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I have a 13 week old female Boder Collie and we are really struggling w/ her. Got her from an Amish breeder who does work their dogs on their farm. Informed breeder that we had 3 small children all under the age of 5 and they assured us she would be a fine pet. Was excited about puppy seeing as all the studies rave about the intelligence of the Boder collies, how they love to play fetch and frisbee and are so loving and wonderful. Unfortunately we are not seeing very much of that. She pretty much cannot be around the children as she is constantly herding them, nipping at them and biting despite every kind of punishment from gently re directing to popping her nose! She basically cannot be around the children b/c the slightest movement like just walking across the room starts her biting etc. As for exercising her she has no interest in fetch, she will chase the ball and herd it as it rolls but will not pick it up and retrieve. She will run around w/ a soccer ball which we have found to be the one pleasant activity w/ her. I have tried taking her to the park and she is horrible on the leash but again I cannot let her off the leash as she terrorizes the children. I know that some basic obedience classes are necessarity for usual puppy problems like growling over her food, teaching her basic commands etc. But before I spend the money I want to know if it is worth it...can she be a pet vs a working dog on a farm? My vet says that since she came from a working line of Border Collies her herding instinct may be so strong that it would be difficult and even border on cruel to break her from it. Is that true? How can I find out if she will be able to blend w/ our family as a pet? Is this just typical Border collie puppy behavior, should I move forward w/ obedience classes? Please help!!!

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It sounds like you expect a 13 week old puppy to be a well behaved pet just because it's an "intelligent" breed. Why don't you contact the breeder and see if you can return her? It really sounds like you're in over your head. No offense intended!

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She is only 13 weeks old, so I'd give her some time, dog have to learn all this stuff, they aren't born with it. I personally don't have kids, but I know they can live with kids, even the working bred dogs. I am sure there are others with this experience that will chime in.

 

Here is a good link on "mouthing" http://www.arf.ab.ca/learn/trainingtips-mouthing.shtml

 

I definately think obedience classes are in order for sure! But you have to remember, they will only work if you do your homework. Classes aren't magic, you really have to work at this stuff. You have to teach her boundries and rules as to what is acceptable and what is not and you have to be consistent. It also sounds like she needs to learn how to walk on a leash too. A long line might be useful at the park since you'll still have control over her, but she won't be as frustrated and the whole 6' she's only allowed to wander. You're children will also have to learn to be calm too.

Back to obedience classes, you'll have to make sure you find a good positive trainer. Here is a list of things you should look for in a trainer...the list is geared at agility, but it pretty much applies across the board.

 

Look for an instructor who:

- competes with their own dogs on a regular basis. Not just once a year, but someone who is getting out and seeing other people compete. Things are changing so fast in the dog training world that you have to stay on top of things!

- continually educates himself or herself by attending seminars to upgrade their own skills.

- is willing to help you train the things you want and doesn’t force the students to do it “my way or the highway”. An instructor needs to be versatile and creative and open minded.

- uses positive training techniques that do not bully the dogs into doing the exercises.

- has a positive relationship with his/her own dogs. Look at how their dogs perform...do you like what you see?

- has a way of handling that you admire. Do you like what they do? There are many different handling styles...choose someone whose style you can relate to to be your instructor.

- can not only “do it” but they can “teach it”. Can they break the skills down enough that you understand and are able to teach your own dog? If they cannot impart their knowledge, how much use will they be to you as a student trying to learn the skills?

 

Hope others have helpful info too. Good Luck.

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Question for you, how did you expect this puppy to behaive? And when this puppy deviated from the expectation what did you do about it? Also, are you expecting to much thinking that the puppy will behaive within your expectations without guidence? To have a dog is to be a dog trainer, just like to have children is to be a parent, you can't decide to train only when convienent much the same as you can't parent only when it convienent.

 

I'm not trying to be tough or mean, just trying to get you to think a little bit about your situation.

 

Deb

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Do you have a crate for your puppy? She needs down time and safe place to be when you can't supervise. A crate is your friend.

