Border Collies, negative markers, and the like

[mbowles]

Our BC, Coop, is nearly 6 mnths old. We attended puppy classes and he has sit, down and crawl(he seems to like this). Stay, leave it are a little sketchy and Come is non-existant. We train with treats and clicker. My question for you guys is what do you use for a negative marker? If the dog is chewing on the corner of the rug, or railing, or (insert item here)... or if he is begging, or up on furniture....

 

We tried the water bottle and a can of coins....he reacted the first time...then after that just cocks his head and keeps up the bad behaviour. I have tried a low toned "no" and "uh-unh" but they rarely work. The only successful thing is for me to get up, go over with a stern expression and stance and get in the way.

 

He gets 2-3, 45 minute, walks a day, about 30 minutes of "ball" (you guys no the reaction to the word ball) and we train about 10-15 minutes every few days.

[Journey]

Get up walk over to him while he's chewing on the rug etc... and place a "dog" chew in his mouth. At 6 mo he is still teething, he needs to chew, you may want to take a wash cloth, get it wet, freeze it and give it to him to chew. He's too young to understand that not everything can go in his mouth! You need to "show" him what is acceptable and what is not. No negative marker needed, training and teaching is needed.

[Sue R]

You might try having him drag a light line around the house for two purposes - if you call him and he does not come (recall), you can give a little tug on the line to "remind" him that you are there. It also gives you something to step on if he wants to avoid you "catching" him.

 

Practice, practice, practice the recall. Don't allow him off lead/line anywhere or anytime, particularly outside where it is easy for him to play "keep away" or "chase me". Use particularly good treats for the recall (if he is treat-motivated), a cheerful voice (never, ever be negative when he does come to you no matter how angry or frustrated you might feel by that time), move backwards or away from him to encourage him to come along.

 

As long as you use a line, you avoid him learning that he doesn't have to listen to you - which lesson he has already learned (and I made that mistake with my Skye, who was the keep-away king, as my neglect of using the long line simply taught him that he could come if he wanted and not come if he didn't want).

 

My current pup, Dan, is pretty good at the recall at 10 weeks of age, but it's still spotty. He is very treat-oriented and I keep him on a Flexi or long line when outside virtually all the time. I do let him off at times to play with the other dogs and avoid tangles, but I carefully choose the time and place for that.

 

As for negative markers, we use the "uh-uh" or "no" (my husband likes that) which he has learned by association means that what he is doing is not approved. Use the word or expression you choose, followed by your action to remove him or the tempting object, and substitute an approved toy/chewie/activity with praise and positives. If you don't substitute something worthwhile, he will have little incentive to stop the undesired behavior.

 

I hope that the ball play is rolling and not throwing or bouncing where he is doing any amount of jumping. At this age, his joints are not done growing and damage can be done by too much impact activity or too much repetitive activity.

 

Enjoy!

[Root Beer]

My question for you guys is what do you use for a negative marker? If the dog is chewing on the corner of the rug, or railing, or (insert item here)... or if he is begging, or up on furniture....

 

I don't use a negative marker. I tell the dog what I want him or her to do.

 

If the dog is chewing on a corner of the rug, I tell him to leave it (provided a solid leave it has been trained), and then reward the leave it in some way (usually with a favorite toy). If it bothered me that a dog were "begging", I might cue the dog to do a down stay on a mat, or to go lie in a crate or something. If I didn't want the dog on the furniture, I would provide the dog with a spot of his or her own - a comfortable bed or mat or x-pen - and teach the dog, through reinforcement, to relax in that spot instead.

[mbowles]

thanks journey, I was not aware he could still be teething at 6 months. I iwll try the cold/forzen washcloth.

 

 

thanks sue, we do bounce the ball in the house..he loves to catch mid air and at that distance will return the ball to within 2-3 feet of me. Outside, we do let him play off leash in the fenced yard and wil lgo out and play fetch (long throw, we have an acre, and he brings ball back close so we can keep playing - 2 balls he is to smart for and waits for the second ) I need to find a long leash for use int he house for recall training it seems. and add more training time.

 

Will post again as we progress and I know I will have tons of questions.

