Does anyone do their homework anymore?!?!

[JaderBug]

I don't know about the other people on here, but it seems like the idiots are out and everywhere lately, and they seem to be looking for/raising dogs.

 

I'm sure not everyone here has the same story as me, but like I've said before, I spent about a year planning for Jade, although probably mostly because I had to. I mentioned in the "Pet Stores" ad that I have been in contact with a woman looking for a BC pup and found what I'm sure is a puppy mill- she didn't seem to take my advice about taking her time or looking for a more responsible breeder. She got my e-mail because I posted on Craigslist about getting a doggy-play day together. Today, I got another e-mail from someone interested in the play date, but this time this person has a six week old puppy that he wants to socialize when it gets older.

 

Six weeks? Who is breeding these dogs and letting them go so early??! Even if you have an 'oops' litter, those puppies are still your responsibility.

 

Speaking of puppies and responsibilities (or lack of), I saw four BC puppies this weekend, probably 12 or 13 weeks old, and MASSIVELY undersocialized. I saw them peeking their heads over the gate to the pen they were in, walked up to the little shed, and they all proceeded to clammer into the farthest corner away from me, and then dived and climbed under each other as to hide and get away. I went up to look at them- I've never seen puppies so tense before. Scared witless. One peed when I tried to pet it. When I commented about the poor socialization to someone, they said "oh [the owner/breeder] is probably busy with farming/cattle." to which I said, "So?! They still need to be worked with and cared for!" and responded to, "Well, it probably wasn't a planned litter..." "so?! Planned or not the guy still has an intact bitch and stud, they're his responsibility regardless of if they're planned or not!" Good luck to whoever gets those pups... I don't know how hard it is to work with a dog like that, but I don't imagine its very easy.

 

I won't even get started on my future in-laws that raise puggle puppies.

 

I've also tried to help friends get pups, and they usually are wholly unprepared for the pup when they get it- two people hadn't bought crates, food bowls, thought about puppy food, training, etc. until after they brought the pup home. One took her bitch home and got pregnant at about 9 months (got her spayed shortly after). Another has since essentially dumped the dog at his parents' house, and while he's pretty well cared for, it's pretty upsetting. Another acquaintance has a *stupid stupid* lab (I don't generally like labs, but this one would make anyone dislike them) who eats EVERYTHING (I've gotten panicked calls about ingested reading glasses, batteries, jewelry, many others). She doesn't train him not to eat everything in sight, and now supposedly she's getting a free Great Dane puppy. Good lord, I can only imagine how badly that will go. Bigger dog, bigger vet bills. Not my problem, I guess... but I love GDs and I hate to see one owned by this person.

 

I don't understand how people can dive into owning a dog like this without thought or preparation. How can responsible dog owners/breeders get through to the not-so-responsible ones? Why don't people do their homework before buying/breeding dogs??

 

Sorry, this turned into quite a rant. I know (as discussed recently on here) that not everyone has had the start with dogs that they would have liked. Having said that, I truly don't mean to step on any toes. I'm a little frustrated right now.

 

Where's that head-banging icon when you need it?? lol

[JaderBug]

Update... I e-mailed the first woman to see if she got a pup from the possible puppy mill place, and of course she did. Guess that's what happens when you need one *now*. Hope she made a good decision.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I don't know how hard it is to work with a dog like that, but I don't imagine its very easy.

 

Um, it's not easy, that's for sure, I have one.

 

I'm afraid, it's just one of those things that you have to just keep talking about. My best friend (like we'd take a bullet for each other friend) got a "tea-cup" chi puppy after I tried explaining to her the whole "tea-cup" part is just breeding of bad genetics and lots of those dogs end up with heart/lung problems. She also wanted to stud him out. She also thought that because he was super friendly and loves everyone, never barks and does not have "little dog syndrom" that she should get another one. That one turned out to be all that times 10 and she had to give him to her BIL because he was terrorizing the other one. Not to mention BOTH dogs came from BYB's after I told her all about them. She's since changed her tune and realized I wasn't being irrational. She is still my best friend and her dog is FINALY neutered.

