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Should I keep my border collie


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A significant number have suggested Border Collie puppies and kids just don't mix. Period.

 

Who said that?

 

Also, how am I being rude? I'm not asking defensively. I would honestly like to know. I personally feel that my posts have been constructive. I don't sugar-coat responses, but I'm not "rude".

 

Thanks for any clarification.

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"A significant number have suggested Border Collie puppies and kids just don't mix. Period."

 

Who said that?

 

Also, how am I being rude? I'm not asking defensively. I would honestly like to know. I personally feel that my posts have been constructive. I don't sugar-coat responses, but I'm not "rude".

 

Thanks for any clarification.

I didn't mean you personally had been rude. Here are some comments:

 

"To have a dog is to be a dog trainer, just like to have children is to be a parent, you can't decide to train only when convienent much the same as you can't parent only when it convienent."

 

"If you had done this research before you got the dog..."

 

"It sounds like you expect a 13 week old puppy to be a well behaved pet just because it's an "intelligent" breed. Why don't you contact the breeder and see if you can return her? It really sounds like you're in over your head."

 

"Listening to your situation it doesn't sound like you need a puppy period. It's not the the breed or "herding" type, its the fact that its a young, active, living being that's going to need as much time or more than the human kids you already have. There is only so much time in day, and you're lightyears behind on having the skills needed to grow this puppy into a great adult pet. This is not an insult, this is just fact."

 

"I agree that you're over your head to have a puppy, period - border collie or not...When you do decide to get a dog for your kids, I absolutely agree that you should get an adult rescue who is proven good with kids. (My neighbors have a second-hand dog who lets the kids climb on her, sit on her, pull her ears, etc., etc..) Small kids don't need a puppy - and rarely do parents of small kids "need" a puppy, either."

 

"I wholeheartedly agree with those who have suggested that having ANY puppy (much less a Border Collie puppy) in your household is NOT a good idea."

 

"Take care of your family first. You have time for a dog later."

 

"I think you need to remember what your OP question was: “SHOULD I keep my Border Collie” – not “How can I live with my border collie puppy” or “How can I keep my sanity with 3 toddlers and a puppy” or “What can I do to get my puppy to behave.” You asked if you should keep it, and people answered that. Some felt you should; some felt you shouldn’t. I really didn’t think it was harsh – just realistic"

- I quote this one because the OP's original post included, "But before I spend the money I want to know if it is worth it...can she be a pet vs a working dog on a farm? My vet says that since she came from a working line of Border Collies her herding instinct may be so strong that it would be difficult and even border on cruel to break her from it. Is that true? How can I find out if she will be able to blend w/ our family as a pet? Is this just typical Border collie puppy behavior, should I move forward w/ obedience classes? Please help!!!" So she was, IMHO, asking for help.

 

"The dog has been alive 3 whole months and you clearly don't have the time to control toddler-pup exposure or know how to do so. You bought a dog from the Amish. How smart was that? They are big time millers and not notably caring even if they do work the parents. If you return the pup, chances are they will take it out on the pup. Studies may rave about border collie intelligence; human intelligence when buying one is something else again."

 

"Adpatto, i'm pretty sure i can whup you if you want to start comparing how nice we are to our dogs...."

 

"OP, Adaptto, you came and asked a rather pointed question and you don't like the answers? Maybe you don't like them because they are truthful. You didn't ask for help, didn't ask for guidance, and didn’t ask for training suggestions." - Again, she DID ask for help and guidance.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now, any ONE of these would be no great reason to take offense. However, the sum total seems pretty overwhelming to me. Brutally and honest don't HAVE to go together. I have a fairly well earned reputation as an...um, jerk...but I can give advice without being critical of the OP. Maybe not good advice - many seem to disagree, although it worked well in my family - but a bit of sympathy helps. Something about 'a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down', although I'm dating myself.

 

I also freely admit there has been a lot of great advice. Links to websites, good books to read.

