Root Beer Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Write this date down--I agree with you. J. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Julie, I also agree with you. That is why we have our dogs; to spoil them. My DH's Aussie is 11 and she adores him but sometimes she gets the couch! N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Write this date down--I agree with you. J. Me 2! Personally, the only reason I would teach a dog to not jump on me, was because if I allow him to jump on me, he thinks he can jump on anyone else. Which is true, they do, and there are folks that just dont care to be jumped on. Go figure! Years ago, I was hanging out with a bunch of older gentleman handlers and I had a 14 week old pup of mine running around in the mix. We had all sat down in our un comfortable lawn chairs to sip some coffee and warm up a bit by a fire barrel. My cute sweet little 14 week old pup made the mistake of jumping up and putting her feet on a fella that was there, and got thumped but good for it. No words, no warning, and nothing said afterwards, just thumped and that was that. It certinly made an impact on her, and whether I liked it or not, I felt he was correct in what he'd done and that I was the bad person that should have taught my pup better earlier that jumping on folks was unacceptable behavior. It never dawned on me then, nor does it hold any truth for me now that my dog respects me less if I allow it to put its feet on me, it does however teach a dog to respect ones personal space, and keeps them safe from those that would thump a cheeky puppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I'm glad you said that Root Beer because one of the things I didn't mention was chewing. Judi and I have opposite views. She doesn't want to be a chew toy. I don't mind if he does it occasionally. Face chewing is another thing. The dogs do it to each other and I do it to the dogs, softly on their jowls, nose, ears, back of the neck even a tail chomp now and then.Mookie makes contented noises Jin half chews back both seem to be calm and happy. The only real diff between them is Mookie hates having her tail played with while Jin doesn't mind. Does that help achieve the goal of getting a dogs respect. I'll bet there are both yes and no answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somewhereinusa Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I'm pretty new at this, only been 30 or so years now, but I'm a bit confused. If you don't give a correction how is a dog to know what is unacceptable? What do you consider a correction? A no or a growl is pretty much it with me. I prefer dogs that I have raised, because they have been taught "how to learn"."no" is not the end of the world, it means"that's not what I want,try something else" if the new action is what I want a "good dog" is plenty of reward for a Border Collie.The real reward is getting to keep working, remember, the word "workaholic" in a dictionary has a picture of a Border Collie. How do you give a treat when the dog is 500 feet away from you? My circumstances,training methods and life has changed a lot in 30 years, my dogs now spend long hours and many miles in a truck, but both dogs have been walking off leash, even in busy truck stops since they were about 6 months old. If I shout the word "no" which is the only time I raise my voice to them, that is the end of the world and they will stop dead in their tracks. New situations can and do arise all of the time, if there has never been a correction,done properly and at the right time, how do you handle this? Truck stops are noisy places, when they are off trying to find a suitable place to be discreet, they will keep checking in for the hand signal to come back. Is this respect? I like to think so, it's not something I consciously taught them. Would a dog that didn't respect me do that? When working livestock my dogs know that I'm not just going to stand there and ask them to do something alone if help is needed. They know that if help is needed, it's there, without them having to ask. Well, maybe Chip, who liked to bring in what was basically wild hogs, but he didn't need any help with that anyway. Do I have the respect of my dogs? I certainly hope so. Do I respect my dogs? YES. I have no doubt that any of my dogs would do anything that they were capable of doing for me if I get the idea of what that is to them. And, by the way I do give them treats, not because they have done something for me, but because they like them. And I enjoy that enjoyment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I decided to sleep on this Respect topic and really mull through it before I posted. As I put more thought into it I came to the conclusion that Respect is a broad term for many different conditions, simular to balance. Thinking about Amelia's post, she gives good suggestions as to where dogs fail at respecting our space, or in the case of a dog pulling on us after they have been taught to walk properly on a leash, disrespecting our leadership. I consider a leash as a communication tool vs. a restraint, if the dog is pulling against me the communication is one way, one way communitcation is not respectful, on the dogs behalf, but I also feel that we can be disrespectful in the same way by making demands via the leash vs. using it as a tool