SoloRiver Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Jett is just about 18 months old now (yes, that magic age), 32 pounds, and has grown sleek, muscular and strong. Fly turned 10 last Christmas, weighs just under 40 pounds, has no orthopedic issues and is in excellent general shape. She's gotten a little slower on the outrun but other than that is not showing many signs of age. Jett and Fly have always gotten along well, playing, sharing crates, etc. until recently. They have not played together regularly for a few months now, but other than that were coexisting peacefully. Jett's been in season for about two weeks (her second season). A few days before she started bleeding, she began attacking Fly. These attacks have not been serious yet in the sense that Fly has not been badly hurt (a small puncture wound on her chest, and one on an elbow -- note the locations) but they are very aggressive and Jett is very determined. Fly is a natural omega dog and has zero interest in status and has done absolutely nothing to provoke these attacks. They usually occur when resources are in the vicinity (for example, while we are cooking dinner, or while we are hanging out in the bedroom watching a movie and the dogs all want access to us) but it is never anything as obvious as directly guarding food, or directly guarding me or my husband. They have also occurred in the garage, when I have let the dogs out of the car and no resources of any kind are in the vicinity. Jett will fly across the room to jump Fly, who is invariably just sitting there minding her own business. Fly never fights back and indeed does everything caninely possible to submit to Jett, to no avail, which is why her wounds are on her underside. Jett latches on and will not let go. She is not deterred by yelling, throwing things, or even being physically pulled off of Fly and will remain latched on to whatever part of Fly she has a hold of. I have even essentially alpha-rolled her -- not on purpose exactly but because on one occasion I actually had to tackle her and squash her to the floor to keep her from going after Fly again. It is very clear that I am displeased in these instances, but it seems to make no impression on Jett whatsoever -- she only keeps raging. Being squashed to the floor has no effect on her. Being dragged away by the scruff and cussed out has no effect on her. She remains fixated and snarling at Fly. It is very ugly. I have resorted to dragging her by the scruff and banishing her to the most distant crate (upstairs, where we rarely go) in the house as punishment. She doesn't like being up there, but I don't know that it is really deterring her. Her recalcitrance is especially striking because Jett is extremely compliant in every other context. She is very, very obedient but not, however, what I would call soft. Solo, to whom both Fly and Jett defer, does not participate in these fights and indeed acts as though nothing is happening, even if Fly is getting attacked five feet away from him. Although he has been known to be the fun police at times, he does not appear to think that intervening in bitch fights is anywhere in his alpha dog contract. I am following a protocol of strict separation now -- when Fly is out, Jett is crated, and vice versa. We all go for walks together and play ball together, and they go out into the yard together (with me watching closely), and there are no problems at those times. I am hoping that when Jett is done being in season and is no longer in the thrall of her hormones the situation will resolve itself, but in the meantime, I know that this is a very common issue when bitches live together and one is reaching the age of social maturity. I have no plans to breed Jett, but I did not want to spay her until she was at least two and physically quite mature. At any rate, my understanding is that spaying does nothing to ameliorate interbitch aggression and may even make it worse, so although I think it is not a coincidence that the situation has escalated while Jett is in season, I don't think it is something that is "caused" by being intact. However, I could be wrong about that. As I know this is a common issue that many of you have dealt with, I welcome any insights and advice. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hi, I think seperating during trigger times is best- obviously no beling left alone together, feed in seperate rooms/crates, control both dogs from being in your immediate area if you are doing something (for me it is cooking/eating) that they are interested in. I correct ANY posturing in our house- with 8 dogs, you have to. Nellie and Jane started out much how you describe Jett & Fly. They played all the time when Jane was a pup, Nellie is 3 years older. But when Jane turned 2 or so, it became a very jealous situation. They are very competitve about thresholds and are both angling for Mike and my attention always. Neither one is more guilty than the other- they both have triggers where one is the instigator. They are also both spayed- although they were both intact when it started, spaying did not make a difference. Jet (one t and also 18 months old) and Jane are starting out the same way- right now they are good friends. But Jet is a pill- I know she will realize her bitch potential eventual- she's already started picking on Nellie, who does not fight back with Jet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Must