 

I'm sure a lot of long time posters have seen this too many times. Time 100 can make the frustration palpable. However, it is the OP's first post on the subject.

 

Also, in re-reading the posts, I screwed up in saying, "A significant number have suggested Border Collie puppies and kids just don't mix. Period." In reality, most were saying HER kids didn't need to mix with a puppy - which is not the same thing. Still, the posts that say 'You have X choices, one of which is giving the dog back' - which I included as an option in my first post - probably are more effective than 'are you nuts' posts.

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I didn't mean you personally had been rude.

 

Okay, fair enough. I got confused, and thought you meant me in particular, since you quoted my passage. I apologize.

 

I do see your point to a degree regarding the comments and how they "pile up". But I guess I'm a hardened internet veteran, because I don't see them as bad in any way. There's a lot of issues with communicating via text only - the main one being that emotions are not readable. I tend to err that people have the best intentions unless it is very clear in their text that they don't; but again, I'm used to this kind of thing.

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Any post telling others they are rude -- any post telling others what they should say and how they should say it -- is off-topic. Sometimes, as moderator, I have to tell people when they've passed the limits of civility. It's one of the least enjoyable tasks of moderating. Why anyone else would want to take it on is beyond me.

 

Let's get back to the topic.

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I'd say she sounds like a typical Border Collie pup. I raised two at once and was ripping my hair out. You can't train instinct out of a dog but you can train self control. I'd enroll her in some puppy classes and go from there. Some dogs just aren't suited to some people, but most of the time if the effort is put in you can learn to live in peace with one another.

 

Spank ate a couch when he was around that age. He also ate a door, plenty of shoes, coats, mittens, collars, leashes, dog beds and even a computer. He couldn't be off lead or he'd get in and chase my non dog friendly horses. He was a dreadful puppy. But he grew into a fantastic dog. Had he not been so cute I probably would've killed him. Someone gave me him and like you I wasn't expecting what I got.

 

If you can stick it out I'd say go for it. Some times you've just got to adjust to them and they you.

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Frankly, I've never met a family where it didn't work.

 

Then you are living in a bubble. The shelters and training classes are full of dogs that that the puppy/kid thing did *not* work out. Its not breed specific, it's 2009 specific, its canine/human intereaction everywhere. Most of the "bad" dogs are perfectly normally dogs who simply need structure and supervision. Sometimes it's simple quick help, and sometimes it's just a bad match.

 

Is it worse than year ago? Maybe. General people know less about animals now (most school kids can tell you more about African Lions from Nat Geo TV than they can the family dog) and people are also less tolerant of "oops" issues involving animals.

 

I did an educational program with my dogs for a local middle school just a few years ago. Very rural community, definately a community where dogs are abundant. Some of the kids were afraid of dogs, which we honored to the level the child asked. In the process of dealing with that we kept hearing how many kids had been bitten in the past. On a whim we then did an informal survey regarding that and found 80% of the kids had been bitten, 15% badly enough that they required stitches. None of the kids had lasting harm, and by the end of the morning most were helping us with the dogs.

 

Dogs are *predators* and when you get done gnashing your teeth at me and do some research you will find that they are a subspecies of wolf, suspected to be possible the same - as the grey wolf being the species selected by environment for wildness, and the dog for domestication. There are always going to be debates, but the fact that they can freely and successfully interbred tells you a lot.

 

It is *not* necessary for so many dogs to die because they are labeled as "dangerous to children" or "biters" and so many children to have to grow up learning about dogs the hard way. #1 solution is selection - right dog, right home, etc - which was failed here. and #2 solution is supervision. Which with 3 kids under 5, and no experience in dogs to back her up, is not possible for this parent at this time. Then you add training - of which takes a lot of time this person does not have....

 

There are a lot of ways to raise a dog and kids successfully I agree. I cannot agree that is ever appropriate to endanger either species in the process. That definately includes kids trying to discipline dogs themselves, allowing a dog to be so threatened that it has to bare its teeth to warn the kid, or putting kids and pups together so that the puppy learns behaviors that as an adult with result in his abandoment to a shelther or death.