 

I wouldn't just throw a 13 week puppy in with 3 young kids and expect things to work out beautifully from the get go. Have you had a dog before? Puppies and kids need training on how to get along together. And as a mother of 15 & 16 year old who have been raised with dogs, the kids need just as much, if not more than the dogs.

 

How are the kids around her? It they run and scream, it's a normal puppy reaction to run and nip, think about how puppies play. It doesn't have anything to do with coming from a working background any puppy is capable of doing that.

 

Yes, definitely go for the puppy classes. Leash training isn't something that dogs are born with. Dogs need consistent training from all members of your family. This is a commitment and it will take work, but it's worth it. If you don't want to put the time and effort into this, contact the breeder and see if they will take her back.

 

Laura

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It sounds like you expect a 13 week old puppy to be a well behaved pet just because it's an "intelligent" breed. Why don't you contact the breeder and see if you can return her? It really sounds like you're in over your head. No offense intended!

 

I think I am being misunderstood...I don't have high expectations it is just that all the info I have read on BC suggests that there are some that are so innately wired to herd that they cannot be trained to live in a home environment. I have never had this breed and upon hearing this I was concerned that maybe I got a dog that will not be happy in my home. I do not want to give up on her I just want to do what is best for her.

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Do you have a crate for your puppy? She needs down time and safe place to be when you can't supervise. A crate is your friend.

 

I wouldn't just throw a 13 week puppy in with 3 young kids and expect things to work out beautifully from the get go. Have you had a dog before? Puppies and kids need training on how to get along together. And as a mother of 15 & 16 year old who have been raised with dogs, the kids need just as much, if not more than the dogs.

 

How are the kids around her? It they run and scream, it's a normal puppy reaction to run and nip, think about how puppies play. It doesn't have anything to do with coming from a working background any puppy is capable of doing that.

 

Yes, definitely go for the puppy classes. Leash training isn't something that dogs are born with. Dogs need consistent training from all members of your family. This is a commitment and it will take work, but it's worth it. If you don't want to put the time and effort into this, contact the breeder and see if they will take her back.

 

Laura

 

That is a huge concern, we have had Labs and never had any problems w/ biting. I understand that puppies and kids are a tricky situation and I realize she will nip at times but is it normal that she truly can never be in the room w/ the kids w/out biting them even when they are simply watching TV or walking across the room??

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I think I am being misunderstood...I don't have high expectations it is just that all the info I have read on BC suggests that there are some that are so innately wired to herd that they cannot be trained to live in a home environment. I have never had this breed and upon hearing this I was concerned that maybe I got a dog that will not be happy in my home. I do not want to give up on her I just want to do what is best for her.

 

I don't think that you're being misunderstood at all. Border Collies are not so innately wired that they can't be in a home environment. I have several working ones who have no problem with kids, hanging out at work, riding in the car, sleeping in the yard when I'm in the garden. And yes, I have a couple hundred sheep and some cattle on just the other side of the fence.

 

If you had done this research before you got the dog, it wouldn't be so frustrating to those of us who go thru this question several times a year on the boards. You're talking about a 13 week old puppy. To put it another way, look at a 2 year child. Do you think that talking like a baby, eating with her fingers, not being potty trained...is how she's going to be all her life? Of course not. I'm not trying to be mean, but give the dog some time and training before you think that might have to give up on her.

 

Laura

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We have 2 Labs and a Border Collie. The difference in their reactions to movement and children was shocking. Alex, my Border Collie, was horrible. It took time and effort to teach her how to act around kids. The kids also had to learn how to act around a dog. My advice is to ask yourself if you have time for a 4th kid, ( a puppy is a kid), and if the answer is yes then definitely obedience class for starters. If the answer is no then see if the breeder can take her back.

 

Esox

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Listening to your situation it doesn't sound like you need a puppy period. It's not the the breed or "herding" type, its the fact that its a young, active, living being that's going to need as much time or more than the human kids you already have. There is only so much time in day, and you're lightyears behind on having the skills needed to grow this puppy into a great adult pet. This is not an insult, this is just fact.