to show the dog where it should be, basically not using the leash as a communication tool ourselves. By dragging the dog around we don't give the dog the opportunity to decide to come with us. It's when that dog is with us by choice, because they look to us as their portal to our world that we start building a relationship with them. Something that came to mind the other day, there is difference between commanding respect and demanding respect, I can demand respect from a dog, they will honor my space and be with me because I demanded it, but it's not the same as if I command respect. If you think of a teacher that commands respect, their students just offer their respect and usually are surrounded by their students after hours the one that demands respect has students that are a bit fearful to disrespect and really aren't interested in being with the teacher on their own, being there because they have to vs. want to. I want my dogs to want to be with me, because they look to me for the answers and have faith in my leadership. I've been really seeing it with my pups that are approaching a year old, early on I required that they respect my space and respect the leash, I taught them how to learn and that they could not disregard me. I don't think they had the capacity to really respect me as a leader/teacher until they could begin to process cause and effect. This has just begun on livestock, the other day I had them out individually on sheep and I was able to communicate with them, not just by me giving them commands and them obeying, but by them looking over to me, asking if they were right, trying hard to read my body posture for approval, at first I thought they were trying to rely on my body position for the answers but it was not that, they wanted to be right and were checking in. I made sure that I communicated back, that they were ok, it does not take much, just a relax of you posture or a rock back and you could see them get the affirmation they were looking for. Another place I saw respect was with Vicki yesterday, at first she was not interested in my interests only her own, I did some basic space respect excersises with her, move off my pressure and used a cord to demand that she was receptive to my wishes or factor me in. As she began to be open to hearing me I could then show her that I was not going accept what ever she offers, pretty soon she started to try to be right, I then made sure that I communicated back when she checked in, once we got to that point a partnership began to form. At this point she's not correct in all of her methods, but she is trying to do what I ask. This relationship carried over into the house, yesterday she just wanted to go back to her crate after turnout in the morning, this morning she wants to be with me. Right now she is laying on my left side, earlier she was sitting there with her head over my leg, not leaning on it, but there as close as she could be without leaning on me, once I gave her my approval she layed down there. We have to be careful when a dog opens themselves to us, the other day Jake came out like a flood, typically he is very reserved, very pressure sensitive and takes things very personally. When working with him I had a communication break through and he began to want to execute what I asked, it was like a change from doing it because I said to, to doing it because what I said was what he wanted to do. When we came in the house he was overzealous and ran past me ran to me and jumped up on me. I didn't correct him but rather stroked him under the chin, it was totally out of charecter for him. I'm really glad I did not correct that indiscretion, it has not happened again but now he's looking to me differently both in the house and out working, he has a new confidence. If I give him a command and he's uncertain he asks for support, if he really wants to do something different then my command, rather then blowing off on his own agenda he checks in to confirm that I really want something other then he thinks is needed at that time. I'm being careful not to squash that willingness to communicate that he is exhibiting, I feel like I have finally earned his respect and it's very fragile at this time, if I shut him out he's going to shut me out. Sorry to ramble, but I wanted to point out that getting respect from your dog while working does not come until you become the teacher, in cases where you allow the dog to lead beleiving that the dog knows more then you, you lose the respect of the dog. Why would the dog listen to you or look to you for leadership when he thinks he knows more then you? If your uncertain and lack conviction your going to be a poor leader and the dogs just not going to bother to factor you in. I hope this all made sense, but to me there is more to "Respect" then meets the eye, to demand respect is easy, to command respect is an art rooted in two way communication. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I'm pretty new at this, only been 30 or so years now, but I'm a bit confused. If you don't give a correction how is a dog to know what is unacceptable? Sorry to use a really lame saying, but it really is true that there is always more than one way to "skin a cat". In other words, it is extremely rare that there is one and only one way to go about doing something. Name any dog behavior that someone might consider "wrong" in a given circumstance, and there is always another circumstance where the same exact behavior is "right". Maybe not to you personally, but to someone. For instance, it is "right" for my dogs to put their paws up on me when they greet me with hugs when I come home, and when I cue them to do so for Freestyle moves, games, and tricks. When under stimulus control, paws up is a highly valued behavior to me. Even growling at a person is "right" in some circumstances. Say someone broke into your home and intended you serious bodily harm. If your dog came up and directed a menacing growl at that person and scared them off, would you "correct" the dog for "wrong" behavior? Most people wouldn't!! I'd probably feed the dog a steak after that! Therefore, I don't think of dog behavior in terms of "right" and "wrong", or "acceptable" and "unacceptable". I think in terms of what specific manners and behaviors I want my dogs to have and then I teach the dog what I want. I don't think in terms of "no counter surfing", "no tearing up books", "no peeing on the floor", "no hurling yourself at the door". Instead, I think in terms of, "four on the floor in the kitchen", "tear up your own toys", "pee in the dog yard", "wait with four on the floor at the door". Also, "Come when called", "eat out of your own bowl when you are realeased to it", "etc." I don't consider an instance where an untrained dog behaves in a manner that I hope to change through training any more "unacceptable" than I would consider it "unacceptable" for someone from another country to speak a different language. It is my job to teach the dog what I want. Until I have done that I don't expect the dog to know it. Once a dog is trained, then the picture changes. And lest anyone think that this means that my dogs run around doing whatever they want and there is no structure, I'll be clear! There are rules for my dogs in my home and there is structure, and my dogs understand those and live by them. OK, they aren't perfect 100% of the time, but honestly, neither am I! And, to stay on topic (since this isn't really a discussion of corrections per se), I have found through my own experiences that this approach has, in fact, fostered a very deep and profound respect in my dogs. What do you consider a correction? I consider a correction any word, sound, gesture, action, etc., that is intended to attempt to teach a dog not to do something specific. Let me be clear - this is not a universal definition, by any means. In technical behavior terms, I would consider any positive punisher or negative reinforcer to be a "correction", but I really want to talk in plain talk right now, so my working definition will be the one I wrote above this!! So, for example, when we adopted Dean, he didn't know that he wasn't supposed to dive into food bowls as food was being prepared and put down for the other dogs. To teach him to eat from his own bowl, he was placed in a bedroom while food was prepared for the other dogs and put down. He ate his meal in a separate room and he learned to carry out behaviors to earn his meal. Through doing this, he learned that the bowl belonged to me until the food was given to him. After doing this for a bit, he knew to wait for his bowl to be put down and to eat only from that, and he was able to join the other dogs in the main eating room. Had I set him up to be "wrong" and somehow conveyed to him "no" whenever he did what I didn't want, I would have considered that use of a correction. My preference is to teach the dog what I do want, and I find that it works extremely well. A no or a growl is pretty much it with me. My dogs understand the word "no" and I use it with them when they get to the point where they understand what I want. I use "no" with dogs much as I use it with people. If I am leaving for a training class and I am taking Speedy and Maddie runs to the door in hopes of going, I will say, "no Maddie, not today", and she knows that she is not going and she heads into the bedroom. I don't use "no" or an equivalent when I am teaching a dog something specific, but to communicate that something is not going to happen or that I am not going to give the dog something that he or she wants (outside of training), I will say no and they understand that. It's my personal preference not to growl at my dogs. I'm not a dog - they know that. I'd feel really silly growling at them and I would probably end up laughing. I prefer dogs that I have raised, because they have been taught "how to learn". So do I. In fact, the first thing I do with a new dog, aside from meeting basic needs, is to start teaching the dog how to learn. Before we begin training, my dogs need to understand what a reward or reinforcer means. What a click means. How to think through the learning process. How to understand what I want and how to get me to understand what he or she needs. Incorporation of corrections into training is not a requirement of teaching a dog how to learn. There are many ways to learn. I use a different (and effective) way of teaching a dog to learn. "no" is not the end of the world, it means"that's not what I want,try something else" if the new action is what I want a "good dog" is plenty of reward for a Border Collie. So, if "no" can be used to communicate "try something else", why couldn't another way of