Soda-pop Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Hi all, I am interested in ya'lls input on this "issue". First a bit of history--Soda is 4 a y/o spayed female that's a rescue. Her previous owners got her from a pet store. She doesn't have a ton of talent, so keep that in mind. We've been working on driving. She gets stuck in her down (which is strange, because she doesn't have a ton of eye) and cannot/willnot walk into the sheep without a lot of prompting, woowooing, ggggggget 'ems. However, when fetching she is *notoriously* pushy and likes to get all up in sheep butt and push the past me to a point. She, left to her own tendencies, likes to push them past me then gather them back up, then push, then gather, etc. Annoying. But, getting her to drive the sheep off me more than 2 feet is impossible, right now. What I've been doing when working on driving is setting the sheep out a few yards away, then sending Soda out to like 4 or 5 o'clock and having her walk up. So really, this is two issues. I'd love for her to PACE herself without constantly having to down her and but I'd like for her to have the power to walk into pressure for the drive. I hope this was clear, but I suspect it's not. Thanks for tolerating a noob! Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I bet you're working really doggy/sour sheep and that's why you're having trouble. Fresher sheep would likely help a lot. If they move off easily, the dog can learn to follow and then go on to learn to push on the drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Hi all, I am interested in ya'lls input on this "issue". First a bit of history--Soda is 4 a y/o spayed female that's a rescue. Her previous owners got her from a pet store. She doesn't have a ton of talent, so keep that in mind. We've been working on driving. She gets stuck in her down (which is strange, because she doesn't have a ton of eye) and cannot/willnot walk into the sheep without a lot of prompting, woowooing, ggggggget 'ems. However, when fetching she is *notoriously* pushy and likes to get all up in sheep butt and push the past me to a point. She, left to her own tendencies, likes to push them past me then gather them back up, then push, then gather, etc. Annoying. But, getting her to drive the sheep off me more than 2 feet is impossible, right now. What I've been doing when working on driving is setting the sheep out a few yards away, then sending Soda out to like 4 or 5 o'clock and having her walk up. So really, this is two issues. I'd love for her to PACE herself without constantly having to down her and but I'd like for her to have the power to walk into pressure for the drive. I hope this was clear, but I suspect it's not. Thanks for tolerating a noob! Any suggestions? First of all. She's not doing anything different than most gathering dogs do. Plain and simple, she loves to fetch the sheep to you and isn't interested at all in driving. So, what has to happen now is you have to get her to fetch the sheep to you, then send her around until she is on the same side of the sheep as you are and ask her to walk up while you pat your leg and get her to come into the sheep. Lots of encouragement needed here and when she has approached the sheep enough to get them moving with your help you walk beside her, still encouraging here to keep walking into the sheep. Lots of "atta girls, you walk up", in a very happy, confident manner. Go with her for a bit (15 or 20 yards) and then leave the sheep and call her off. DO NOT LET HER FETCH THE SHEEP TO YOU!!!! If she likes to push the sheep past you on the fetch then let her and you turn around and ask her as she goes by to "walk up" and let her start driving again with you by her side. As she gets the idea then you start to drop back a little so she starts to understand that she can do it by herself. IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT THAT YOU DO NOT LET HER FETCH AT THE END OF THE DRIVING EXERCIZE AS THIS WILL DEFEAT THE IDEA THAT IT IS OK TO PUSH SHEEP AWAY AND TEACH HER, TO THE CONTRARY, THAT IT IS OK TO KEEP BRINGING THEM BACK. If you want to do gathering then bring her off the sheep when you finnish your drive and walk back down the field and send her to gather. Try this for a while and when you get her to the point that you can back off quite a ways there are a few more things that will work to get her to drive. Remember, patience, no anger, and lots of encouragement! Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I, too, have similar issues with my Celt. These answers have been very helpful as they reinforce what my trainer and I have been trying to do with him with some success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I do the same things as Bob but I've found it was easier if when starting to work on the drive I don't even let them flank to start the drive. I set sheep out ahead of us and start walking up on them together about 10-15 feet apart from each other. Keeping fetching and flanking out of the game at first. I do that because when we go though the gate, the dogs all ready for a flank, I keep her close and start my drive right then. No flank at all. If I have to get sheep, I send a different dog when doing this, as I find it easier if I keep the dog's mind off fetching for that part of the lesson. We can work of fetching later, and I make sure we take a break in between driving and fetching for dogs that are having a hard time comprehending it's a new thing we're learning. Not when first starting but when working on a beginning drive. Someitmes we have to work on the drive together for quite some time before I can fade back, then other dogs, get the idea and let me fade off quickly. I've also found that I start driving sooner than later, as soon as a situation presents it's self while training, that way they get the idea as quickly as possible that there is more to do than fetch. That's easy to do if they like to push the sheep past you on the fetch, I turn around and make it a drive from that point. So we do get to work on it pretty quickly. If we're really struggling, I'll use a fence line and myself to keep them from turning it into a flank. patience is a big word! It's funny, Like Bob mentioned, some dogs are natural gatherers, some are natural drivers. My first real stockdog was a driving fool and we still struggle on the fetch. My latest pup is a gathering dog. To combine the 2 would be awesome! Good luck, it'll come slowly. But like Bob said, for now don't let the beginnings of a drive turn into a fetch, or you'll have one more thing to stuggle with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Good points already made, and I think the heaviness of the sheep can be a big factor for a young dog who doesn't have a lot of confidence driving. One thing I've always tried to do with my youngsters is find practical tasks that involve whatever it is I'm working on. So right now, the youngsters are all getting work pushing sheep off of feed bunks. At first they do want to head, and I just have to plan time into my morning chores for a little schooling, but I've always had good luck with doing training by using tasks with a purpose. (I use the other techniques described here, like walking forward a little ways with the dog, etc., to get it started, but I try to do so in the context of a practical task). I know this might not be easy for people who don't have sheep and must go to a trainer, but it might help others who have their own sheep (and you can probably get your trainer to help you set up practical tasks as well). If the flock is particularly hungry or difficult, I would also take an experienced dog as back up "power" behind the youngster. The experienced dog does not get in and push the sheep away unless absolutely necessary, but can help prevent overly pushy sheep from taking advantage of a dog who's just learning its job. Just another approach to training that might work for some folks. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I agree with Julie, both about the practical tasks and the backup dog. For me, one of the best situations is when putting the sheep up at night--they know where they are going, and will do so readily, so I just have the dog "follow" them as they head for that gate. As long as the dog understands "walk up" and "lie down" in an off-balance position, it works great. I also start this as early as possible with a young dog, as I feel it plants the seed in their minds that it's OK to be in that position, relative to the stock and you, and be working the stock. Makes formal driving instruction much easier down the road, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Along the lines of what Julie and Anna said, although I don't really do any "holding off" (only occasionally when making the cattle wait to go through a gate), we do have the first-calf heifers to take to the feeding area each evening. Once we get them heading that way, they go willingly and it is an opportunity for the dog (Celt, now that there are young calves, and Bute when there are not young calves) to "drive" animals that are willing to head that way. With Celt, though, I find that he is either getting a bit close still sometimes (when they are moving slowly or just beginning moving) but, once they get moving more willingly (and particularly when they get moving faster, oftentimes), he tends to really hang back. I think it's partly that he is unsure and hesitant to move on up towards them confidently (and a bit further away from me than is his comfort zone), but at least he is not charging around to the heads at these times (like he used to do frustratingly often). But, since he is watching and reading them, and often moves himself laterally in response to their movement (when one or more animals or pairs tends to drift off the reasonably direct and desired pathway towards the feeders), perhaps he is doing okay. He just seems out of contact to me but is still apparently endeavoring to be working them. Am I confusing (confused?) or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 For me, one of the best situations is when putting the sheep up at night--they know where they are going, and will do so readily, so I just have the dog "follow" them as they head for that gate. Yep, this is how Lark started driving. The sheep knew they were headed for the night pen and went willingly, and Lark "pushed" along behind. It made her feel like she was 10 feet tall! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amc Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Sue, glad you are having success with Celt's drive. I think it is a big milestone when dogs learn to control the pace of the drive somewhat by flanking out laterally, just enough to slow the leader(s) but not enough to change their direction. Some dogs, especially when driving a bigger bunch, like to know and feel what's going on up front, plus they do retain control of the herd. See if you think that's what Celt is doing. As a corollary, some dogs will cleverly inch around on a flank in hopes of heading them, so be alert for that too! Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Amy - I think you hit it on the head about Celt as I believe both these things are going on. He particularly started out inching out and making a break to get to the heads as he is a heading/gathering dog by nature (the top trainer who worked with his father never could get him to drive). He seems to be doing much better now but it is easy to see that he gets more anxious if it is stock that he is afraid of "losing". I have also contributed to the problem, I am sure, because I have tended to want him "right behind" the stock - at six o'clock, so to speak. That is not the right place to be because a dog needs to be slightly to the side generally - depending on the draw and so that the animals can see the dog and the dog can see the leaders, especially with a bigger group, like our 10 heifers and calves. So, perhaps I have contributed to the problem by trying to put him where *I* thought he should be and making him anxious that he couldn't see the leaders and control them properly. It was a situation that got worse and worse - he inches around, I call him back to where he is not able to work right, so he inches out and then flies around to the heads in a panic, maybe even diving. With Kathy Knox's suggestions and Renee's training help, he is doing much better. Genetically, I don't think he will ever be a confident dog or a good driving dog - but I do think he (we) are making progress, and that pleases me. His handler is often his greatest impediment to progress! Thanks for everyone's suggestions and comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda-pop Posted March 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Thanks for everyone's input. I learned really quickly to make sure I have nice light sheep or it's a spectacular fail ! I think setting up practical problems is a great idea--I don't have my own sheep by my trainer is pretty amenable to that sort of thing. Thanks again, all. Paige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Great responses for our situation as well. I was wanting Sam to follow straight behind the sheep (I only had 4 in the round pen). He kept trying to flair out to the side and then head them. Thanks for the warnings of what might happen in the future. Haven't worked the sheep since before lambing; hope to though when summer gets here. N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Narita, I think it would be challenging to train driving in as small a space as a round pen because there's very little opportunity for getting much in the way of a straight line (except across the center of the pen), and you'd need really cooperative sheep to do that. Even my trained dogs will work off to the side to keep the sheep moving around the perimeter of a round pen, so the very nature of the round pen itself may well encourage your dog to work off to the side to control the heads. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Makes sense Julie. Hope to get out and work in a bigger area this weekend at our club's work day. N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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