 

The Amish farmer was likely telling you the truth, because too him a pup and a few kids is easy. The pup would have gotten tons of daily outdoor exercise, some other dogs to play with, and it would have gotten, whether the positive training gurus like hearing it or not, a swift kick in the butt if it tried biting and nipping any humans.

 

Nope I don't think the latter will fix *your* pup. Because it's the whole thing...the lots of exercise, daily structure....that counts more than the discipline.

 

Return the puppy to the breeder, mop up the tears, and for your next attempt I suggest going through a reputable rescue for a dog that is adult and already totally relaxed around kids. You will still have to supervise and learn a lot about living with dogs, but it might actually be *fun. When the kids are older, and you more experienced, you can reconsider a younger dog the next time.

 

Definately not the breed. I daresay you'd be having this much trouble and more with non-Border Collies puppies.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I am being misunderstood...I don't have high expectations it is just that all the info I have read on BC suggests that there are some that are so innately wired to herd that they cannot be trained to live in a home environment. I have never had this breed and upon hearing this I was concerned that maybe I got a dog that will not be happy in my home. I do not want to give up on her I just want to do what is best for her.
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I agree that you're over your head to have a puppy, period - border collie or not.

 

I work 8 - 10 hour days, and got an adult dog a couple years ago because I knew I didn't have the time to be at home and give a puppy what it needed. My adult dog adjusted beautifully to my life: he stayed home alone from day 1 without chewing or doing anything crazy. Had I gotten a puppy, I would have had puppy problems like chewing, nipping, biting, herding, peeing, barking, etc., etc., etc..

 

Sounds like you have very small kids and don't have the time or energy to give the puppy the training it deserves. That's not a crime. It may have been an optimistic error in judgment to choose a BC when you have very small kids, but you can remedy the situation by choosing correctly at this point. Return the pup, or get it to a home where they have nothing but time and energy to devote to correctly training a high-energy puppy. When you do decide to get a dog for your kids, I absolutely agree that you should get an adult rescue who is proven good with kids. (My neighbors have a second-hand dog who lets the kids climb on her, sit on her, pull her ears, etc., etc..)

 

Small kids don't need a puppy - and rarely do parents of small kids "need" a puppy, either.

 

Mary

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I think I am being misunderstood...I don't have high expectations it is just that all the info I have read on BC suggests that there are some that are so innately wired to herd that they cannot be trained to live in a home environment.

 

Where did you read this?

 

My 16-week old puppy is out of two herding dogs, and has herding instinct. He's living happily in my home as a companion.

 

The key is constant, consistent training and plenty of exercise combined with working on an "off-switch" inside the house. You say you've tried "everything". You need to stick to one method and be consistent with it. 13 weeks is the perfect age to sign up for a puppy class, where you'll learn many basics of behaviour inside the home, and your puppy will have socialisation time with other dogs and people, which is critical at 13 weeks.

 

Finnegan is only a few weeks older than your puppy, and he still has a LOT of work to do on house manners. It will not happen overnight. Have small training sessions many times a day, and consistantly praise good behaviour all day long with a clicker and rewards. Involve your children in the training, teach them what the puppy is and isn't allowed to do.

 

Searching these boards will give you a WEALTH of information on training, behaviour problems, you name it.

 

ETA: I also agree with what folks have said. If you feel you cannot devote the time that your puppy needs, please speak to the breeder about responsibly rehoming her.

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I have to say if you succeed at this you are a stronger person than I am. I can't imagine having three children under 5, that to me is at least two jobs!

 

When I got my pup I had days that I didn't think I was going to make it and I only have 1 child, a teen. I actually shed lots of tears wondering if this was for me. If you've never raised a puppy this is not going to be easy. I'm not saying you can't do it, it's just a lot of work and time.