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a few odds and ends:

 

I don't agree that this pup is "typical" of Border Collie as some posters have implied or stated. I think this pups responses to his lack of exercise and leadership are typical. There is a difference. The breed is not the problems, the training/lack of training is. The same results would have occurred with a retriever, hound, or even an active type mixed breed.

 

I've raised a few dozen pups over the last 20 years, turning them out as successful stockdogs, pets, sport companions, and even a few service dogs. The most I've raised at once is 4 - a military operation at times to make sure all the needs were met and more, but something I would not have missed, nor would I ever do again LOL, for the world.

 

A 13 week old pup, raised properly, should have excellent leash manners under normal circumstances (which includes classes). If he doesn't you are looking at human failing.

 

A 13 week old pup is rarely going to be able to tolerate his youthful companions (kids or dogs) playing in front of him without wanting to join in. If the game gets over the top enough, he will go there as well. It's up the adult human to know where to stop the game and set everyone up for a win.

 

The original poster asked "should I keep my border collie?" My answer is no. I'll add to that that she does not need any puppy right now.

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adpatto, One thing that must be kept in mind is the fact that toddlers require an enormous amount of attention and focus. Unfortunately, so do puppies, no matter the breed. And Border Collies, because of their intelligence, require more attention and more focus than other breeds. Even adult BC's require incredible commitment and attention. DW does not work, and thus should be able to spend her free time as she wishes; but she is dedicated to Annie, and literally has to plan her days around keeping the dog active, entertained, and happy. I cannot begin to imagine what the strain would be in having both 3 toddlers and a BC under the same roof. But the sad fact remains that you cannot be fair to all under these circumstances. Certainly, to give up a dog that one loves (and it does not take long to fall in love with a dog) is a painful and difficult thing to do. But for your own sanity, and in the interests of the children and the dog, you would be best served by re-homing the puppy. The dog will be happier, and you will not be faced with having to make a far more Draconian decision at some point in the future if a problem arises. For the time being, consider adopting an adult of a kid-friendly breed other than a Border Collie (we had Beagles when the kids were very young); there will be plenty of time in the future to satisfy your desire to own the greatest breed of dog on Earth.

 

(Was that rude?)

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Then you are living in a bubble. The shelters and training classes are full of dogs that that the puppy/kid thing did *not* work out. Its not breed specific, it's 2009 specific, its canine/human intereaction everywhere. Most of the "bad" dogs are perfectly normally dogs who simply need structure and supervision. Sometimes it's simple quick help, and sometimes it's just a bad match.

 

Is it worse than year ago? Maybe. General people know less about animals now (most school kids can tell you more about African Lions from Nat Geo TV than they can the family dog) and people are also less tolerant of "oops" issues involving animals.

 

I did an educational program with my dogs for a local middle school just a few years ago. Very rural community, definately a community where dogs are abundant. Some of the kids were afraid of dogs, which we honored to the level the child asked. In the process of dealing with that we kept hearing how many kids had been bitten in the past. On a whim did an informal survey regarding that and found 80% of the kids had been bitten, 15% badly enough that they required stitches. None of the kids had lasting harm, and by the end of the morning most were helping us with the dogs.

 

Dogs are *predators* and when you get done gnashing your teeth at me and do some research you will find that they are a subspecies of wolf, suspected to be possible the same - as the grey wolf being the species selected by environment for wildness, and the dog for domestication. There are always going to be debates, but the fact that they can freely and successfully interbred tells you a lot.

 

It is *not* necessary for so many dogs to die because they are labeled as "dangerous to children" or "biters" and so many children to have to grow up learning about dogs the hard way. #1 solution is selection - right dog, right home, etc - which was failed here. and #2 solution is supervision. Which with 3 kids under 5, and no experience in dogs to back her up, is not possible for this parent at this time. Then you add training - of which takes a lot of time this person does not have....