communicating "try something else" be equally effective? In reinforcement based training, "try something else" is communicated to the dog through other means. How do you give a treat when the dog is 500 feet away from you? The dog would not be 500 feet away in most of the training that I do. The only thing I can think of that might be done from that distance is an abnormally long distance stay or a recall. For the 500 foot stay, a click would mark the behavior and the dog would get the reward when I return to the dog or he returns to me. For the recall, the reward would be given when the dog returns. (OK, now I have to try a 500 foot sit stay sometime!!) Converesely, allowing the dog to "keep working" is a little bit difficult to communicate when the dog has finally nailed a correct weave pole entry, or has moved particularly nicely in heel to the beat of the music, or has chewed on a bone instead of a roll of paper towels. It is true that with the Border Collie drive, there are times when continuing the activity is reward enough for something, but in the early stages of learning, that can be a tough idea to convey. but both dogs have been walking off leash, even in busy truck stops since they were about 6 months old. If I shout the word "no" which is the only time I raise my voice to them, that is the end of the world and they will stop dead in their tracks. New situations can and do arise all of the time, if there has never been a correction,done properly and at the right time, how do you handle this? I've never met a dog who didn't understand what a raised voice means by default. Even though I don't train my dogs with corrections, they understand tone of voice perfectly. If my husband or I were to raise a voice and should "no" or "wait", our dogs understand. I do not consider those rare shouted directives as "corrections". If I am riding in a car and I see something in the road that the driver doesn't see and I should "look out!", I'm not giving the driver a correction! Same with needing to shout in a dangerous situation with a dog. Even though my dogs aren't trained with corrections and I rarely yell at them, on the rare occasions when I do, they understand completely. Truck stops are noisy places, when they are off trying to find a suitable place to be discreet, they will keep checking in for the hand signal to come back. Is this respect? I like to think so, it's not something I consciously taught them. Would a dog that didn't respect me do that? That's definitely a respectful behavior - I'm not arguing that. I don't think, however, that fact demonstrates that such a measure of respect is only acheivable through corrections. When working livestock my dogs know that I'm not just going to stand there and ask them to do something alone if help is needed. They know that if help is needed, it's there, without them having to ask. And my dogs know the same thing when we are doing Agility or Freestyle, or are just hiking or hanging out together. Do I have the respect of my dogs? I certainly hope so. Do I respect my dogs? YES. I have no doubt that any of my dogs would do anything that they were capable of doing for me if I get the idea of what that is to them. And, by the way I do give them treats, not because they have done something for me, but because they like them. And I enjoy that enjoyment. And I would not dispute that your dogs respect you - any more than I would expect that you (or anyone) would say that I don't have the respect of my dogs even though I choose to teach them in ways that are different from the ones that you have chosen. I give my dogs treats "just because", too. The fact that I use treats as a tool in training doesn't mean that they don't get their fair share of freebies - just because they like them. I enjoy that, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I'm pretty new at this, only been 30 or so years now, but I'm a bit confused. If you don't give a correction how is a dog to know what is unacceptable? What do you consider a correction? A no or a growl is pretty much it with me. I prefer dogs that I have raised, because they have been taught "how to learn"."no" is not the end of the world, it means"that's not what I want,try something else" I am WAY new at this, I am absolutely sure you know loads more than me about dogs - but about the correction thing it's just a different way of looking at things. I used to teach, so I see it this way - some students did terribly with "corrections" (i.e. points off, poor marks) and learned nothing from continually being told through grades what they were doing wrong. Some kids did great with the typical grading system, "feared" the corrections and felt well-rewarded for good grades, but some kids just did not! If I set up lessons differently, often from the very beginning, so that failure in that way didn't even enter into it, but that something good happened as a result of a lesson well done, usually those low-marks kids would surprise you. The easiest-to-explain example I have of that is the lengths you could get kids to go and the amount they could learn if you just called something "extra credit" rather than a required element. They felt like they could not fail - even 1 out of 10 points possible extra credit is SOMETHING. But rather than getting a lot of crappy extra credit assignments, I often got very cool things