be the season - Maggie jumped Z over a bone last night; one scrape, lots of pulled hair, and required human intervention, but nothing too major in the long run. Luckily for me both girls seem to have no hard feelings today, so we'll just be removing all resources and separating when unsupervised for a while. Maggie had major interbitch issues with my parents' dog. Those never were resolved and eventually escalated to major puncture wounds needing vet care, so they were never allowed anywhere near each other. Just Oreo's presence would send Maggie into a fit of barking and lunging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I have no bitch fight advice, but listening to you describe the triggers, they are most definitely triggers for my reactive dog, too. He's much more hyped up if there's anything of value around - once pinned a Boston Terrier BFF when a woman pulled out chicken in a crowd of dogs. He also doesn't do well with any kind of transition spaces: doorways, entry and exits of cars... even being passed on a packed-down snow trail by another dog creates snarkiness. He's so odd (and I suspect you understand, having Solo!) that all his triggers are now hard-wired into my brain. Watching two normal dogs charge through a doorway at the same time almost gives me hives. I can't imagine it not leading to trouble. Good luck. Sounds like you're doing right by separating. Makes me glad I have no hormones to deal with but my own! Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Jett is just about 18 months old now (yes, that magic age), 32 pounds, and has grown sleek, muscular and strong. Fly turned 10 last Christmas, weighs just under 40 pounds, has no orthopedic issues and is in excellent general shape. She's gotten a little slower on the outrun but other than that is not showing many signs of age. Jett and Fly have always gotten along well, playing, sharing crates, etc. until recently. They have not played together regularly for a few months now, but other than that were coexisting peacefully. Jett's been in season for about two weeks (her second season). A few days before she started bleeding, she began attacking Fly. These attacks have not been serious yet in the sense that Fly has not been badly hurt (a small puncture wound on her chest, and one on an elbow -- note the locations) but they are very aggressive and Jett is very determined. Fly is a natural omega dog and has zero interest in status and has done absolutely nothing to provoke these attacks. They usually occur when resources are in the vicinity (for example, while we are cooking dinner, or while we are hanging out in the bedroom watching a movie and the dogs all want access to us) but it is never anything as obvious as directly guarding food, or directly guarding me or my husband. They have also occurred in the garage, when I have let the dogs out of the car and no resources of any kind are in the vicinity. Jett will fly across the room to jump Fly, who is invariably just sitting there minding her own business. Fly never fights back and indeed does everything caninely possible to submit to Jett, to no avail, which is why her wounds are on her underside. Jett latches on and will not let go. She is not deterred by yelling, throwing things, or even being physically pulled off of Fly and will remain latched on to whatever part of Fly she has a hold of. I have even essentially alpha-rolled her -- not on purpose exactly but because on one occasion I actually had to tackle her and squash her to the floor to keep her from going after Fly again. It is very clear that I am displeased in these instances, but it seems to make no impression on Jett whatsoever -- she only keeps raging. Being squashed to the floor has no effect on her. Being dragged away by the scruff and cussed out has no effect on her. She remains fixated and snarling at Fly. It is very ugly. I have resorted to dragging her by the scruff and banishing her to the most distant crate (upstairs, where we rarely go) in the house as punishment. She doesn't like being up there, but I don't know that it is really deterring her. Her recalcitrance is especially striking because Jett is extremely compliant in every other context. She is very, very obedient but not, however, what I would call soft. Solo, to whom both Fly and Jett defer, does not participate in these fights and indeed acts as though nothing is happening, even if Fly is getting attacked five feet away from him. Although he has been known to be the fun police at times, he does not appear to think that intervening in bitch fights is anywhere in his alpha dog contract. I am following a protocol of strict separation now -- when Fly is out, Jett is crated, and vice versa. We all go for walks together and play ball together, and they go out into the yard together (with me watching closely), and there are no problems at those times. I am hoping that when Jett is done being in season and is no longer in the thrall of her hormones the situation will resolve itself, but in the meantime, I know that this is a very common issue when bitches live together and one is reaching the age of social maturity. I have no plans to breed Jett, but I did not want to spay her until she was at least two and physically quite mature. At any rate, my understanding is that spaying does nothing to ameliorate interbitch aggression and may even make it worse, so although I think it is not a coincidence that the situation has escalated while Jett is in season, I don't think it is something that is "caused" by being intact. However, I could be wrong about that. As I know this is a common issue that many of you have dealt with, I welcome any insights and advice. Thanks! I just kept my dogs separated. It was a real pain to do that but was easier than trying to keep them from killing each other. My two are getting on really well right now. I sure hope that doesn't change. Mine were both spayed and they still fought. Molly always started it and she always lost. But that never stopped her from starting it again the next time. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Melanie, Is there a lip curl, a growl or a snarl that Jett exhibits before she flies off the handle? I find that when Skye reacts to another (almost exclusively over guarding issues, and 99% of the time with another female), there is a subtle sign. At this point I can usually defuse the situation. Then again, this might not be as easy with an adolescent It also occurs to me that Jett is picking on Fly because she can. Of course, that doesn't help you unless you can convince her to defend herself. Has she ever been put in her place by another dog, esp in Fly's presence? I found that my dogs were a lot less likely to start a fight after they had experienced being on the losing end. To this day, Skye defers to GSDs after being tackled by one. If only Solo would referee. Sounds like he could keep the peace Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 If spaying helps, then I don't know to what extent. I've got 6 bitches in the house -- two rescues and 4 are mine. All are spayed, and all but one don't mind engaging in a knock down drag out every so often. The two I have to watch most are Maggie & Sea -- who are related, BTW, and FWIW, other dogs related to them appear to have the same tendencies to never turn down a brawl when faced with it. Vigilence is a way of life around here. I'm almost always conscious of body language and I put a stop to posturing and break eye contact immediately. If a fight does break out, I'll send both to time outs in their crates. Usually a "What're you doing!" or "SHAME on you!" does the job. They skulk off at those words, knowing I'm really disgusted with their behavior, but they've learned what can follow those words too, so they sit up and take notice when they hear those words from one pissed off owner. So, I guess if you're going to live with it, then prevention and vigilence is the key. The intensity Jett's showing in jumping Fly might fade after her first heat and some more maturity. In the meantime, if it were me, I'd by hypervigilent. Poor Fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengdroma Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I studied Canine Psychology and I would have to ask this question from the outset. Who is the Alpha dog? Many people assume that it should be the older dog and will ignore the fact that the younger dog is now the Alpha Bitch. Jett to me is Alpha. Normally the other dog respects that which it appears that Fly is doing. However is there anything no matter how small or seemingly insignificant that you as owners could be doing that is accidently rasing Fly's status in Jett's eyes? Do you look at Fly first or angle your body in a way that elevates Fly during what Jett sees as a special moment - feeding time etc Does Fly still occupy the best sleeping place in your bedroom? Could you remove both the dogs from your bedroom as you are raising their status by allowing them in your Alpha Den. Bitch on bitch fights are serious and need to be nipped in the bud - we were taught that a bitch will eventually fight to the death but a dog will not. Sorry to sound as if I am dictating etc I do not mean to but sometimes the little things that we do are the problem not the animal itself. I have seen too many dogs in my life time get destroyed due to owner error. John Fisher has some excellent books on the subject and so does Roger Mugford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Honestly with bitch-bitch problems I don't think "alpha" has much to do with it. If it did, appeasement signals and submissive postures would end the fight, but in most cases it doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amc Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Melanie, I feel your pain. We have always had mostly bitches and they are bitchy!! I bear a permanent scar on my arm from breaking up a bitch fight between Peggy and Sally years ago. Now it's Jill and Marti and Marti and Jean. I can manage Marti and Jean because they are not deadly serious, but Jill is climbing the status ladder and she IS serious. I agree with all that's been said before, and will add another tip: watch them for Stink Eye. This can be very subtle and can foreshadow an attack by minutes to hours. We are careful not to let ANY of our dogs eye up another when one is crated (or both for that matter). One of the worst Peggy/Sally fights ever occured after they had been crated side-by-side in a pickup all night, presumably trash-talking to each other for hours.... Separation and vigilance are the rules here, and yes, if someone is in season the emotions really do escalate. Good luck! Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krambambuli Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Sky too has issues with female dogs, which makes me think it would probably not be fun to have one come live with us. My niece has a female hound mix, Chloe. Chloe is 2x as tall and heavy as Sky, and very much in her face as soon as we get there. I think at first it's out of joy, but because she doesn't give Sky a chance to even get in the house, and either does not understand or ignores Sky's attempts to let her know to stay away, we've had a small fight on our hands right away several times. Now I ask my niece to crate her dog until we have settled down, and until Sky is less anxious. We still have to really watch them, though. They might play well one minute and the next, boom. When Chloe was still a puppy none of that happened. Sky is about 1 year older. They were about the same size then. I don't know if that matters. Chloe is a very overwhelming presence. They were both spayed, by the way, before they ever met. Neither of them will back down if they do fight. For as timid as Sky usually is, no amount of yelling, screaming, shushing, pulling her away etc., seems to make an impression on her, very similiar to what you describe with Jett. There seems to be an amount of "hatred" there (once she gets pushed enough) that puts her into a state where I can't reach her. I don't like it! I feel for Fly and for you. It seemed like you had a happy situation until now, 3 dogs getting along fine. So this must be frustrating. From other people's responses I take it that this is very common. I'm not sure I could deal with it very well .... I've been thinking on and off about adding another dog to our family, but I'm starting to think that I could end up with serious regrets. Sky does get along much better with males, but even there she is very picky. I hope that Jett will calm down and feel less need to assert herself as she matures. I thought Ailsa's response was very insightful, that Jett picks on Fly simply because she can. Would wearing a soft muzzle help as an interim solution maybe? Has anyone tried that? I also wonder if keeping them apart makes Jett even more determined to go after Fly when they are out together?? It's a bit of a catch-22. Let's hope for the best, though! Maybe it is just the hormones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I agree with all that's been said before, and will add another tip: watch them for Stink Eye. This can be very subtle and can foreshadow an attack by minutes to hours. We are careful not to let ANY of our dogs eye up another when one is crated (or both for that matter). One of the worst Peggy/Sally fights ever occured after they had been crated side-by-side in a pickup all night, presumably trash-talking to each other for hours.... This is interesting and possibly answers the question of why two of my male dogs used to fight. They would be seemingly fine then a fight would break out. I would blame Seth even though he always lost the fight. He would be the one throwing the first punch but Mike always was the victor with the fight ending with Seth on his back and Mike's mouth on his throat. They never broke skin no matter how bad it sounded. Once my daughter called (she was a young teen at the time) and said they would not stop fighting even after she doused them with water and threw a crate at them. Meg doesn't allow fighting or intimidation of any other dog in her pack, and when she tried to stop the fight she got bit. Mike and Seth didn't have a scratch on them however. I wonder now if Mike had been giving Seth the "Stink eye?" They get along fine now even though they still don't really care for each other. I had Mike neutered years ago and that may have played some part in it. Seth can just be a jerk sometimes though. I don't have any experience with bitch fights except stories from my sister about her female dogs. They would fight to the death and leave a bloody mess with each other. Not often and in between fights they loved each other and got along great. Good luck Melanie, I know how hard it is having to keep a watchful eye out for imminent fights. I hated when I had to separate my dogs and keep an eye out all the time in case one was in a pissy mood. Hopefully your problem will get better once Jett is out of heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 The cues preceding a fight could be subtle, but they are there, from the eye, a hardening of the expression, posture. You can't miss them if you watch. Joe, one of my males, who thinks he's a tough guy --- and he is --- related to Sea & Maggie, BTW, is a dog that other males can't stand. I stood back and watched him one time, to see what it is about him that sets off other dogs. Sure enough. He'd starts with his head lowered, from a distance, and applies the stare. It used to be that he'd then charge the other dog. He knows better now (we've had "words"), but now, Joe will run past the other male, head lowered, hair up on his back. Joe's cues aren't so subtle, but I break it off as soon as I see the beginning of a possible agitation. His uncle, Tam, BTW, has much sublter cues. They know the phrase "What are you looking at!" and "mind your own business" --- they will avert their eyes. I'm hoping what you have is an obnoxious adolescent mentality exacerbated by hormones and once she matures and is out of season, this won't be an issue anymore. There might be "words", but not the drive to take out the older dog. Let's hope. Living