 

My aunt got a friken puppy (I'm thinking bc/beagle cross) from the rescue I volunteer for and while he is well cared for, he NEEDS to learn some doggy manners and really could benefit from some obedience classes (that we offer with adoption but they didn't take). They are always asking me if I want him and if I can make him listen, blah, blah, blah. I don't know how many times I've had to tell them that THEY HAVE TO TRAIN THEIR DOG.

 

Don't even get me started on the dog I saw today! It looked like a pit/jrt cross. WTH?? I came around the corner with my foster dog (who has great canine communication skills) and this dog went off the WALL! We walked slow and gave him a large arch, we all averted our eyes, but he was going mental. All the owner would do is sit there and swear at him. Frig.

 

The idiots are always out there, sometimes they jump out of the bushes and smack you in the face all at once!

[Root Beer]

I don't understand how people can dive into owning a dog like this without thought or preparation.

 

They can do it because they don't know what they don't know.

 

When I was a kid, my Dad brought home a dog one day. No research, no preparation. There was a puppy in town that had been abandoned, he brought it home and we kept it.

 

When my husband and I decided to get a dog, we went to the SPCA and we got one. No research, no preparation. We just did it.

 

When we decided to get another dog, we went to a breeder and bought a Border Collie puppy. No research, no preparation. We just did it.

 

When we decided to get a third dog, we went on Petfinder, found a dog we liked, applied for her, met her, and adopted her. No research, no preparation. We just did it.

 

It wasn't until after we got our third dog that I even knew that people did research and made preparations to get new dogs.

 

I didn't know what I didn't know. I've learned a lot since then and I'd never recommend that anyone acquire dogs in the impulsive, haphazard way that we did. Still, in our case it worked out perfectly. We did it because we didn't know any different at the time.

 

Now Dean, our fourth dog, was adopted after much more consideration and preparation, but guess what? His original owners dove into owning him with no thought or preparation. They also took him from his mother and litter at 6 weeks. It didn't work out so well for them as it did for us, but in the end it did work out for Dean and I'm grateful for that.

 

Sorry, this turned into quite a rant. I know (as discussed recently on here) that not everyone has had the start with dogs that they would have liked. Having said that, I truly don't mean to step on any toes. I'm a little frustrated right now.

 

OUCH! My toes are BROKEN!!

 

No, seriously - I'm right there with you. It is frustrating.

[JaderBug]

The idiots are always out there, sometimes they jump out of the bushes and smack you in the face all at once!

 

LOL Ain't that the truth...

 

I would have said 'ignorance,' but Kristine said it, people don't know what they don't know.

[desertranger]

It amazing how many people I meet watna BC and it;s even more amazing how much time I spend trying to discourage them or at least making sure they're the right type of people for a Border Collie. It would be great if there were a list of 10 questions you could ask to see if someone wold make a suitable insane person.

[AllieMackie]

It amazing how many people I meet watna BC and it;s even more amazing how much time I spend trying to discourage them or at least making sure they're the right type of people for a Border Collie.

 

It's funny you say that, because when people hear that I have a border collie, I start hearing stories about how every BC they ever met was insane/ran circles in the backyard/stares at walls/whatever. I only wish I had the gall to ask every one of them about their breeding, the way they were raised, how much exercise/stimulation they got a day, etc.

[BNM1980]

I empathize, but I also think it is wrong to say that not doing enough research before you get the dog makes you an irresponsible person, for the excellent reason that I myself didn't.

 

What's important is that you rise to the occasion once you have undertaken the responsibility of caring for a dog.

 

The first week I got Blake I began to read up properly on border collies. Panic set in. The following month I had Blake I did nothing but read, read, read and buy, buy, buy. The initial outlay for the pup himself quickly doubled, tripled, and quadrupled... I also made plans and restructured my life to accommodate the routine that I knew would be essential to looking after him.

 

A lot of people rush in to getting a puppy because they are so wonderfully cute. It's not called being an "idiot"; it's called following your heart, something to which I (and Root Beer, if I am not mistaken) are prone. And there is also a more complex, psychological reason for this. There is a powerful selection bias at work during that emotional rush of getting a new puppy: the reasons for getting the dog become the most salient in your mind, and the reasons against it—which you should be considering very carefully indeed—you subliminally repress or rationalize.