from D-level students I could give a 10/10 - when they would NEVER make an A on a "normal" quiz. And let me just also say I don't think all or even most of the low-marks kids I'm talking about were dumb or bad in some way, it was just REAL easy when relying on corrections (points off) to get in a negative downward spiral of them trying even less and me taking off even more points. The students who saw enough reward and "respected" grading corrections didn't need me to change my tactics (although they also responded well to the other types of lessons) and I imagine some dogs are the same. I used leash corrections on Odin for a month trying to teach him leash manners. Probably confusing the issue is I doubt I have very good timing, although I was trying really hard. He seemed to pull worse and worse - what I was telling him NOT to do. But when I switched my approach and started using only rewards to tell him what TO do (I think based on advice from Kristine), we were walking much better in just one afternoon. I kid you not. Which in my mind says he wasn't willful or disrespectful, exactly (like I was beginning to suspect during the bad month trying to teach him with leash pops), we just weren't communicating well. Maybe I just don't give effective corrections during training and it's as much my issue as Odin's. BTW great post Debbie on the importance of communication in commanding respect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Me 2! Personally, the only reason I would teach a dog to not jump on me, was because if I allow him to jump on me, he thinks he can jump on anyone else. Me 3! Kristine you are on a roll! While rules are necessary they cannot be hard and fast, doesn't work, some need to be broken for whatever reason. I don't believe in correcting a dog for a behavior if I first haven't taught the dog what I want. Like Kristine, I teach "feet up" and it comes in handy at times! With puppies I do believe in food based teachings. I hate negative teaching and I do believe in corrections, only after the behavior is taught. No 2 dogs are alike and to pigeon hole them is a disservice, there's always another method and other way. You may be the most polar opposite but I am not far behind! Respect is earned imo not demanded and forced to where it is based in fear. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 deleted - double post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Personally, if the only way to earn a dog's respect were to adhere to a set of rigid rules about paws and furniture and corrections, I probably wouldn't even own dogs! I am grateful that those rules aren't absolutes and that a dog's respect can absolutely be earned through other ways. Well, I agree with Kristine more than I disagree, but add me to the list who agrees with this one! While rules are necessary they cannot be hard and fast, doesn't work, some need to be broken for whatever reason. I don't believe in correcting a dog for a behavior if I first haven't taught the dog what I want. Like Kristen, I teach "feet up" and it comes in handy at times! With puppies I do believe in food based teachings. I hate negative teaching and I do believe in corrections, only after the behavior is taught. No 2 dogs are alike and to pigeon hole them is a disservice, there's always another method and other way. You may be the most polar opposite but I am not far behind! Respect is earned imo not demanded and forced to where it is based in fear. Karen *nods* Yup! Agree here, too. PS. Very interesting topic, thanks for asking the question, Jennifer. I still have to read over a lot of answers, but this is a topic I've wondered about myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Just wanted to mention an observation on my two pups, JJ and Ben, each need a different frequency of corrections or rather one is more forgiving then the other. With JJ if he makes mistakes even just around the house it's not a big deal, I can miss a correction or fail to follow up on it he will still be flexible or moldable. Not so with Ben, if he get's on his own program and I miss a correction or fail to follow up on it he will get harder, he's the type that if you throw him a foot he will take a mile. For him I'm careful that I don't apply a correction unless I am in a position to enforce it, by not setting things up to succeed he will be allowed to start down a path of none complience. He's not the type that you want to have down that road, he is more like Jake that way, I allowed a pattern of none complience with him in controlled situation which lead to him finding ways to get to a place where I could not correct him so that he could continue his own program (basically he enacted his right to escape). Of these two pups I would have no problem having JJ in most any type of home, he would figure things out with little reinforcement. Not so with Ben, I think that if he went to a home that lacked a certain amount of strictness or failed to enforced requirements he would be running amuck. It kinda funny the difference in the two, JJ wants to communicate with me and be shown the way, as we develop our relationship he wants to be with me, with Ben I have to require him to be with me, then he begins to be willing to communicate with me which then allows me to show him the way. I have to handle the two differently to get the same end. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Write this date down--I agree with you. J. Me Too - definately agree with Root Beer/Kristine. Please, note the date and time. It may never happen again. A lot of what Amelia wrote is based on pack dominence theory. Yet in packs, you will regularily find the top dogs on their backs with the pups on top of them wrestling. And in my house they will also lay on the floor and let the pups play on the couch. "Suburban Pack Behavior" The difference is the "respect" thing. If the old dogs or the humans say "no, I don't want to play" it's over. If they treat the old dog rough, then the play is over too. The same dog that played with the pups all morning, will pin that pup hard if he's working sheep and the pup comes out and jumps on his head to play. He says "THIS IS WORK KID" pretty darn clearly. Just like when I play tugs and tickles with my pups, but then ask them to walk with me to the sheep with their heads and tails down and thinking. So be it feet, couch, or food...as long as its on my terms and stops when I ask it too, then there isn't a problem. If you've got a dog that can't have any furniture time, can't be invited up for a scratch, because he's going to try to dominate you....well lets just say you've got a dog with problems greater than I'd want to deal with. Side note - jumping up to greet - feet up and licking - is a sign of respect in the canine world. Watch wolves and wild dog greet their pups - the pups are screaming, leaping, licking, paws all over their parents and adult pack members. It's only humans that object to this proper canine display of submission and subordinance. We train alternative behaviors that mean nothing in dog, but make us happy and keeps our clothing clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue_Deutscher Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Side note - jumping up to greet - feet up and licking - is a sign of respect in the canine world. Watch wolves and wild dog greet their pups - the pups are screaming, leaping, licking, paws all over their parents and adult pack members. It's only humans that object to this proper canine display of submission and subordinance. We train alternative behaviors that mean nothing in dog, but make us happy and keeps our clothing clean. That's just what I was thinking! And I was thinking that the people I have respect for have qualities I really admire, or talent in a specific area. And then I was thinking about "pretend" respect, like I've seen from some people at work towards The Man. It's a good thing dogs won't stoop to pretending respect. If they don't respect or admire you or love you, it's painfully obvious. But I think if they love you, if they just like hanging out with you and playing with or working with you, they respect you, too. It pretty much goes hand in paw. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 It's a good thing dogs won't stoop to pretending respect I've seen that. It's respect only at arms distance. Any farther or off leash and all bets are off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I just read the entire topic. Manda asked a great question and after going through some sections several times I have to admit I'm now more confused than I was before. I don't know if it's a question of too many viewpoints or because all of it can be deemed correct. Certainly there were no incorrect or false statements made if you know what I mean. I guess it comes down to a question of degree. I need to think about this more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 I think it comes down to how you feel about the relationship you have with your dog. Are you happy that they steal your covers and hog the bed? Does it bother you if they put a paw on your knee to ask for a snuggle? I suppose respect can be many things, to me it has nothing to do with pack structure and/or dominant traits. It is and will continue to be about trust. Should our dogs be well behaved? Of course...this makes them feel safer also. As with children, and really all people and/or animals, consistency in what we ask for and expect is very beneficial in happy co-existing. But I've seen well behaved dog who do not trust their owners and I've seen rowdy pups who would willingly die for them. Which is respectful? It's up to you and what you want. My dogs are all obedient, they're allowed on the furniture if I ask them to come up. There's 8 of them so of course they can't all pile up one on top of each other! They give me hugs and lick my chin and I love that part of our relationship. They don't do it to others. They have a pack structure, which as with all packs, is fluid and ever changing, and I try not to interfere. If I have a problem, it's only with the dog who has a physical issue which impacts his emotional actions and that we manage. But they all trust me and I've never taken their being "dogs" as a sign of disrespect. maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 I can't remember where I read this, but in one training book or article, the author said, "Ask yourself if you'd be letting a friend do what your dog is doing. If the answer is yes, then things are probably ok. If the answer is no, then you need to train your dog not to do that particular thing." That has become my guiding light. Would I let my friend on my