with a brawler is not easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 " They have also occurred in the garage, when I have let the dogs out of the car and no resources of any kind are in the vicinity." Melanie, Is this occuring just before, while, or after exiting the auto? If so, this could be resource guarding. Some dogs do like to resource guard those doorways, and I would think the car exit/entrance would be very valuable to some dogs. "Jett will fly across the room to jump Fly, who is invariably just sitting there minding her own business. Fly never fights back and indeed does everything caninely possible to submit to Jett, to no avail, which is why her wounds are on her underside. Jett latches on and will not let go. She is not deterred by yelling, throwing things, or even being physically pulled off of Fly and will remain latched on to whatever part of Fly she has a hold of. I have even essentially alpha-rolled her -- not on purpose exactly but because on one occasion I actually had to tackle her and squash her to the floor to keep her from going after Fly again. " This is very frightening. Do you have Dr Overall's book "Clincal Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals"? This has a lot of helpful information. Dr Patricia McConnell's booklet "Feeling Outnumbered, How to Manage and Enjoy Your Multi-Dog Household" has some helpful info. I had a similar problem with my 2 male dogs- Standard Poodle and Border collie. My poodle is definately the alpha dog, and my Border collie is very submissive. At the expense of being anthropromorphic, I think the poodle got a sense of power by bullying the underdog. I learned to identify and defuse subtle behavior. For instance, the poodle was preventing the Border collie from coming into rooms. This was very, very subtle, just a small glance and Freeman (BC) would turn around and leave the room. So in short, I became aware of this subtle behavior. Fortunately their fights were mostly noise. Although it did sound very vicious, there was rarely any damage. Freeman would ususally be covered in slobber, but that was about it. Freeman is now 4, and they've seemed to have worked out their issues (fingers still crossed). Inter-bitch aggression can be tough to work out, so best of luck with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Thanks guys -- insights much appreciated. Yes, I have caught Jett giving Fly a hard stare and nailed her for it on numerous occasions and been able to nip it in the bud. In fact, once I've caught Jett she will very carefully do that "I'm not looking at her" thing (head way up and turned away from Fly), which is somewhat amusing. But Jett is very fast, faster than I am, and I can't watch her all the time which is why they are being separated now. My husband isn't as attuned to dog language so he doesn't really see the stink eye. Poor Fly, who is a total wuss in every context, never fights back at all. I would say this of very, very few dogs, but I really think that if you stuck Fly in a padded room with a dozen toddlers and let them abuse her for hours, she would do absolutely nothing to defend herself. She doesn't stand a chance against Jett. Fly outweighs Jett by about eight pounds and would probably have the advantage if she did fight back, but it just isn't in her. Part of it might be that Fly is old (and I think that's part of the reason that Jett thinks Fly is an easy target) but most of it is just that Fly is sweet and harmless and not the sharpest tool in the shed. Jett defers absolutely to Solo. In fact, the swiftest way to defuse Jett's anger after pulling her off of Fly is to drag her over to Solo, which makes her very cowed, even though Solo doesn't really react other than maybe sniffing Jett. (Oddly, he doesn't seem interested in Jett at all while she is in season, which is quite the contrast to what used to happen when Fly went into season. I guess he's getting old and tired.) Solo was remarkably tolerant of Jett when she was a pup, but he did pummel her a couple of times for puppy obnoxiousness when she was very small, once because she actually ran right over his head while he was lying on the floor. Ever since then, she has had a very healthy respect for him, staying completely out of his way, and responding to very subtle cues when they are interacting with each other. All he has to do is give her that sideways look and she immediately retreats and grovels. He could end these fights between Jett and Fly immediately if he wanted to, but he just doesn't seem to care much if they kill each other. Other than Solo and Fly, Jett socializes only rarely with other dogs and only for brief periods when she does. I would not say she cares much for dogs she does not know, but neither does Fly. Solo is definitely the top dog of my three, and the fact that the top dog doesn't quite have all his shit together probably doesn't help. That said, it doesn't sound like this is something that more socialization or a different social structure would fix, unless the dog in Solo's position were in a mood to intervene and my guess is that supervisory dogs who do intervene in interpack battles are the exception, and not the rule. Thanks again for the advice -- I'll let you know how things go. It's not that big a deal to me if they can't be out together in the house, as it is easy to keep them separated. If it were to the point that they could not walk or hike