 

There are a lot of ways to raise a dog and kids successfully I agree. I cannot agree that is ever appropriate to endanger either species in the process. That definately includes kids trying to discipline dogs themselves, allowing a dog to be so threatened that it has to bare its teeth to warn the kid, or putting kids and pups together so that the puppy learns behaviors that as an adult with result in his abandoment to a shelther or death.

 

This is a great post, something that I would like to add, dogs as pets for kids seems to have turned from an aid to teach responsibility and to encourage compassion for the animals to be strictly entertainment. When I read the age of the kids I could only visualize what happened here when our friends 3 year old was left to play with a lamb after her mom let her help bottle feed it, run run run, totally amused that the lamb would follow her, when the lamb got tired she wanted to harrass it trying to coax it into following her some more. I made a comment about that it was good thing that the lamb was not a puppy, totally encouraging chasing and biting, and then I could see snarkyness when the child insisted on making the lamb play, if it had been a pup. When the parents didn't step in, I just picked my lamb up and put her back into her crate, yeah it was cute, but it was not teaching the child anything useful, it was not healthy for the lamb, it only served the purpose of entertaining the child and the onlookers. I guess what I look at, if this was a pup why allow the child to continue when you know that the end result would be the child getting bit, maybe not today, but eventually. The child should never be allowed to harrass an animal for their own entertainment, yeah when they get older they may stumble upon that mistake, but creating the habit is just going to ensure it and how bad will the bite be when the child just leans right in there expecting a certain reaction and gets teeth instead? The harder the child leans on the dog the harder the dog will bite to get them to stop.

 

Would it be a puppies fault to develop bad habits if it had been treated day in and day out in a manner that was being allowed with the lamb by our friends child. It's not just kids, adults do the same, in some cases the dog is not a campanion, the dog is a toy or source of entertainment, if the dog does not provide the proper entertainment it must be faulty.

 

Deb

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A 13 week old pup, raised properly, should have excellent leash manners under normal circumstances (which includes classes). If he doesn't you are looking at human failing.

 

That is a really good point. The hardest time, fairly miserable actually, I had with Quinn was during the first two weeks he was with me. By the time he was 11 weeks, I was getting the hang of how to handle him and I started having fun with him. Things were better yet at 13 weeks. By 24 weeks, he was literally the best puppy I ever had as far as behavior in the house and just being a blast to live with. But that was without three little kids. I know I wouldn't have been able to give him what he needed in that situation. Three kids under 5 is a huge job in and of itself.

 

The original poster asked "should I keep my border collie?" My answer is no. I'll add to that that she does not need any puppy right now.

 

Very succint and for all the babbling in my previous post, I have to agree. It sure doesn’t sound like the right situation. I'm remember another thread a couple years back by a mother with kids and a very active BC puppy she was overwhelmed by. She decided to keep the puppy and despite her best intentions, that did not work out. :rolleyes:

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Then you are living in a bubble. The shelters and training classes are full of dogs that that the puppy/kid thing did *not* work out. Its not breed specific, it's 2009 specific, its canine/human intereaction everywhere. Most of the "bad" dogs are perfectly normally dogs who simply need structure and supervision. Sometimes it's simple quick help, and sometimes it's just a bad match.

 

Is it worse than year ago? Maybe. General people know less about animals now (most school kids can tell you more about African Lions from Nat Geo TV than they can the family dog) and people are also less tolerant of "oops" issues involving animals...

 

I cannot agree that is ever appropriate to endanger either species in the process. That definately includes kids trying to discipline dogs themselves, allowing a dog to be so threatened that it has to bare its teeth to warn the kid, or putting kids and pups together so that the puppy learns behaviors that as an adult with result in his abandoment to a shelther or death.

An interesting post. I guess my question would be: Do you tell someone with a puppy & kids to get rid of the puppy, or to join me in my bubble?