furniture? Sure, if she didn't chew things or relieve herself or become so posessive that no one else could sit down. Would I let my friend stick her face in my plate and drool over my food or jump all over me or yell at me? No way! Would I expect my friend to do what I asked, if it was reasonable and she understood what I was asking? Absolutely. It's a pretty simple yardstick. Like Maria, I don't think that respect is about dominance or adherence to a strict pack order, for me it's about consistency, clarity and trust. When my dogs start to take the car keys and go buy their own kibble, or use the computer to order lots of toys we don't need, then I'll worry about dominance. In the meantime, they do what I want them to because, I think, I've been clear, consistent and trustworthy. And I'm the only one tall enough to reach the cookie jar. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 I can't remember where I read this, but in one training book or article, the author said, "Ask yourself if you'd be letting a friend do what your dog is doing. If the answer is yes, then things are probably ok. If the answer is no, then you need to train your dog not to do that particular thing." That has become my guiding light. Would I let my friend on my furniture? Sure, if she didn't chew things or relieve herself or become so posessive that no one else could sit down. Would I let my friend stick her face in my plate and drool over my food or jump all over me or yell at me? No way! Would I expect my friend to do what I asked, if it was reasonable and she understood what I was asking? Absolutely. It's a pretty simple yardstick. Like Maria, I don't think that respect is about dominance or adherence to a strict pack order, for me it's about consistency, clarity and trust. When my dogs start to take the car keys and go buy their own kibble, or use the computer to order lots of toys we don't need, then I'll worry about dominance. In the meantime, they do what I want them to because, I think, I've been clear, consistent and trustworthy. And I'm the only one tall enough to reach the cookie jar. Ruth I had to smile at that. My friends and I do things I would never let my dog do. Dog doo, get it son, thassa joke - Foghorn Leghorn Some of the things we do can get you severely injured or killed with a simple mistake. We've shared sleeping bags male and female and roadkill from the same plate. But I do understand what your saying and it is applicable. Yet my friends and I agree on one thing, better to watch a friend die than your dog. Our rationalization is we walk in knowing what can happen. C'est la vie. Yet I have put my dogs in danger and they have willingly followed me. Fuzzer was one hell of a rock climber and Bas liked boats. A lot of what has been said here came clear today when downtown with both dogs and then later in the day with Jin on 2 incidences. I was teaching both dogs to heel together with a lot of good results and we ran into a bunch of handicapped kids. Mookie who is an attention whore at home, usually overprotective and barks a lot was a perfect lady letting the kids pet and play with her as she stood there. Jin was just the opposite. Not barking but sitting there scootching around on his butt lavishing the attention. He also behaved excellently with the kids. A very nice feeling. When I was ready to resume our walk they were both spot on and ready to go even with the new commands. Later in the day at home Jin ran across the street to play in an empty lot and decided he didn't want to listen to me until I got stern with him, then he paid attention and sat right where he was and went home when he was told. A similar thing happened about an hour later. Their behavior in town was perfect. What I expect of well trained dogs despite the fact Mookie has never been downtown or in such a large crowd. I think all of that today helped make this discussion a lot clearer in my mind. Time to make dinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Hello all, Thanks for the great discussion on this topic. I've enjoyed it. I saw a theme through the posts that, to me any way, is faulty reasoning. Here are examples: "about the correction thing it's just a different way of looking at things. I used to teach, so I see it this way - some students... " "Ask yourself if you'd be letting a friend do what your dog is doing." This is anthropomorphism, attributing human characteristics to animals, dogs in this case. Dogs process information in a completely different way from humans. I can't treat my dogs like my friends because I am not teaching my friends to be obedient, respectful and productive. For dogs it is "if I do this, I get a correction, if I do that I get a reward," and that's it. Don't misunderstand that my dogs are not my friends. They certainly are, but they're my dog friends and I treat them as such. We decide individually what we will accept from our dogs. My point is that the closer we get to teaching what the dogs perceive as respectful behavior, the more productive our dogs will be. And by productive I mean just about anything we want them to do successfully from walking on a leash to trialling. I watch handlers try and fail miserably on the trial field while off the field they accept all kinds of disrespectful behavior from their dogs without ever making the connection. I see them at