 

So long as your head catches up with your heart, I don't see the problem. Indeed, how many of us posting are "happy accidents"?!

 

(AllieMackie, Finnegan Jake is great name. Are you a fellow James Joyce enthusiast?)

[mbc1963]

Yeah, I'd say it's the "rising to the occasion" that counts. If I had done more research, I wouldn't have chosen from the shelter a dog who hid back in the indoor kennel and then climbed under the arch of my knees when I sat on the floor to visit him - I would have known he was probably going to be a very difficult dog.

 

When I got him home, the first couple weeks were like a big smack in the face: "What did you do? What were you thinking?! And you signed a paper that promised you'd deal with his issues, whatever they are!!"

 

But he's OK now, and gets along well in suburbia. I learned and read a lot about reactive dogs. It's kind of useful knowledge to have when you move about in the world.

 

Meanwhile, there was a darling Aussie pup at a house up the street a couple years ago. He would be chained out in his yard, and we'd visit. I never saw them take him for a walk. I guess they gave him attention inside the house. Then, he disappeared, when he hit the age of six months or so. Never saw him again.

 

Now, in the same house, there's a darling huskie pup. Same deal. He's got one broken front leg in a cast - not sure what happened with that. He cries when we walk by, because he wants to see another dog so badly. I'm just ticking down the minutes until he, too, disappears for good.

 

::Sigh::

 

The people who frustrate me the most are the ones who never seem to learn from their own past. "That first puppy - he just cried and ate the furniture because he was a bad puppy. Let's go get another one; it will be a much better puppy this time!" Serial abandoners, I guess. Duh. (Works the same with bad marriages - my coworker at the next classroom is about to embark on his third disastrous marriage in a period of five years. We all see the disaster coming. He's the only one who can't see it. Yeesh.)

 

Mary

[Murphys mom]

The first week I got Blake I began to read up properly on border collies. Panic set in. The following month I had Blake I did nothing but read, read, read and buy, buy, buy. The initial outlay for the pup himself quickly doubled, tripled, and quadrupled... I also made plans and restructured my life to accommodate the routine that I knew would be essential to looking after him.

 

Been there done that! I was pretty ignorant when we got Murphy(meaning owning a BC), but I knew what I wanted from this whole experience and started working toward that goal!

 

What's important is that you rise to the occasion once you have undertaken the responsibility of caring for a dog.

 

I think this sentence says it all, but like alot of things in todays world people give up to easily or don't take responsibility for their actions.

 

Now when I need a puppy face and belly fix, I go to the photo gallery and get it!

[Bo Peep]

I was the idiot with my first border collie. No crate, we had food from our other dog that was a mixed breed. Luckily the bed was too tall and she was afraid to jump off at night. I was prepared for the 2nd one. Now, I always have an extra crate in case one in need walks across my path. It's strange how we learn these things.

 

My first BC was an "impulse" buy and I'm not sorry I did it. She taught me a lot, made me read about Border Collies and got me started in obedience, which then lead me into sheep and more dogs. The people that do it over and over again just don't get it.

[mum24dog]

Six weeks? Who is breeding these dogs and letting them go so early??!

 

Nothing wrong with 6 weeks in the right circumstances.

What if the bitch has lost all interest in the pups?

What if the pups are just learning bad habits from each other like bullying?

What if the pups aren't getting the socialisation they need?

What if the pup is going to a dog savvy home with older dogs that can teach it manners?

 

Pups raised in an ideal environment destined for a first dog home certainly no rush to move them on but each case really needs to be judged on its merits rather than there being a blanket condemnation.

 

Pam

[JaderBug]

Nothing wrong with 6 weeks in the right circumstances.

What if the bitch has lost all interest in the pups?

What if the pups are just learning bad habits from each other like bullying?

What if the pups aren't getting the socialisation they need?

What if the pup is going to a dog savvy home with older dogs that can teach it manners?

 

Pups raised in an ideal environment destined for a first dog home certainly no rush to move them on but each case really needs to be judged on its merits rather than there being a blanket condemnation.

 

Pam

 

 

One of the first things I learned about looking for a pup was not to take one before 7 or 8 weeks because they need that long to keep socializing with their brothers and sisters. That's all I meant by that, I didn't consider all the things you listed. The learning curve continues.