 

We started Murphy with a crate and used it alot, sometimes I felt guilty at how much. :D . He is now almost 14 months old and the change is HUGE. The 14 months went fast, but I couldn't begin to count the hours I spent working with him. It's hard to believe he is the same dog, but it has taken a lot of time and training to get him where he's at now, and we still have a loooong way to go :rolleyes:.

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Hello adpatto,

 

I wholeheartedly agree with those who have suggested that having ANY puppy (much less a Border Collie puppy) in your household is NOT a good idea. You said that you have three children under five years of age, and I can't imagine that you would have the time or the energy to raise a puppy. Please don't get me wrong, I commend you for your efforts. But, raising a puppy takes time that you probably do not have with three toddlers in the house. My suggestion is to either return the puppy to the breeder or contact the nearest Border Collie Rescue organization to relinquish the puppy. Then, when your children are older, add an adult dog to your family, one that is already well-behaved with children.

 

Regards,

nancy

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I hope I’m not sounding too harsh but you have three young children under the age of 5. I don’t have children but I’m sure they take an incredible about of time and energy. You also have a 13 week old puppy who also needs your time and energy. I have to wonder if this puppy has come into your life at the wrong time. It's ok if you decide that. They are very smart dogs. They need a lot of exercise and much mental stimulation. All puppies need patience and structure. Maybe now just isn’t the right time. Maybe you would be better off with an adult.

 

I believe Border Collies can live in a family setting. I have one who simply loves children. ALL CHILDREN. She can barely pass a child without politely saying hi. Did she come with this behavior? No. The first time she met my best friend’s little girl Georgia pulled out of her collar, ran after a running Addie and tackled her. No one was hurt (thank Heaven), the little girl was scared & I was embarrassed. My friend was beyond understanding. She just said “You deal with your girl and I’ll deal with mine. We’re gonna have to teach them how to behave with each other”. Did I mention what a great friend this woman is?

 

If you’re committed to keeping the pup I would strongly recommend puppy obedience classes. Try to teach your pup something new each day. Silly things, useful things…doesn’t matter. You have to keep her mind busy. That’s probably more important that physical activity. And get her a crate. Just like a child can get overtired and out of hand, so can the pup. I’m sure everyone could benefit from a time out now and then.

 

You’re also going to have to teach the children how to behave with the puppy. That’s going to be a lot of work too. Sounds like they’re still babies (figuratively speaking) themselves. Growing up, I had a German Shepard for an older ‘brother’. If I heard it once, I heard it a thousand times: “If you don’t quit antagonizing that dog, he’s going to bite you and it’s going to be all your fault. You’ll have no one to blame but yourself!” My dog did bite me when I was 5. He didn’t break the skin (thank you for your patience, Snoopy.) He did not get in trouble. I got a spanking, a cold pack for my eye and sent to my room. I was a very lucky girl.

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I think I am being misunderstood...I don't have high expectations it is just that all the info I have read on BC suggests that there are some that are so innately wired to herd that they cannot be trained to live in a home environment. I have never had this breed and upon hearing this I was concerned that maybe I got a dog that will not be happy in my home. I do not want to give up on her I just want to do what is best for her.

My first Purebred Border Collie had a pretty intense desire to herd everything. Our 2 kids were a bit older than yours - about 5 & 7. I told them to ignore her unless she nipped. If she nipped, they should give her a swat/kick - and we talked and practiced what an acceptable 'kick' was...basically, kick your bare ankle. If you can feel it but it doesn't hurt, that's about right. It took a day for her to figure out that nips were bad.

 

Leila had to learn that the kids could take care of themselves, and that nips were NOT tolerated. Before long, when she became really pissed at the kids, she would turn her head to one side and gnash her teeth. And then behave.

