absolutely correct. As soon as she has things under control, she hits the deck, no matter what. It's been a trial trying to put pace on her (because when she's not clapping she's actually rather pushy) because she takes every steady, time, etc., command as an excuse/command to stop (lie down). I was working lighter sheep so I could keep the flow and not give her much of a chance to try to clap as doing so would cause her to lose them. I would work her on mama's with lambs. The new mama's are going to face up and be heavy. The clappy dog is going to want to clap. Unfortunately, I didn't breed anything this year because I'm reducing my flock to make way for a changeover to a three-tier system. While she will clap in these situations (ewes with lambs), once she's on her feet she'll gladly walk straight into their faces and turn them. That's the oddity of Lark--although she's clappy, you can get her up and she will walk straight in. Another example would be on the lift. Although she will turn in on the pressure and most often lie down briefly, she'll also get up and lift the sheep without me asking her on. I'm probably not making a lot of sense here.... I would drill her on staying on her feet. I would make that the focus. Stand means stand. If she lays down I would correct her with a sharp "no". Not a repeat of the command. So, if I tell her stand and she lies down (which is exactly what she'll do) and I say "no!" and she's still on her belly, what next? Right now, if she is not moving forward or on a flank, she is on her belly. if I say "Get up!" she will get up, but she won't necessarily stay up unless all is moving as it should and there's not a heavy draw that makes her want to stop all motion by going to the heads. Then I would circle her on sheep and get her 500% on her stand command. And stand means stand, not a creeping stand. Don't use a "there" command until she will stand perfect every time. It is very easy to skip over this step. Get her so it looks like the ground is to hot to lie down on and she jumps up on her feet if she lies down. It won't take long and she will realize what she is doing wrong. I think I'm just going to have to go out and experiment some more and see if I can get something that works re: getting her to stand at the stop rather than lie down. It all makes sense, I'm just not at the moment picturring the mechanics of making it work. When she flanks and you stop her and she starts to lie down and then changes her mind and stands you will know you are on the right track. Be careful that the correction does not become the command. I will be here crowing the news if I can get her to the point where she'll just stand and not lie down. I would keep her on her feet. That would be my mission in life in every situation. Just make sure the correction comes as she starts to lie down because that is when her thinking changes. Drilling on the stand teaches her to stay with you mentally while she works. Then you can work her on sheep with a strong draw and stop her on her feet. Don't skip over the stand. It'll defintely be a challenge to change her way of thinking and working, but I've got nothing to lose by getting out there and trying it. I'll let you know how it goes. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carol campion Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Hi Julie, My take on this is different. I didn't see your dog run but I was at the trial and know the draw. I don't think your problem is that the dog is clappy, but that she isn't driving the sheep—isn't trying to make them go. She is worried about the pressure and is trying to make them stop. I imagine if the pressure is directly behind you, this is not a problem. She would probably drive til the cows came home. She needs to learn to hold the weight of the sheep as a method of controlling them when the draw is to the side. She needs to learn that when she is on the proper pressure point, those sheep will move forward as readily as when the draw is behind. And she needs to be obedient when you ask her NOT to overflank to that point where she stops the sheep. She needs to be 100% in taking that release flank to allow the sheep to go when she is asked. If you can get this in place, and it is a lot of trust and obedience on her part, it will open up worlds of handling for her. I just described an exercise to Diane in "Experts" that you could use. I would work on her parallel driving with the draw behind you so she gets used to being on the side of the sheep holding the weight of them. In that position, it will be easy for you to see when she is going wrong and also clear to her that all that is being asked is to drive. Also, that spot that hits the correct pressure point makes the sheep pick up speed and go. She will like that. Separately, I would work her flanks with her so she is obedient to stop where asked and will take a flanks to release the sheep and stay put when and where you stop her so exactly that can happen—the sheep will be released. Then you will be able to flank her to the pressure point that you determine and she will hold the weight from there. It will give her that same sense that she gets when the draw is directly behind. That's what she is looking for—that feeling. This can help her create it anywhere. In addition to the above exercise, do a series of drives with the angle changing slightly each time. Start with the draw directly behind you. She will have no reason but to be directly behind them. Then start the drive again. This time drive angle it a slight bit across that draw. She will need to be up a bit on their hips to be right. Keep repeating this changing the angle slowly getting to the point where she has to be up along side the sheep. Your job is to handle her to find that spot that keeps the sheep moving and doesn't allow her to stop them. This pressure on her will be the same as it is in the parallel drive exercise. Keep in mind that a "walk up" should be that—not a flank. And a flank should be a flank. She is not going to like it at first. But if you show her how to hold the weight with the parallel drive exercise first, she will feel the power that gives her and eventually apply it to a drive like last weekend. On your part when handling her, don't flank/stop/flank/stop. The sheep don't respect a dog that works that way. Flank her onto the pressure point of your choosing and then ask for walk ups using a there or stop to keep her from over-flanking and invite her coming forward. Unless you ask for one, if she choses a flank, let her know she is wrong. Another dog with a similar problem is the one on the expert thread asking about over running to pressure and clapping on the top. It is the same thing there but showing up on the top of the outrun and fetch. Some of those ideas might help too. Good luck. This kind of problem is fun to solve! Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnandreturn Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Right now, if she is not moving forward or on a flank, she is on her belly. if I say "Get up!" she will get up, but she won't necessarily stay up unless all is moving as it should and there's not a heavy draw that makes her want to stop all motion by going to the heads. I never use a "Get up" command. I used to use the command, "get on your feet" but then I realized this was actually another command. The real problem was a disobedience on the stand command. So I started to correct my dogs for downing when I said stand. It used to be a big plus in trials with a dog that stayed on its feet. Doesn't seem so important to the judges now. But it is important to the sheep! The handlers new that sheep work better with a dog on its feet. Especially at close quarters such as the pen and shed. I teach my dogs to stand on command before I teach them to lie down. I figure that why teach something that I will have to change later. It takes some discipline on the handlers part but it pays off big time later on. You somehow have to get the feeling across to her that downing is not what you asked, but to stop. I think all that Carol said is accurate but first I would get the obedience of the stand. Get that out of the way and have confidence that she will stay on her feet. Then work on the drives that Carol talked about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Absolutely correct. As soon as she has things under control, she hits the deck, no matter what. It's been a trial trying to put pace on her (because when she's not clapping she's actually rather pushy) because she takes every steady, time, etc., command as an excuse/command to stop (lie down). I was working lighter sheep so I could keep the flow and not give her much of a chance to try to clap as doing so would cause her to lose them.Unfortunately, I didn't breed anything this year because I'm reducing my flock to make way for a changeover to a three-tier system. While she will clap in these situations (ewes with lambs), once she's on her feet she'll gladly walk straight into their faces and turn them. That's the oddity of Lark--although she's clappy, you can get her up and she will walk straight in. Another example would be on the lift. Although she will turn in on the pressure and most often lie down briefly, she'll also get up and lift the sheep without me asking her on. I'm probably not making a lot of sense here.... So, if I tell her stand and she lies down (which is exactly what she'll do) and I say "no!" and she's still on her belly, what next? Right now, if she is not moving forward or on a flank, she is on her belly. if I say "Get up!" she will get up, but she won't necessarily stay up unless all is moving as it should and there's not a heavy draw that makes her want to stop all motion by going to the heads. I think I'm just going to have to go out and experiment some more and see if I can get something that works re: getting her to stand at the stop rather than lie down. It all makes sense, I'm just not at the moment picturring the mechanics of making it work. I will be here crowing the news if I can get her to the point where she'll just stand and not lie down. It'll defintely be a challenge to change her way of thinking and working, but I've got nothing to lose by getting out there and trying it. I'll let you know how it goes. J. You've got a long road ahead of you getting this dog to stay on it's feet but it will be worth it if you can........Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnandreturn Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 You've got a long road ahead of you getting this dog to stay on it's feet but it will be worth it if you can........Bob If she gets the correction figured out it won't take very long. It is very surprising how fast it comes. Even on an older dog. She just has to be consistant with insisting the dog stays on her feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Hi Julie, My take on this is different. I didn't see your dog run but I was at the trial and know the draw. I don't think your problem is that the dog is clappy, but that she isn't driving the sheep—isn't trying to make them go. She is worried about the pressure and is trying to make them stop. I imagine if the pressure is directly behind you, this is not a problem. She would probably drive til the cows came home. She needs to learn to hold the weight of the sheep as a method of controlling them when the draw is to the side. She needs to learn that when she is on the proper pressure point, those sheep will move forward as readily as when the draw is behind. And she needs to be obedient when you ask her NOT to overflank to that point where she stops the sheep. She needs to be 100% in taking that release flank to allow the sheep to go when she is asked. If you can get this in place, and it is a lot of trust and obedience on her part, it will open up worlds of handling for her. I just described an exercise to Diane in "Experts" that you could use. I would work on her parallel driving with the draw behind you so she gets used to being on the side of the sheep holding the weight of them. In that position, it will be easy for you to see when she is going wrong and also clear to her that all that is being asked is to drive. Also, that spot that hits the correct pressure point makes the sheep pick up speed and go. She will like that. Separately, I would work her flanks with her so she is obedient to stop where asked and will take a flanks to release the sheep and stay put when and where you stop her so exactly that can happen—the sheep will be released. Then you will be able to flank her to the pressure point that you determine and she will hold the weight from there. It will give her that same sense that she gets when the draw is directly behind. That's what she is looking for—that feeling. This can help her create it anywhere. In addition to the above exercise, do a series of drives with the angle changing slightly each time. Start with the draw directly behind you. She will have no reason but to be directly behind them. Then start the drive again. This time drive angle it a slight bit across that draw. She will need to be up a bit on their hips to be right. Keep repeating this changing the angle slowly getting to the point where she has to be up along side the sheep. Your job is to handle her to find that spot that keeps the sheep moving and doesn't allow her to stop them. This pressure on her will be the same as it is in the parallel drive exercise. Keep in mind that a "walk up" should be that—not a flank. And a flank should be a flank. She is not going to like it at first. But if you show her how to hold the weight with the parallel drive exercise first, she will feel the power that gives her and eventually apply it to a drive like last weekend. On your part when handling her, don't flank/stop/flank/stop. The sheep don't respect a dog that works that way. Flank her onto the pressure point of your choosing and then ask for walk ups using a there or stop to keep her from over-flanking and invite her coming forward. Unless you ask for one, if she choses a flank, let her know she is wrong. Another dog with a similar problem is the one on the expert thread asking about over running to pressure and clapping on the top. It is the same thing there but showing up on the top of the outrun and fetch. Some of those ideas might help too. Good luck. This kind of problem is fun to solve! Carol Excellent post Carol. And very informative in the training aspect also. Thank you.......Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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