 

I was 5-6 years old when we got a puppy. My Mom took care of the feeding, but I was required to do the rest. One of my first and most memorable lessons on love came when my Mom yelled, "Anyone can SAY they love a dog, but you don't REALLY love a dog if you won't clean up after him when he's sick!" I cleaned up the barf and diarrhea.

 

It was my job to walk him, exercise him, keep him out of dog fights if possible, or handle things if it was not - since not all neighborhood dogs were kept on leashes or in yards. The puppy/dog needed attention, and I was expected to provide it. If he needed correction, I was expected to handle that as well.

 

I talked with my oldest daughter last night about Leila. Sammie was 5 when we got Leila. Like her older brother, she was told a way to deal with Leila's nippy play, and she did. She wasn't afraid of Leila. When Leila turned her head sideways and gnashed her teeth, Sammie would tell her to stop being a goofball - and they would go back to playing. Having grown up with Leila, she knew full well the difference between Leila acting frustrated, and Leila acting mad. Can't speak for any wolves, but Leila would follow up with playing, not biting. And when we had our baby, we watched very closely...but Leila seemed to understand 'baby'. She would watch Faith for hours, but she viewed her as something to protect, not dominate or compete with.

 

So when someone asked about a nippy Border Collie puppy around kids, I told her what we did because it worked for us. I don't know her family. I don't know her kids. I've met kids who were instinctive animal people, and others that were darn near hopeless. My granddaughter started off as near hopeless, but she is learning - from our 2 puppies. Or maybe WITH them.

 

One option that I pointed out in my first post IS for the OP to give the puppy away. As I said, that isn't "bad" - sometimes the personalities aren't likely to work out. But even a nippy Border Collie - and not all are - can learn to play just fine with young kids. And young kids can learn to respect dogs - but not if they are protected from them.

 

It involves risk management. The first Aussie I knew had NO business being around kids. He was a very dominant dog, and he also could get scared - and when he was scared, he would bite. NOT a suitable playmate for young kids. Leila loved being around kids, and she wasn't mean. I don't think you could have trained her to bite a human. But when young, she would nip as part of trying to herd the kids. Once she learned that was wrong, she stopped. It didn't take long, either.

 

The decision needs someone who knows both the puppy and the kids. If the OP isn't comfortable, then getting a good dog trainer to come out and watch would be money well spent. I took her post to mean: 'If nipping is a permanent part of BC behavior, I'll get rid of the BC. If it can be trained out, I'll try that. Help.'

 

Nipping is NOT a permanent part of MOST Border Collie behavior. A dog with issues shouldn't be around young kids. A dog (or puppy) without issues can learn. While my way seems very unpopular here, it has the advantage of teaching young kids to take responsibility. Are her kids ready? Don't know. They are younger than mine were. And I've never met them. And I don't know how much supervision their Mom can provide. That is why I simply told her what had worked for us. Now it is her call to decide how to proceed. I wish her well whatever path she chooses.

 

I'd also add that supervision isn't additive. We spent 10 months caring for our then 2 year old granddaughter, so the trauma is still fresh in my mind. Our granddaughter was more difficult to deal with than our 3 kids were, combined! We didn't have puppies then, and I'm glad. However, when they all live together, you can supervise them together. 1 kid + 1 puppy does not equal 2 times the supervision. 3 kids + 1 puppy doesn't equal 4 times the supervision. It goes up, but not an additional 100% with each new arrival - just as 2 puppies are more work than one, but not twice the work. What the OP needs to consider, and none of us know, is how much additional supervision she can provide. When our granddaughter comes over and joins the pups running around in the backyard, it really isn't more effort to watch all 3 than to watch just her.

 

That is why I don't like to get dogmatic about what the OP should do. There are too many variables in the equation to solve it with what I know from her post.