 

Your kids may be too young for that to work. If so - and if no one has a better solution - return her ASAP so she can go to a family better prepared to handle her. It doesn't mean either you or the pup are 'bad'. It just means that the best match of personalities isn't there. For example, my current <5 month old BC male is less nippy than our previous BC. Jack is glad to play with our 3 year old granddaughter, but has shown no nip around her. Leila was a great pet (and was great when we had a baby), but she had a lot more nip in her personality. Given how obnoxious our granddaughter gets, Leila would probably have bitten her by now. Jack just runs away (and our older Aussie knocks her down, which seems to have taught her some manners around dogs - finally!)

 

That said, puppies (and Border Collie puppies) CAN mix just fine. The kids may get a few scratches and tooth marks. They will survive. And ALL dogs need to understand nipping (biting) humans is a no-no. My Aussie came from a foster who had 3 dogs of her own, a total of 7 puppies she was fostering, and 3 kids under 6. It most definitely CAN be done.

 

BTW - pics of Leila with our son & later with our baby are here.

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Our 2 kids were a bit older than yours - about 5 & 7. I told them to ignore her unless she nipped. If she nipped, they should give her a swat/kick - and we talked and practiced what an acceptable 'kick' was...basically, kick your bare ankle. If you can feel it but it doesn't hurt, that's about right. It took a day for her to figure out that nips were bad.

 

Leila had to learn that the kids could take care of themselves, and that nips were NOT tolerated. Before long, when she became really pissed at the kids, she would turn her head to one side and gnash her teeth. And then behave.

 

 

I have had Border collies longer than I have had my children, now aged 10 and 12. Getting a pup when you have pre-school aged kids is very, very difficult. Where do have the hours in the day for all of it? I sure didn't, and your kids need to come first.

 

But on the topic of manners, dogs, and kids and bsms99's post: I just can't resist getting myself in trouble and shooting off my mouth for a bit. I teach my dogs how to behave around kids, and I taught my kids how to behave around dogs. I must say that I would never allow my kids to kick or hit a dog. It's totally unnecessary and sets a very bad precedent. (I never do, either, but that is a matter for a training thread, not a general topic.) I also would not allow my dog to "gnash it's teeth" at my kids, if I understand what you mean by the phrase. Neither did I allow my kids to do things that would "really piss (the dogs) off."

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I tend to agree with the others. 3 kids under five years old is a lot of work, add one dog, any breed and you've got yourself some trouble. You can't be everywhere at once. I waited until my kids were older, potty trained, and it was a lot easier. We had one good dog, then another, then another etc.....

 

Take care of your family first. You have time for a dog later. If the breeder doesn't take it back, you found yourself one bad breeder and people on here can help you place your dog.

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I have to say if you succeed at this you are a stronger person than I am. I can't imagine having three children under 5, that to me is at least two jobs!

 

When I got my pup I had days that I didn't think I was going to make it and I only have 1 child, a teen. I actually shed lots of tears wondering if this was for me. If you've never raised a puppy this is not going to be easy. I'm not saying you can't do it, it's just a lot of work and time.

 

We started Murphy with a crate and used it alot, sometimes I felt guilty at how much. :D . He is now almost 14 months old and the change is HUGE. The 14 months went fast, but I couldn't begin to count the hours I spent working with him. It's hard to believe he is the same dog, but it has taken a lot of time and training to get him where he's at now, and we still have a loooong way to go :rolleyes:.

 

Thank you so much for your kind response. I am actually shocked by how mean people on this site were in response to my question :D I did do research and felt this was a good dog for our family. I realize it is alot of work but I am energetic and I really thought a dog w/ lots of energy would be a perfect match for my kids who also have lots of energy :D I have merely become discouraged at the amount of biting and the fact that the kids can't seem to enjoy their pet the way I had envisioned. I do realize it is still very early and she is a puppy and they take work I just wanted to be sure in dealing w/ this unique breed that I was going to be able to train her and teach her. Many people on this site were very judgemental and harsh...definitely not what I needed to hear as I am trying my best to do the right thing. I came to this site hoping for some tips, encouragement and help and i must say that aside from a few of the responses I have been wholly disappointed! Thank you for your kindness, God Bless You!!