every trial I go to. Dogs in vast numbers are killed in shelters every year. Many are surrendered and abandoned for behaviors that are acceptable within the ranks of some who posted to this topic, and are so easily corrected with little effort and without pain or fear. Your dogs will have a forever home any way, but I always write for the others. People don't want their dog jumping on their 2 year old or their 80 year old mother. They become frustrated when the dog chews up the computer power cord or their prized Tupperware collection. They have no idea what to do when the dog runs off every time they open the front door, it hurts when the puppy draws blood and they can't go to the dog park because Skippy is aggressive. Just be consistent with your training and teach them a little repect. Then do what I do, get down on their level and have a major love fest on the lawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 People don't want their dog jumping on their 2 year old or their 80 year old mother. They become frustrated when the dog chews up the computer power cord or their prized Tupperware collection. They have no idea what to do when the dog runs off every time they open the front door, it hurts when the puppy draws blood and they can't go to the dog park because Skippy is aggressive. Are you talking to us, or just a generic "you"? Because nobody here seems to be allowing these types of behaviors. And the same dogs sometimes even sleep in the bed, play on the couch, put their feet upon us.... What a dog chews on has nothing to do with respect. Again, if we're talking pack behavior, I've never seen an alpha dog get upset over a puppy eating the drapes or digging up the flower bed. He didn't want them, so who cares? It doesn't mean a thing to dogs. It means something to humans - mostly we need to supervise and train that puppy to think chewing equals <insert your acceptable item here>. Regarding the anthropomorphisms: Since we are human, it is often more understandable to us to learn or explain things about dogs based on human terminology. After all, when you train your human students about Come Bye, you did say clockwise right? Well its a dog behavior, so you should have said "with your right eye on the sheep as you pass them". Dogs don't have clocks. Lets relax a little with this stuff and just go for clarity, not absolutes only in one language or the other that are as silly as my comebye example. I'm human, the people typing here are human - lets use our frame of reference to discuss and debate things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 "Ask yourself if you'd be letting a friend do what your dog is doing." Depends on what my dog's doing and which friend would be doing it also. The licky face game is not shared with me by to many humans, but my grandson has snuck up and licked me. I think I like the dog licking better! Sleeping with me??? Well again depends on what friend but I guess I don't expect the friend to lay on my feet and keep them warm. Although it might be nice. Now I do draw the line at watching me go to the bathroom. That's reserved for the my dogs only, I don't even think I'd like stranger dogs to do that! I will say I have been training my son to be obedient, respectful and productive, hope he turns out at least as good as the dogs! Funny thing is, the training is similar or it turned out that way after I got into training the dogs. The kids got easier to train using the same methods. Including a bop on the bean once in a while! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Are you talking to us, or just a generic "you"? Because nobody here seems to be allowing these types of behaviors. And the same dogs sometimes even sleep in the bed, play on the couch, put their feet upon us.... What a dog chews on has nothing to do with respect. Again, if we're talking pack behavior, I've never seen an alpha dog get upset over a puppy eating the drapes or digging up the flower bed. He didn't want them, so who cares? It doesn't mean a thing to dogs. It means something to humans - mostly we need to supervise and train that puppy to think chewing equals <insert your acceptable item here>. Regarding the anthropomorphisms: Since we are human, it is often more understandable to us to learn or explain things about dogs based on human terminology. After all, when you train your human students about Come Bye, you did say clockwise right? Well its a dog behavior, so you should have said "with your right eye on the sheep as you pass them". Dogs don't have clocks. Lets relax a little with this stuff and just go for clarity, not absolutes only in one language or the other that are as silly as my comebye example. I'm human, the people typing here are human - lets use our frame of reference to discuss and debate things. Get the Guinness Book! Now I agree with you!!!! VERY well said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Now I do draw the line at watching me go to the bathroom. That's reserved for the my dogs only, I don't even think I'd like stranger dogs to do that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Get the Guinness Book! Now I agree with you!!!! VERY well said! I'll click and throw some chocholate your way if you'll do the same for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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