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**warning, slight hijack**

 

Bob,

I think one thing you're forgetting is that your raising was probably not typical. My mother was an animal lover, and she raised four children (all born within five years of one another) with a houseful of cats and dogs of various ages. I don't remember *my* early training as specifically as you remember yours, but I'm sure my mother impressed upon us that the animals weren't our toys and that we were to respect them. I was riding by the time I was 5, and we had all sorts of poultry and later goats in addition to the horses, dogs, and cats. We were taught responsibility for animals from an early age. BUT (and it's a huge but) we were never expected as itty bitty children to also teach manners to puppies or dogs. My mother did that. at the same time she was teaching us kids manners. Bless her, I sometimes wonder how she kept her sanity (maybe she didn't!) but we all turned out fine.

 

So I do think I understand your point of view. I was raised admidst a bunch of animals. None of us ever came to real harm because of them. The reverse can't always said to be true. There was the time my sister, then five I think (which meant the rest of us were 3, 2, and 1) put a rubberband around the Siamese cat's (Little One's) neck. You can bet she learned pretty quickly from my mom that such things were just NOT DONE.

 

I often see comments here, though, about how times have changed. And I think they have. When I read the original post, my first thought was that the OP had taken on too much, not "Gee, mom managed four kids and a houseful of animals, so this person can too." Why? Because I think today people think differently about pets. I also think that my mom and your mom were not the norm but rather the exceptions. My mom loved. loved. loved animals and always had. She had her cats and dogs and horses before she had any of us and she was determined to make it work no matter what. That sort of attitude just doesn't exist so much anymore. I can appreciate your advice (obviously not the kids punishing dogs parts, as I've already stated) because I was raised pretty much the same way you were. But I just don't think the average parent today has that same perspective that our parents did. Maybe that's not giving the OP enough credit--maybe she is more like our moms were, but if what I've seen on this forum over the years is any indicator, then that's not very likely. And as Wendy noted, the numbers of pets given up because of problems with the children would imply the same.

 

J.

 

**end of hijack**

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**warning, slight hijack**

 

Bob,

I think one thing you're forgetting is that your raising was probably not typical. My mother was an animal lover, and she raised four children (all born within five years of one another) with a houseful of cats and dogs of various ages. I don't remember *my* early training as specifically as you remember yours, but I'm sure my mother impressed upon us that the animals weren't our toys and that we were to respect them...

 

I often see comments here, though, about how times have changed. And I think they have. When I read the original post, my first thought was that the OP had taken on too much, not "Gee, mom managed four kids and a houseful of animals, so this person can too." Why? Because I think today people think differently about pets. I also think that my mom and your mom were not the norm but rather the exceptions...

**end of hijack**

You are correct. I agree. Thanks for the post.

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ADPATO,

 

Please, if you decide to give up the dog, consider contacting a Border Collie Rescue rather than returning it to the breeder. I am uneasy about the advice the breeder has given you. Perhaps s/he is more responsible than s/he sounds, but ---

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ADPATO,

 

Please, if you decide to give up the dog, consider contacting a Border Collie Rescue rather than returning it to the breeder. I am uneasy about the advice the breeder has given you. Perhaps s/he is more responsible than s/he sounds, but ---

 

I second this....I too am worried that this breeder may not be a good one and I don't think the pup should go back there. I would try a rescue or a private rehome.

 

As for the rest of your situation, you have gotten some good advise...I think all of the problems you are having can be fixed with training, but it won't be easy. You're going to have to sign up for training classes and work with your pup every day, exercise your pup every day...you'll need to have a couple of hours set aside daily to do this, and only you can decide if you have the time and energy to put into it. I also recommend baby gates and separating the pup and kids unless you are supervising and within reaching distance. For the nipping problems, google "The bite stops here"...I found it to be very helpful. Please let us know what you decide.

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I think it really depends on how much effort you put into it. With children that young, i think you'd have to know what you're doing. When I got Sage as a puppy, he wouldn't stopped biting at my legs and everything. He kept on trying to herd me. It took a few weeks of everyone being firm and teaching him to stop. Eventually, we could go on a nice walk! He still pulls, though. He's good with children, but likes to jump so he's not idea of a toddler. He's not really a nipper except with other dogs and can be realllllly relaxed a lot of the time. I thought we were over our heads when we got him, but I read some training books, kept him busy with tricks because they need mental stimulation, and we made it all work. I never thought of him as a terror, though. They just need to be taught. They can be easily trained if you know what you're doing...or get help.