together or play ball together (which they can) I'd be much more worried. Jett's been in season for about two weeks so hopefully things will calm down soon. ETA: Yes, I do have Karen's book (Karen is Solo's behaviorist and my former colleague). I am kind of worried that this situation conforms to the second scenario she presents, which is that the young dog is trying to take the older dog out. The situation seems to be exacerbated by giving Jett more privileges, so I have been keeping them separated to be on the safe side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Coming late to this, but I agree that separation is key. I've had spayed females who don't get along and haven't for years. They do mostly stink eye type stuff in the house, but I make a point of never leaving one crated and one out if the one out can gain access to the crate the other dog is in (that is they're either crated in separate rooms or crated in the same room but in such a way that they can't see each other, and if for some reason one is out and the other is crated, the free dog is blocked from access to the crated dog by a baby gate that's far enough away that they can't even eye each other). When Twist came "of age" she started joining in the snarlfests, and I'm sure it's because Jill and Willow are old and Twist was young and in her prime and ready to take over. I had trouble between Raven and Jill for what I'm sure was the same reason. Raven sensed a weakness in Jill and sought to exploit it. Interestingly she never, ever challenged Willow. FWIW, I can still walk all mine together, although we do get the occasional "fly by," but nothing that can't be sorted out with a sharp verbal correction from me. Solo's just showing his smarts by not getting in the middle of two bitches fighting. My cat JellyBean isn't so smart, as whenever Raven and Phoebe fought in his presence, he jumped right in and tried to end things (and cat claws do have a way of getting a dog's attention). (Note: I was usually intervening by that point, so JB wasn't in any danger.) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Totally off the wall, but I've seen it cause hiarcy issues, health changes. I'd be considering having Fly's health checked just in case Jett is picking up on something and using it as a trigger to try to drive the member of the pack that is weak out of the pack. I had that with our group, old Amber started getting picked on by the other females, after a couple of months I could smell a change in her breath. My thought is that the other dogs picked up on it before I was able to. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 My pack used to be 2 males and 2 females. The females were aunt and niece, the aunt being the younger of the two (from a repeat breeding). The niece was very dog neutral but no pushover. She wouldn't start fights but would finish them if she felt she had been offended. The aunt was always, from day one, a social climber and a bitch who couldn't let anything go. I didn't tolerate anything from her. Absolutely nothing. No stink eye, no posturing, no lip lifting and no protecting ANY resource. Outside or working she was fine. Inside the house I never could relax around her or let her earn privileges as she got older because she took it the wrong way. She was a NILIF dog at all times. She did not get worse when she was in heat, with her it was constant. In the evenings when I wanted to relax I would put the niece away first and let the aunt see me to do it, then I would put her away in a different room. They took turns being out when I was unable or unwilling to monitor them closely. I don't think it is odd that Solo doesn't show interest in Jett when she is in heat. My dogs have clear preferences as to their "mate" choice. Flyboy never showed the slightest interest in Freya when she was intact. Freya's choice mate was Duncan and they were a bonded pair (even though Duncan was neutered long before I got Freya). I think that Flyboy understood their relationship and respected it. Likewise, Duncan, despite being a ladies man, only showed mild interest in Luna when she was in heat. Duncan was not her choice and she ignored him and flirted with my friend's Aussie mix instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houndstooth Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I have an 8 yr. old bitch (who is actually an aunt to Jett) who has the same behavior. However with her, it has nothing to do with bitch on bitch, rather she attacks dogs that are submissive/passive. Her current favorite victim of my dogs is my 5 yr. old Toss (male), who sounds very similar to Fly. He never even defends himself, let alone fights back, and I'm quite sure he does nothing to incite her - other than to exist. Basically, she will attack dogs that she thinks she can get away with it with. When I got my now 3 yr. old Taff at 5 mos., she attacked him. He gave back as good as he got, and she's left him alone since. I've found no solution other than management. She is always crated in the house, and I supervise closely outside. For her, the primary triggers are dooways, gateways, and smallish areas. I always keep myself between her and Toss, and warn her off when I see her giving him a hard look. Once she attacks, she has to be physically removed and carried away (fortunately she only weighs about 30 lbs.!), as nothing else will stop her. BTW, she started with it at 7 wks., when she attacked my mom's old (male) JRT. At 4 mos. she attacked the old (male) GP that lived at the farm where I was working. She also hates my 14 yr. old bitch Dot, although only attacks when Dot is under the weather. She has no issues at all with my 6 yr. old bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I have had to deal with this, sad to say, and based on what I learned: 1. I would separate them now until Jett's season is totally over. Separate them where they can't see each other, and don't let them out together even outdoors. After Jett's season is over, the first thing I would do with them together is take them on a walk (leashed). There's something about making forward progress together and smelling interesting things that seems to restore comradeship. 