[stockdogranch]

I just use a growly sort of voice with "acchht!". Works great. Now that my pup (11 weeks tomorrow) is beginning to understand "that'll do!" I have been using that more in the house when she starts to get into something she shouldn't (which is actually rare, so I am lucky). When I use that, and she stops what she is doing, I reinforce with a "good girl."

 

A

[JBlaylock]

I am too new here to know what the common view of Cesar Milan is in this forum, but I personaly think he is brilliant. I have raised three extremely happy, obidient, and submissive dogs (one Border Collie, one BorderCollie Labrador [borador] hybrid, and one wolfdog) and basically combined what i read in training books for positive reenforcement, with Cesar's correction techiniques. It has worked great for me. Your dog is a dog, and has basic dog instincts. Treat him like he would be treated in the pack. If he's doing somthing wrong, in the pack the leader would nip him on the neck, so - like Cesar teaches - shape your hand like a dog mouth and nip away. Again, it's worked great for me, and lots of other people.

[mbowles]

Thanks root beer, that seems to be the common thing.

 

stockdogranch, tell me more about the "that'l do" if you have a chance.

[Sue R]

"That'll do" is a stockdog expression that means to "stop what you are doing now".

 

Some folks use it in different ways - normally, it's used to let the dog know that the job is done and to stop working. Some folks use it to mean "stop what you are doing and come back to me". Others, just to say "stop what you are doing" followed up by "here" or whatever it is you want the dog to do.

 

I use it only (or try to, at least) as a stop to "good behaviors". In other words, "what you have been doing is fine, but I want you to stop now". I use "leave it" (or "no" or the growly "uh-uh" or "argh") as a stop for "bad or unacceptable behaviors", as in "what you are doing is not fine and I want you to stop now").

 

Being easily confused, I have to admit that I sometimes use it when I don't mean to but I try to use it as a "good thing" and not as a correction.

[Sue R]

I am too new here to know what the common view of Cesar Milan is in this forum, but I personaly think he is brilliant. I have raised three extremely happy, obidient, and submissive dogs (one Border Collie, one BorderCollie Labrador [borador] hybrid, and one wolfdog) and basically combined what i read in training books for positive reenforcement, with Cesar's correction techiniques. It has worked great for me. Your dog is a dog, and has basic dog instincts. Treat him like he would be treated in the pack. If he's doing somthing wrong, in the pack the leader would nip him on the neck, so - like Cesar teaches - shape your hand like a dog mouth and nip away. Again, it's worked great for me, and lots of other people.

Use the "search" function at the top of the page. There have been multiple, oftentimes long and heated, discussions about CM here. There are people who are in favor of, not in favor of, or of mixed feelings about him and his methods, what people might try or get out of his methods, and what he proposes that is very sensible with regards to dog ownership.

 

And, if I didn't already say so, "Welcome!"

[Debbie Meier]

Carol reminded me of this over at the "Ask the Expert" section when I asked what I should be expecting when I growl as a correction at my dog while working stock, you have to teach the dog the proper response to the correction. For example if you just say "That'll do" and wait for the dog to stop and come to you or keep repeating it until the dog comes to you, you could get get alot of different behaivors before the dog gives you what you are looking for. If you go back to when you used that can with the coins, first time you used it you got acknowledgement, that's a good thing, the next time you used it you got something else, rather then stopping there you should have got a little firmer until your dog gave you acknowledgement again. By allowing him to ignore the can you actually desensitized him to the can. Repeating the same method you used with the can will just continue you and your dog down a path of desensitizing him to correct or negative markers. If you want to use negative markers, the first thing you need to do is break your pattern of accepting what ever the dog offers, then modify that into getting into the habit of showing the dog what you are expecting when you use any given marker, and then holding them to it.

 

I hope that made sense, with negative markers or correction, IMO, the timing and knowing what you are going to expect before you ever use the maker are the keys. If you growl or say that'll do or shake a can and don't think about what you are expecting before you do it you can't show the dog when it produced the right or wrong behaivor.

 

Deb

[hsnrs]

Our trainer uses That'll Do a lot. Too funny; I actually heard a Leave It command in Costco today. It was a lady telling her kids to not touch something. Guess she had Border Collies at home. Narita