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I'd like to address "keeping" the border collie and what that means.

 

Krisk and I recently tried to buy a dog out of a bad situation. It was an 8 yr old female, tied to a tin box on a length of chain in all kinds of weather. I drive past almost daily and the dog is never off the chain. The family has 4 children under the age of ten and I'd often see the kids out playing the yard and the dog at the end of her chain, obviously wanting to join the fun. Coming home from work late at night, I'd see the dog at the end of her chain, gazing at the house windows, watching her family inside.

 

Krisk and I rounded up a few hundred bucks and I approached the owner about purchasing the dog. I told her where I lived and she knew my farm. No way was she interested in selling because Ally was the kids dog and she would never sell their pet. It was apparent that the kids didnt give a hoot about their pet. I did ask, and No, the dog never comes inside because she is too rough with the children.

The woman did offer to breed this 8 yr old dog for me, if all I wanted was a pup. The whole experience was very frustrating and I still drive past poor Ally every day. I'm sorry that I even tried because I feel worse knowing now that she's been hooked to the box for 8 years.

 

So, do what you will, but do whats right for the dog. The lucky dogs go to shelters or rescues but the unlucky ones get to stay 'part of the family' and live their lives on a chain.

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I have a 13 week old female Boder Collie and we are really struggling w/ her. Got her from an Amish breeder who does work their dogs on their farm. Informed breeder that we had 3 small children all under the age of 5 and they assured us she would be a fine pet. Was excited about puppy seeing as all the studies rave about the intelligence of the Boder collies, how they love to play fetch and frisbee and are so loving and wonderful. Unfortunately we are not seeing very much of that. She pretty much cannot be around the children as she is constantly herding them, nipping at them and biting despite every kind of punishment from gently re directing to popping her nose! She basically cannot be around the children b/c the slightest movement like just walking across the room starts her biting etc. As for exercising her she has no interest in fetch, she will chase the ball and herd it as it rolls but will not pick it up and retrieve. She will run around w/ a soccer ball which we have found to be the one pleasant activity w/ her. I have tried taking her to the park and she is horrible on the leash but again I cannot let her off the leash as she terrorizes the children. I know that some basic obedience classes are necessarity for usual puppy problems like growling over her food, teaching her basic commands etc. But before I spend the money I want to know if it is worth it...can she be a pet vs a working dog on a farm? My vet says that since she came from a working line of Border Collies her herding instinct may be so strong that it would be difficult and even border on cruel to break her from it. Is that true? How can I find out if she will be able to blend w/ our family as a pet? Is this just typical Border collie puppy behavior, should I move forward w/ obedience classes? Please help!!!

 

Adpatto, i haven't read all the posts in this thread, but i also have a Border Collie puppy, he is now 15 weeks old, and i've had him since 6 weeks old.

 

I have two children, both girls, one aged 4 and the other 8. Sam isn't my first Border, i've owned a few when younger, so know the breed a little.

 

I established myself as the Alpha Male so to speak from day one, he knew i was the boss. However, he still tried to nip and terrorise the children and also the wife! The wife couldn't do anything with him, however as soon as i walked into the room he would come to me and be gentle and do as he was told. However, although he had to know i was boss, i showed him lots of love and affection also.

 

9 weeks on and he is a different dog. He is a lot better behaved around the children. However, i take him for a 6-8 mile walk/run every morning before woek, and also normally a bike ride in the evening, together with a few games of fetch during the day.

 

However, Sam didn't naturally know how to play fetch when i first got him, he was exactly the same as your dog sounds, he would chase after something when moving but wouldn't bring it back. I discovered something very useful whilst pairing my socks up one evening. He was trying to get the socks out of my hand, so i threw them for him and he ran and picked them up. I then called him and encouraged him to bring them back to me and when he did it for the first time i made such a fuss of him and rewarded him with lots of treats.