2. I would separate them next time Jett comes in before anything happens, and keep them totally separate during her season. Spaying probably won't fix it from happening, but coming into season is definitely a trigger. They are always more touchy toward other bitches then. 3. I would not yell or holler or throw things when they are fighting. Sometimes early on it seems to work, but I came to feel it only fuels the raging passions and eggs them on. If I saw prickliness develop, I would say "Everybody be nice to everybody else" (or some catchphrase like that) in a pleasant voice and distract them or divert them, and then quietly separate them into crates (preferably not in sight of each other) if it appears they're not totally diverted. If the fight had already started I would proceed as silently as possible to break it up. Sometimes there will come a moment of equilibrium, where if you read it right you can quietly call one of them off (Jett, in your case). Sometimes not. The main thing about friction between two bitches in the same household is that it can escalate like you wouldn't believe, so don't take half measures. It's easy to think, "They never fight when we're doing X," but all that really means is they haven't yet fought when doing X. While they're around each other in this frame of mind, their grievances grow and multiply. Separate them sooner rather than later, and longer rather than shorter. I wish you the best of luck with this. It's the hardest thing dog-wise I've ever had to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 We have two males in a situation that is similar in some ways, and we are also keeping them strictly separate except when working with them specifically on being together (this is mostly so that we have some strategies in place for cases where for one reason or another the strict separation doesn't work). Things between them have escalated some over the last few months (as folks here had predicted they might when I asked about it a year or so ago) and the places where we used to be able to have them loose together are no longer reliably safe. One of them is off for training at the moment and the difference in the general tension level is quite noticeable--both for us and the other dogs. At this point, we don't want to rehome either of them, so we're going to work with the strict separation, but it really is quite a difference in how our routine goes with the whole pack. What has been interesting to me (when I can reflect on it) is the behavior of our other dogs--if a fight starts when the others are around, two of them take off for the hills and the other two gang up on one of the fighters (always the same one--the one who is the hard starer). The hard starer can be called off if he's not being directly attacked, but the other one is like a ravaging wildebeast once he's engaged. Sorry to hear you're having to deal with it and good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I'm dealing with it too. Our last big blow up cost over $300 for the emergency vet and poor old Sam is now known as Frankensammy. Her scars run in to each other from previous altercations. The girls are now separated at all times. The see each other only for walks when each can be walked by a separate person. Kaos is on Clomicalm and we are continuing her behavioural modifications but I don't really forsee any success. She is who she is and it is actually much less stressful to have them separated at all times rather than going through my day half a$$ed because I always have my eye on them. I feel for you and wish you luck. It sucks and it doesn't do any good laying blame. Love them for what who and what they are and try to avoid the triggers. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Second what Eileen said. The heat is likely the trigger, but animosities between the two because of that can definately carry over into anestrus. Fully seperate them and after Jett is fully into anestrus, about 3 months post the start of this heat, I would spay her. If she's had 2 heats she's mature enough and you planned too anyway. I wouldn't worry about changes for the worse because of a spay in this instance. It's pretty obvious by her pattern that she's fine when she's not in heat. She may have hormonal imbalances - who knows? It's definately not common to this degree. Some mares are the same way and spaying is a total cure. At least it's less complicated in a dog! I would also be carefully observant of Fly's health. It's not uncommen for a health change to double up the trigger a pack coup. The males as you noticed, will not interfere with that sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Eileen is so right on here. Calmness is huge, huge. It sends the message that you are in control still - the dogs may not seem to "hear" you if things are escalating, but the pathways will be laid down in their brains for later training. Hormones are most likely the trigger but by separating now you can break the cycle and not allow them to get into a pattern of behavior you'll regret later. A little trouble now will go a long way. Make sure hubby understands this too. Pretend they have a deadly illness called "Can't See Each Other Disease." They can't be crated where Jett can harass Fly via stink eye, either. Not the tiniest little eyehole. Afterwards just make sure they have lots of space. Take Fly for a checkup if you haven't recently (check thyroid in particular, complete panel). Watch that stink eye and use your cue on Jett that you want her to cut it out. Mine is, "Excuse me!" That's a warning. If I still see eyeballs, the troublemaker goes to the crate. It's super important, I feel, when I take a dog to the crate for a time out, that we go very happily - I smile and cheerfully tell the dog how sorry I am that he or she screwed up. I've done this even after a dog has bitten or tried to bite me. I disagree that Jett is alpha. I see this sort of thing fitting more in Patricia McConnell's description of an uneasy opportunistic resource-grabber. If you watch really carefully, you might spot the trigger - or you might not, it honestly doesn't matter in working with it. Don't be too nervous that she's going to grow up to be evil. In fact I seriously doubt it - I mean, not any worse than your average Border Collie bitch. If you feel in any way nervous about whether you can keep a handle on things during this time, use a light drag line on Jett, even in the house (not in the crate of course) - way better safe than sorry. Since you've already had to be rather tough on her, this will allow you to keep things upbeat if you are just following through on "Sorry, you are going to your crate now!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Argh! I took the dogs to work with me today (they are crated in the car, and I walk them after lunch on campus) and carefully kept them separated when I got home. I let Jett and Solo into the yard from the front, and took Fly into the house with me. Then I put Jett in the x-pen on the deck and let Fly out into the yard to relieve herself. Once Fly was well out into the yard, I went to get Jett out of the x-pen and bring her inside -- the back door is literally three feet from the x-pen. Jett gave every indication of coming inside with me and then whirled to go after Fly instead. I called her, and I swear she stopped and turned her head back toward me and then gave me the finger and attacked Fly anyway. Jett is at this moment banished to her crate in the car, which is as separate as I can possibly make her. Poor Fly has a huge bruise on her chest from where Jett latched on and wouldn't let go. Obviously my skills at keeping them separated are a work in progress. Given the more recent posts it sounds like I shouldn't even be bringing them to work on the same days since they are crated next to each other in the car. For all I know, Jett has been hurling insults at Fly all afternoon. All three dogs just went to the vet last month. Fly got a full serious of senior health tests and also had two broken teeth removed (upper fourth premolars on both sides) as well as a dental cleaning and is as close to being physically tuned-up as a dog her age can get. She is not sick, she is just matronly, and a total wuss. Jett is a brat. Fly actually just lies there while Jett attacks her, screaming for help, but doing nothing at all to defend herself. Fly's utter capitulation makes no impression on Jett whatsoever. I am worried. Because the frequency of attacks escalated slowly, and appeared to be isolated incidents at first, this has been going on for over two weeks. I know that practice makes perfect when it comes to problematic behavior (hello Solo) and Jett has had a chance to practice "Kill Fly" several times now. Fly, luckily, appears to recover emotionally almost immediately and is the same happy, sweet, dumb dog she always is and does not even appear to be particularly worried about Jett (did I mention that Fly is not the sharpest tool in the shed?). I would be willing to lay partial blame at Fly's feet if she were doing ANYTHING to provoke this, including being dumb, or obsequious, but she really isn't. She's just there, and easy to pick on. Today's attack is the first one other than the garage attack that appeared to have nothing to do with resources increasing the tension in the vicinity. Most of the attacks have -- for example, the other day my husband was smoking trout so there were luscious fish smells all over the place -- but this time the purpose appeared to be explicitly "Kill Fly." I will inform my husband of the extreme strict separation rules. I know he will not mind following them because I think he likes the idea of only having one dog out at a time. It'll certainly make the household much quieter. If they get into it again I'll try to remain calm like Eileen and Becca advised. The "Wrath of God" approach clearly isn't working anyway. Thanks again guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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