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It sounds like you expect a 13 week old puppy to be a well behaved pet just because it's an "intelligent" breed. Why don't you contact the breeder and see if you can return her? It really sounds like you're in over your head. No offense intended!

 

I hope you are nicer to your dog than you were to me! your response was definitely a deterrent to using this site again for help!

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She is only 13 weeks old, so I'd give her some time, dog have to learn all this stuff, they aren't born with it. I personally don't have kids, but I know they can live with kids, even the working bred dogs. I am sure there are others with this experience that will chime in.

 

Here is a good link on "mouthing" http://www.arf.ab.ca/learn/trainingtips-mouthing.shtml

 

I definately think obedience classes are in order for sure! But you have to remember, they will only work if you do your homework. Classes aren't magic, you really have to work at this stuff. You have to teach her boundries and rules as to what is acceptable and what is not and you have to be consistent. It also sounds like she needs to learn how to walk on a leash too. A long line might be useful at the park since you'll still have control over her, but she won't be as frustrated and the whole 6' she's only allowed to wander. You're children will also have to learn to be calm too.

Back to obedience classes, you'll have to make sure you find a good positive trainer. Here is a list of things you should look for in a trainer...the list is geared at agility, but it pretty much applies across the board.

 

Look for an instructor who:

- competes with their own dogs on a regular basis. Not just once a year, but someone who is getting out and seeing other people compete. Things are changing so fast in the dog training world that you have to stay on top of things!

- continually educates himself or herself by attending seminars to upgrade their own skills.

- is willing to help you train the things you want and doesn’t force the students to do it “my way or the highway”. An instructor needs to be versatile and creative and open minded.

- uses positive training techniques that do not bully the dogs into doing the exercises.

- has a positive relationship with his/her own dogs. Look at how their dogs perform...do you like what you see?

- has a way of handling that you admire. Do you like what they do? There are many different handling styles...choose someone whose style you can relate to to be your instructor.

- can not only “do it” but they can “teach it”. Can they break the skills down enough that you understand and are able to teach your own dog? If they cannot impart their knowledge, how much use will they be to you as a student trying to learn the skills?

 

Hope others have helpful info too. Good Luck.

 

Thank you so much for your helpfulness...I wish everyone on this site was as helpful as you and less harsh and judgemental. God Bless...

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I don't think that you're being misunderstood at all. Border Collies are not so innately wired that they can't be in a home environment. I have several working ones who have no problem with kids, hanging out at work, riding in the car, sleeping in the yard when I'm in the garden. And yes, I have a couple hundred sheep and some cattle on just the other side of the fence.

 

If you had done this research before you got the dog, it wouldn't be so frustrating to those of us who go thru this question several times a year on the boards. You're talking about a 13 week old puppy. To put it another way, look at a 2 year child. Do you think that talking like a baby, eating with her fingers, not being potty trained...is how she's going to be all her life? Of course not. I'm not trying to be mean, but give the dog some time and training before you think that might have to give up on her.

 

Laura

 

I actually did research quite a bit so excuse me for not being perfect at this. I came to this site b/c I realized I needed help, what I didn't need was judging and discouragement!

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Question for you, how did you expect this puppy to behaive? And when this puppy deviated from the expectation what did you do about it? Also, are you expecting to much thinking that the puppy will behaive within your expectations without guidence? To have a dog is to be a dog trainer, just like to have children is to be a parent, you can't decide to train only when convienent much the same as you can't parent only when it convienent.

 

I'm not trying to be tough or mean, just trying to get you to think a little bit about your situation.

 

Deb

 

 

I am really taken aback w/ your comments and very hopeful that you don't have very many people come to you for dog advice!! I didn't expect my dog to be perfect I just expected my children to enjoy their pet a little more than they have. When the puppy deviated I came to this site for advice and what I got was your harsh response which was not helpful in the least!! I don't need your comments to get me to think about the situation, obviously I thought about it which is what prompted me to search for help. Unfortunately I got your response and was very turned off by what seems to be an otherwise helpful site.

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