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Covering the Pressure at the Top Causing Lift to be Off


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Hi Carol!

 

My dog is overly pressure sensitive (a topic for another thread :rolleyes: ) and if I send her into the pressure at the top of the outrun she overflanks to cover the pressure of the set out which causes the lift to be pushed to the side. For example, at the last few trials and at a away-from-home practice I sent her come bye which had her coming into the pressure of the set out pen which was around 1 o'clock. She overflanks at the top, sometimes slightly, sometimes more, and the sheep lift off to my left - enough for a 1 to 2 point deduction on the lift and then I struggle to get them online for the fetch. She's got enough eye that I don't stop her at the top and actually have been working on having her come in stronger.

 

So my questions are: 1) how do I handle this at a trial, and 2) are there any exercises to help her overcome this?

 

Thanks in advance!!

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Guest carol campion
Hi Carol!

 

My dog is overly pressure sensitive (a topic for another thread :rolleyes: ) and if I send her into the pressure at the top of the outrun she overflanks to cover the pressure of the set out which causes the lift to be pushed to the side. For example, at the last few trials and at a away-from-home practice I sent her come bye which had her coming into the pressure of the set out pen which was around 1 o'clock. She overflanks at the top, sometimes slightly, sometimes more, and the sheep lift off to my left - enough for a 1 to 2 point deduction on the lift and then I struggle to get them online for the fetch. She's got enough eye that I don't stop her at the top and actually have been working on having her come in stronger.

 

So my questions are: 1) how do I handle this at a trial, and 2) are there any exercises to help her overcome this?

 

Thanks in advance!!

 

I think the best way to handle this at a trial is to handle it! Get her to turn in at the proper place. It sounds like this is not if the pressure point she is picking is one that is really going to stop the sheep rather than guide them down the field. If you don't want to stop her, and knowing your dog, I agree, it needs to be a turn in—a there. Also look to see how deep behind the sheep she is when she comes round. She may well be coming around flat and really pushing them off even though they don't show it because of the hold out dog. So if his is what is happening, she is compensating for the possibility of her own movement pushing them back to the holdout. If she were deep enough, she could get to the pressure spot on the pressure side but back far enough, where she belonged, so she could feel the control she wants but without turning the sheep off line.

 

Also, work on being able to stop her/pause her anywhere on her outrun as well so you can turn her onto her sheep at any different point at the top when need be, a she can fetch straight down from that point.

 

I have a little exercise that, along with handling, might help. I will write it out later.

 

Carol

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Guest carol campion
I think the best way to handle this at a trial is to handle it! Get her to turn in at the proper place. It sounds like this is not if the pressure point she is picking is one that is really going to stop the sheep rather than guide them down the field. If you don't want to stop her, and knowing your dog, I agree, it needs to be a turn in—a there. Also look to see how deep behind the sheep she is when she comes round. She may well be coming around flat and really pushing them off even though they don't show it because of the hold out dog. So if his is what is happening, she is compensating for the possibility of her own movement pushing them back to the holdout. If she were deep enough, she could get to the pressure spot on the pressure side but back far enough, where she belonged, so she could feel the control she wants but without turning the sheep off line.

 

Also, work on being able to stop her/pause her anywhere on her outrun as well so you can turn her onto her sheep at any different point at the top when need be, a she can fetch straight down from that point.

 

I have a little exercise that, along with handling, might help. I will write it out later.

 

Carol

 

I see my lame attempt at being witty flopped!! :rolleyes:

 

I'll try again—not to be witty but to make more sense!

 

The best way to handle this at a trial is to do just that—handle it—proactively! Command her to turn in at the proper place and don't wait and hope that she will. Stop her or turn her in at the point that will get her on the pressure that guides the sheep down rather than the point she instinctively picks, which is the point that stops the sheep. If you know she has a tendency to always seek out the pressure point that holds the sheep and then stick, you need to be one step ahead of her.

 

Some dogs are very natural and can land perfectly at the top and we all would love to own that dog! But many dogs are wrong at the top due to their type of eye, poor training, bad sheep or fields to train on, etc. and they need commands and help.

 

Meanwhile, at home, you can work on her general obedience as I stated this morning. Make sure you can stop her anywhere on an outrun so you can really fine tune where the best place is to turn her in for the lift. Make sure that for her a flank is a flank and a walk-on is a walk-on.