 

He now plays fetch great, i tell him to lay down before i throw the ball, and he lays down with is chin on his paws and stays until i throw the ball and he runs great lengths and brings the ball back to me and lays down at my feet and drops the ball. I then reward him with a treat and lots of affection.

 

What i'm trying to get at is although Sam fetches well now, he didn't initially, i had to teach him it, although they are a very intelligent breed, i think many will agree that this intelligence is an intelligence to be able to learn, they are not intelligent in the sence that they allready know how to fetch. Although they naturally have herding instinct.....

 

I think it would be a great shame if you let your puppy go, please work with him and he will reward you i am sure. :rolleyes:

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Adpatto, i haven't read all the posts in this thread, but i also have a Border Collie puppy, he is now 15 weeks old, and i've had him since 6 weeks old.

 

9 weeks on and he is a different dog. He is a lot better behaved around the children. However, i take him for a 6-8 mile walk/run every morning before woek, and also normally a bike ride in the evening, together with a few games of fetch during the day.

 

Correct me if I am reading this wrong...you take a 15 week old pup out for 6 to 8 miles "everday" and "bike" him in the evening? Please, tell me I am misunderstanding what you wrote!

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BorderCollieSam,

Just a word of caution: a 6-8 mile run/walk is an awful lot to ask of a 4-month-old whose joints are still growing. Add on to that a bike ride (how far and how fast?) in the evenings, and you may well be overdoing it. At the least I think you might want to consult your vet before doing that much activity with that young a dog. Too much stress on young bones and joints at this age could come back to haunt you, maybe sooner, maybe later.

 

Sorry for the hijack, but I'd hate to see you inadvertently injure your puppy.

 

J.

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I'd like to address "keeping" the border collie and what that means.

 

Krisk and I recently tried to buy a dog out of a bad situation. It was an 8 yr old female, tied to a tin box on a length of chain in all kinds of weather. I drive past almost daily and the dog is never off the chain. The family has 4 children under the age of ten and I'd often see the kids out playing the yard and the dog at the end of her chain, obviously wanting to join the fun. Coming home from work late at night, I'd see the dog at the end of her chain, gazing at the house windows, watching her family inside.

 

Krisk and I rounded up a few hundred bucks and I approached the owner about purchasing the dog. I told her where I lived and she knew my farm. No way was she interested in selling because Ally was the kids dog and she would never sell their pet. It was apparent that the kids didnt give a hoot about their pet. I did ask, and No, the dog never comes inside because she is too rough with the children.

The woman did offer to breed this 8 yr old dog for me, if all I wanted was a pup. The whole experience was very frustrating and I still drive past poor Ally every day. I'm sorry that I even tried because I feel worse knowing now that she's been hooked to the box for 8 years.

 

So, do what you will, but do whats right for the dog. The lucky dogs go to shelters or rescues but the unlucky ones get to stay 'part of the family' and live their lives on a chain.

 

That makes me want to cry. Heartbreaking.

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I cannot imagine raising three children under 5 and a pup. I suppose it can be done by a person who has enormous energy and patience, but the answer to the OP's question from me, someone who raised two children, but had raised a pup two years before is re-home the pup ASAP.

 

I also cannot imagine any active outgoing pup playing with a small group of babies/toddlers and not getting carried away by the energy. The high voices alone could send them into stressland.

 

I also agree with those who suggest a rescue as opposed to the breeder, simply because I don't think a responsible breeder would ever suggest this was a good thing.

 

I know your oldest might find it heartbreaking to give up the puppy, but could also be a very teachable moment in that you are doing what is best for this little animal kind of thing and, you know the shelter may have a suitable adult who is wonderful with children and you could do a trade. I think dogs and kids are a wonderful thing and I think a puppy and kids can be too, but the kids have to be of an age that they can understand and control their own impulses first.

 

I say this with the utmost respect for you posting on the board. Best of luck.

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