Journey Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 OK, let me preface this that I am from Florida and now in Tennessee - we have no hills in Fl (other than landfills and septics)! I have a young dog that does not want to stay behind her stock on the fetch. She really wants to stay out wide and "almost" run along the top of the hillside. This now is bleeding into her fetch on flatter areas. I've taken her out on foot and on the 4 wheeler but I have to constantly correct her, she's pushing as well, they are not dog broke sheep. Aside from just going and walking and walking and walking, what other exercises do you do for this? On her drive she will stay nice and tucked in behind, flares slightly when cresting the top of hills but pulls herself back in behind afterwards. I have patience and we've only had the stock for 2 weeks but I want to make sure this isn't a problem before it becomes one! Thanks! And "Bless your pea-pickin hearts" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 OK, let me preface this that I am from Florida and now in Tennessee - we have no hills in Fl (other than landfills and septics)! I have a young dog that does not want to stay behind her stock on the fetch. She really wants to stay out wide and "almost" run along the top of the hillside. This now is bleeding into her fetch on flatter areas. I've taken her out on foot and on the 4 wheeler but I have to constantly correct her, she's pushing as well, they are not dog broke sheep. Aside from just going and walking and walking and walking, what other exercises do you do for this? On her drive she will stay nice and tucked in behind, flares slightly when cresting the top of hills but pulls herself back in behind afterwards. I have patience and we've only had the stock for 2 weeks but I want to make sure this isn't a problem before it becomes one! Thanks! And "Bless your pea-pickin hearts" Maybe you could be a little more specific as to the position of the dog on the sheep on the fetch. Forget the hills etc. and concentrate on what the dog is doing in relationship to the sheep on the fetch and maybe we can help. From what I am understanding from your description the dog is way off the sheep and not behind them (maybe doesn't need to be) I don't understand your meaning when you say you've taken her out on foot and four wheeler. Taken her where? Are you not sending her on a gather to fetch the sheep to you. Please try and give a little better description of the problem and actions of the dog and sheep and we'll get to the bottom of this....Thanks....Bob Also, in case you feel I am flaming, I am not. Sometimes I may be a little too much to the point but I am merely trying to understand the problem better. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted March 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Maybe you could be a little more specific as to the position of the dog on the sheep on the fetch. Forget the hills etc. and concentrate on what the dog is doing in relationship to the sheep on the fetch and maybe we can help. From what I am understanding from your description the dog is way off the sheep and not behind them (maybe doesn't need to be) I don't understand your meaning when you say you've taken her out on foot and four wheeler. Taken her where? Are you not sending her on a gather to fetch the sheep to you. Please try and give a little better description of the problem and actions of the dog and sheep and we'll get to the bottom of this....Thanks....Bob Also, in case you feel I am flaming, I am not. Sometimes I may be a little too much to the point but I am merely trying to understand the problem better. Bob OK, I will try! When I send her on a gather she will lift properly - sheep coming straight towards me, then she will blow out to one side; here's my concern if she flares out to one side too far, the sheep change course, then to recover she has fly over to the other side, which I am thinking is wasted energy had she stayed behind them to begin with? While the sheep are coming relatively straight to me she will either be out around 10 or maybe 2 - sometimes she does get as far as 3 and 9 though which cause them to change direction. For the most part she keeps them coming at me, however, if she comes too far up the one of the sides she cannot generally recover. I have taken her and the sheep just out and about walking the fields, I am either on foot or on the 4 wheeler. We've walked and walked, up and down and on the flatter areas. Just doing walk-a-bouts I guess is what you would call it with her fetching the entire time. All of my fields drop off one way or another, not a lot of flat open areas. When the sheep are going "up" she will stay behind them, it's when the sheep are going "down" the hill she flares out. She's never off contact, though occassionally it's a foot race, but she is wasting energy, not thinking, what? I don't worry about flames, just helping my dog! Thanks! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rac Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Do you or have you done balance exercises to the point where you know this isn't a problem ? Do you do this a little while you're on your walkabouts at your new place ? What are the pressures/draws that the sheep may be feeling as they cross your land ? In other words, you say that the sheep are mostly coming straight, could it be that your dog is actually holding the pressure side of the fetch line without you knowing it ? If this is so you may have a natural line dog and not know it. You could manage your lines by watching your dog set this up and just see to it that the dog doesn't come forward to the point where the sheep start to turn. Managing lines can turn into noting the dog holding the pressure side and simply regulating the dog's speed instead of using flanking commands (by watching the sheep's noses they will tell you when to slow down and speed up the dog). If this isn't the case then we (at least me) may need to read some more of your tale. Of course you should be able to keep the dog behind if it's trained well enough and obedient by using flanks, but... I'll be interested to see how this turns out. Good luck. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Karen, When I read your post, I was thinking along the same lines as Ray. She may just be working off to the side to control the lead sheep with her eye. it sounds like she starts out okay but then starts to drift too far forward, at which point she turns the sheep. Twist used to almost always work off to the side to control the lead sheep. I think I'd concentrate on preventing her from coming too far forward but let her work where she's comfortable holding the pressure. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickeyDogs Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 You said she flares out when the sheep head down hill. Are the sheep picking up speed then? If so, she may be flanking to their heads to stop them. I agree with Ray that controlling your dog's pace is better than using flanks. If the pressure is hard enough and if I don't hitch her before she gets going, my dog will head the sheep to stop their forward movement. She does it driving, though, not on the fetch. If your dog was use to working on the flat, working on the hills is a whole new ballgame for her. It sounds like she's trying to figure out the pressure of the new field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 OK, I will try! When I send her on a gather she will lift properly - sheep coming straight towards me, then she will blow out to one side; here's my concern if she flares out to one side too far, the sheep change course, then to recover she has fly over to the other side, which I am thinking is wasted energy had she stayed behind them to begin with? While the sheep are coming relatively straight to me she will either be out around 10 or maybe 2 - sometimes she does get as far as 3 and 9 though which cause them to change direction. For the most part she keeps them coming at me, however, if she comes too far up the one of the sides she cannot generally recover. I have taken her and the sheep just out and about walking the fields, I am either on foot or on the 4 wheeler. We've walked and walked, up and down and on the flatter areas. Just doing walk-a-bouts I guess is what you would call it with her fetching the entire time. All of my fields drop off one way or another, not a lot of flat open areas. When the sheep are going "up" she will stay behind them, it's when the sheep are going "down" the hill she flares out. She's never off contact, though occassionally it's a foot race, but she is wasting energy, not thinking, what? I don't worry about flames, just helping my dog! Thanks! Karen OK, I think I am getting the picture now. I think you are probably letting her fetch the sheep to you without commands. If so the flanking out to one side or the other is just her trying to hold the sheep straight to you but they are probably moving a little too fast for her to control them. Probably the reason she is getting to to 3 or 9 o'clock is the desire to get them slowed down. Working a hill is much more difficult for young dogs to manage balance, especially if they are not used to that topography. It would appear to me that she is trying really hard to keep them straight and in control but doesn't really know anything about pace yet. Your walk abouts are good practice for balance work and it sounds like she does that really well and it is a good exercise to do at the end of a training session to keep the balance in your dog. However, you need to start controlling the speed of the sheep by 1) teaching her to lift properly with nice soft presence approaching the sheep with patience and firmness turning them toward you and walking on towards you. If she is lifting them hard and getting things into motion too energetically the mistake has already been made and will get worse from there on. Once you have taught her to lift nicely, then control the speed of the sheep by slowing her down and keeping her at a distance from the sheep so that they are moving but comfortable. This is different for each dog and you will get to know where that place is soon. I think you will find with her that once you get the proper pace on the sheep she will be able to hold the line to you as it would appear to me that she has a good desire to do just that. It certainly wouldn't hurt to give her a few flanks if needed but having a dog that will keep sheep on line is very desirable. You can do this by moving yourself at the bottom of the field to change that balance point if needed. This will keep her thinking and knowing where you are all the time. Once you have this nice straight fetch then you need to move into the harder stuff getting her to listen, slow down when asked, flank when asked and yes even flank her around in front of the sheep and push them back where they came from. She must learn, that even though she can hold a line well, she must take commands from her handler. Be sure to mix this up so that you don't lose that nice desire to keep her sheep on line. There have been some other very good hints and advise from other folks on this forum too and I agree with everything they said. Have fun with your young dog and keep up the good work.....Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rac Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 "When the sheep are going "up" she will stay behind them, it's when the sheep are going "down" the hill she flares out. She's never off contact, though occassionally it's a foot race, but she is wasting energy, not thinking, what?" Another thing I thought of that's kind of in the same vein is that your dog might be trying to figure out how to rate/pace the sheep by itself. Some dogs will naturally flare themselves out, especially on the fetch, to take pressure off the sheep (especially if they know the trainer doesn't want the sheep to run). Being that the problem seems to exist mostly going downhill also kind of plays into this (she's having to PUSH them up the hill). Either way (flanking because of trying to hold the line or because of the sheep wanting to run down the hill) I think the cure is pretty much the same. You may find when you slow her down or stop her that the sheep want to pull toward the side she was holding, or you may see them just slow down and stay reasonably straight... I think slowing down the trips downhill and seeing what you've got will go a long ways toward recognizing the "why". I would try to keep the sheep going at one speed. Watch to see if she's pushing into them 'when they begin' their downhill leg. What happens if you just let them coast ? Can you just let them coast (and maybe touch the flanks a little to keep the line) ? When you do slow her down, did she hold the line without your help better than you can by stepping in ? Do you have a 'slow down' or 'take time' whistle command ? Might be a nice thing to have. Lots of good stuff here. This is actually kind of a fun problem to have, imo. It can open up many new things for you to work on with your dog and make you both better. If your dog is well trained and fairly obedient you can have fun fixing it and also learn some things about your dog and your new sheep. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Ah, what great help you all are! OK, we had a very productive weekend. I read the part about the “soft approach” and that made me think. She didn’t have a soft approach and that may be why things got hairy. I watched her and she comes in “hard”. So I started her from the bottom of a hill, so I was closer, and just gave her a steady as she came to balance. What a difference to begin the fetch with. I can stop her and flank her, though she may or may not listen, I now see that is due to how much she is pushing and trying to figure this out. When I have a hold of her mentally at the top things are much nicer. So, her stop at the top I extended, enforced. The sheep were coming down the hill quickly but not running. A few more outruns and they were trotting down the hill nicely, now, I still have her stopped at the top though. Today, she had a nice lift then I stopped her again, the sheep “walked” down the hill and low and behold so did she right behind them Bob is right, I have been relatively silent and letting her work. She didn’t like my getting onto her at first but she complied, thank gawd.., She does hold a line and her balance is usually dead on. I tried just letting them “coast” down, worked great as long as she didn’t move. Now I have to work on her getting up softly. The draws in this field are many, that and the fact it’s 2 groups of sheep that have yet to integrate themselves into 1. The barn unfortunately sits smack dab in the middle of the field (it's about 25 acres). Thanks to you all I see now that she is in over her head somewhat and my stepping in may ease her up. She’s a nice started dog but this is my first go. She can jerk my chain and chances are I won’t know it! We’ll keep going and asking questions! Ray, my whistles suck. There’s no nice way to put it! Something else for me to work on (as well as a take time command!). Feel free to solicit move advise Thanks! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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