 

Sounds simple and foolish—but watch at the next trial how many dogs flank when asked to walk up and come forward when asked to flank. They are chosing what they think they need and they may be right sometimes but they are also wrong a lot. Then the handler ends up playing catch up trying to fix the mess the dog has made with some subtle disobedience.

 

So at the top, she needs to be deep and coming forward at the right place-not flanking if you ask for a walk up.

 

Meanwhile at the ranch....go back to basics to test out if she gives enough room at the top in general. She may when the pressure is directly behind the sheep, but if she is picking places to over run to and stick and that sort of thing, I would guess her top is not consistent.

 

I would do what I suggested to Deb, short casts with pressure that should draw her in at 12. See how deep she is. Then set up your outruns to start angling across pressure to see when and where it falls apart.

 

It might be helpful to set up an exercise of quarter flanks ( I call them) to focus on just the top of the outrun. Start with you then dog then sheep forming a big triangle. For example, set the dog up on your right (3:00) and the sheep directly across from you (12:00). Send the dog from that positioning to outrun. He is doing half an outrun—the top half. Having the dog half way (in an arc shape) between you both, allows you to focus on the part that usually falls apart and people are late seeing or fixing. Pay most attention to where the dog draws up and where she looks in and where she is aiming to land. She should hold the arc cleanly til she is behind the sheep. If she does, let her fetch. (You can vary the size of the outrun by how far away you set each of you up.) Work on this with the pressure behind the sheep. No reason then to draw up short.

 

Dogs learn by patterning. They come up short because they are anticipating fetching. Especially if they have been allowed to come in short and angle in for a while and then fetch. Dogs are already fetching in their minds when they leave on their outruns and are eager to get on with it, so the shortest route possible. Think it through. If a dog is coming in short and gets to have its sheep—to fetch, why should it go all the way around? Especially one with strong opinions as to what it wants to have happen when it gets up there. So change the pattern—do not allow it to have the sheep—fetch—til it casts properly and covers the sheep. Same with overrunning but in that scenario, you stop the dog in the right place and don't allow over running.

 

If the dog didn't cover the sheep properly, do not fetch. Get the dog to 12 and stop it there. Then step in the same direction to another spot on the arc and send/reflank the dog again. When it gets to the place it is usually thinking of cutting in, it usually looks in first. When you see if look in, correct it there. YOu may have to actually stop it first to kind of reset its brain.Flank it on to the proper point. When it reaches the proper point, let it fetch. Keep working this quarter flank exercise til the dog gives up its old idea of where it gets to fetch from. Reprogram it that it doesn't get to fetch unless it covers the sheep.

 

If you have a dog that is really determined to come in at the old short or flat spot due to habit or eye, you may have to be really firm about the dog not coming in. You may need to really put a lot of pressure onto that place to keep him out of there. Or you might have one that thinks maybe you just want it wide—which is not what you want. You just want it not to come in and to cover the sheep. This is the top of the outrun.

 

So get this in place in a low pressure spot til the dog is 100%. If you are consistant, you will see them looking past the old place they came in and looking for the correct place. Be sure to then let them fetch

 

Once the dog is consistently casting and covering, make the arcs much bigger. You can get where you set this up with you and dog about 100 yards away from one another. You want to see the dog holding the arc. Its an outrun but you are sending your dog from half way instead of from your feet. You are starting it outrun from close to the spot it usually cuts in. This allows you to get the dog thinking of a cleaner cast from that point.

 

Then start the exercise setting the dog up closer to you like at 4:00 and gradually at 5:00 and gradually at your feet. When it hits the spot it used to cut in at, it will have the new pattern established and you will have a correction in place that it understands if it is wrong. Many dogs will naturally widen some and relax on their outruns when you take their old anticipation away.

 

Next up the ante by having the exercise take place with the draw angled off more to the side. When you ask for the flank, you want to still see the dog cast. This is where you start proofing it out and where the biggest flaws will show. This is where the strong opinions that have been interfering with your outruns will show up even more. You won't want the dog at 12 if the pressure is at the side, but you will still want to see an arc to get the dog to where it should be-an arc that puts the dog somewhere behind the sheep.

 

I wouldn't try to fix this far away. I would fix it up close and take the whole exercise and corretin gradually to greater distances. That way once you get to a big outrun space, you will have been able to show the dog all new ways of handling the top.

 

Hope this helps. I can see Charlie yawning :D

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