 

You all are absolutely right when you say its important that people rise to the occasion after they've decided to get a dog and become responsible owners- most of the people that I ranted about haven't done that. They never really did much past "oh cute puppy!" so I guess that's the most frustrating part.

[Cody & Duchess]

I volunteer in a local shelter - walking and training dogs. If we get a BC in - he/she will be adopted out that day - they are so popular. Yesterday I went in and there was a beautiful teenageish boy. He was really beautiful and already adopted. I went to visit with him - he was trying to climb on my head, didn't have a single manner and would probably be a real handful. I spoke to the person who handled the adoption and she said a good family with four kids (8-16) had adopted the dog. In the time that I was there - at least 3 other groups came in to adopt the border collie. One older lady ( real sweet) came in because she had a smaller dog that needed anotherr to play with and she knew BCs were smart. I love my Cody and Duchess - but put a ton of time and energy into their care. The commitment is huge. How did the BC - because he is smart - be the dog to have?

[JaderBug]

How did the BC - because he is smart - be the dog to have?

 

I imagine it's because people think they're so smart, it means they won't need to be trained, they'll just know how to behave. I think it also probably has more or less to do with the fact that they're in the media a LOT so people see them and how much fun the TV families have with them.

[Freeman 101]

Speaking of puppies and responsibilities (or lack of), I saw four BC puppies this weekend, probably 12 or 13 weeks old, and MASSIVELY undersocialized.

 

-------------------------

Although they were probably undersocialized, I think shyness has a huge genetic link. I say this because I have a shy dog that has had a lot of positive socializing and he's still very shy, And he will always be a shy boy.

I've also seen different litters come from the same breeder. The breeder did not socialize any of the puppies, and some were very social and some were very shy. These were Border collie puppies.

 

My Lab came out of the womb a very social girl! We still did lots of socializing with her, but she's never shown an ounce of fear. I think a bomb could go off around her and she would just take it in stride. On the other hand, I can drop a pot and my BC is running to a back room to hide!

 

Something that I do find interesting about my Border collie is that his shyness disappears in the agility setting. Sounds don't scare him. He's social in this setting, so much so that no one believes he's really shy.

 

I'm not discounting the need for socializing puppies. I'm just stating that I think that genetics plays a big role in the socialness of the puppy's personality.

[desertranger]

How did the BC - because he is smart - be the dog to have?

 

I imagine it's because people think they're so smart, it means they won't need to be trained, they'll just know how to behave. I think it also probably has more or less to do with the fact that they're in the media a LOT so people see them and how much fun the TV families have with them.

 

Actually that question has several answers.

 

Start with appearance. Put 10 dogs (especially puppies) of the same age in a group together and include a BC. Which one get's all the attention.

Watch TV (or the movies) While there may be a dog in the scene, if it's a VC he steals the scene.

The average person doens't photograph dogs at random unless they are BCs. (I have proof).

They have a reputation for being smart.

They also have a reputration of being hard to take care of, a challenge. In this case quite often the challenge a bit much to handle.

Personiality. Never seen a BC that wasn't willing to greet about anyone in a friendly manner.

Strong character.

 

 

People see me at the park or downtown with (abby (also called Mookie) a beautifully marked sable coated rough collie) and Jin my BC. Both beautiful dogs. Mook is not nearly as smart as Jin but she is well trained and does more than Jin. Mook also has 7 years of training on her. Finally she's very mellow in public and nowhere near as intense as Jin in executing her instructions.

 

In public I give a command they both do it and most of the time together like a team. They heel as a pair, as well as sit and down as a pair. And everyone goes how cool, the dogs work together. Now comes the meet and greet. So who do you think gets all the attention? Jin. He gets surrounded like like he was a rock star and poor Abby (Mook) just stands there almost ignored.

 

I've been asked this on other forums. What do you do about the celeb status of your dog. the answer is nothing. Enjoy the 15 minutes of fame Warhol said you would get.

 

On that note think I'll take Jin downtown for some breakfast.

[juliepoudrier]

One of the first things I learned about looking for a pup was not to take one before 7 or 8 weeks because they need that long to keep socializing with their brothers and sisters. That's all I meant by that, I didn't consider all the things you listed. The learning curve continues.

Rachel,

What you were told isn't wrong, really. For *most* situations, it is best to wait for a pup to turn 7 or 8 weeks old before sending it to a new home precisely because of the social interactions and lessons that come from mom and littermates. The points Mum24dogs made are quite valid, but I think you need to remember that she expressly named *dog savvy,* *other dogs to help teach pup manners,* etc. My Lark came to me at 6 weeks old, but I already had six adult border collies and so qualified as a dog (border collie) savvy owner with adult dogs who could help socialize the pup and teach her manners. For the average pet owner (maybe non-dog savvy, maybe without other dogs, maybe without the time to work at socializing and teaching manners to a youngster), not letting them have a pup until it's a bit older makes all the sense in the world.

 

Obviously, there are no absolutes, and in most cases I think it makes perfect sense to say that *in general* pups shouldn't go to their new homes before they are seven weeks old or older.

 

J.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

This has turned out to be a pretty good thread!

 

I have to admit, I am one of those people who got a dog on impulse. I had dogs my entire life, sometimes up to three at a time. Not having a dog was really hard. I got a bc puppy. Why? Because I wanted a dog I could do something with. I knew they were crazy intelligent and pretty high maintenance but that's it. I wish I would have known more, but I didn't. But I'm glad I didn't because someone else would have gotten Daisy and I am 100% positive she would have been in the shelter by the time she was a year old. Everyone who asks me what kind of dog I have and I tell them, think I'm nuts. But I am willing to go the extra mile for this one, that's the kind of person I am. I don't give up on much. Clearly I will have WAY more knowledge on the next dog, but you know what, I still want another bc, I just know how to choose better this time. No regrets. I just wish there were more people out there that wouldn't give up, you know.

[BNM1980]

I also wanted to make a point regarding the first post, though it may be nitpicking.

 

"Idiot" is not the right word here; rather, Jaderbug, you mean to say that some people are ignorant.

 

A person who is ignorant makes the wrong decision because they don't have all the facts in front of them.

 

An idiot is a person who makes the wrong decision despite having all the facts in front of them.

 

So please, don't go hastily calling people idiots; save that word for the people who really deserve it.

 

(Though, by all means, you may call me ignorant ).

[Laurelin]

See, I think I have the opposite problem... I think I sometimes over think the plan to add a BC and over research. There have been points where I've nearly scared myself out of one, but I keep coming back for some strange reason.

 

It may not be the next dog, but I will have one eventually.

[Brad]

I've been asked this on other forums. What do you do about the celeb status of your dog. the answer is nothing. Enjoy the 15 minutes of fame Warhol said you would get.

 

I have the opposite. I take my team to the lake, or park, or anywhere, and my girl (pittyx) gets all the attention. Oh, she's so beautiful, blah blah..what is she? I explain, then introduce the BC, and people just oh, ya, he's cute too.....go figure!

[Laurelin]

The bc at our agility class gets ignored. Everyone coos all over the aussie and the collie.

 

At the shelter, though, bcs are often adopted fast, usually by someone that has no idea what they're getting into. I can't count the times I've been asked 'Will he get hyper?' or 'Are border collies good dogs?' I wish I was allowed one. They let anyone with a yard take a bc. It's no wonder we get a lot of the pups back at about 6 months- 2 years.

 

The average person doens't photograph dogs at random unless they are BCs. (I have proof).

 

My pap gets a lot of random people taking her pictures. I'm not sure why but I assume it has something to do with her ears.

[Cody & Duchess]

Laurelin - from my readings of your post - if you want a BC - you know what you are getting yourself into- go for it. We would not be the "perfect BC owners - but we are very active and work from home. We wanted the BC because I knew a lot of them ended up in rescue, and I thought we would be a good match. Ultimately - Cody is a very lucky dog. He is cherished, exercised, hiked, run alot, etc. My thought on Cody is a that he is a lot like a kid - be consistent and fair - he is great. Don't be consistent and fair - and you get a dog that acts like you don't want.

[jdarling]

Six weeks? Who is breeding these dogs and letting them go so early??! Even if you have an 'oops' litter, those puppies are still your responsibility.

 

There are well-respected working breeders that let their pups go at six weeks. I think there are worse problems.