Tuxedodog Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 My husband went to bring Buster in the other night and when he reached down to touch him Buster started screaming. We thought maybe he was soundly asleep and got scared, he had been running around and playing earlier in the evening. The next morning he didn' t want to go out and when he did, he just went and layed down by the gate. So off to the vet that morning, they took x-rays and blood and sent him home with a NSAID. The results came back Lymes and he was his old self after 1 dose of antibiotics and the anti-inflammatory. I was told to take him off the anti-inflammitory after 4 days, but this morning he was not as happy as he had been the past few days. I am going to start him back again tonight as my husband told me he was not as perky after we left the house. Anyone else have any experience with Lyme's? Buster is 10 and was on Advantix last summer, I was surprised that it showed up now since we are in PA and it is not tick season. I was just wondering how long to keep him on the NASAID or if I should give it a couple more days and try again to have him go without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Lyme is sneaky and you may just have missed any early signs of infection--that is, Buster may have been infected during tick season, had an acute infection that went unnoticed and now has more chronic symptoms. The best advice I can give (other than that the proper name is Lyme, no possessive) is to join Tick-L and ask the collective advice of those folks. Many vets don't treat aggressively enough once a diagnosis has been made, and given the nature of Lyme, it's best to hit it fast, hard, and long to get it under control. One of the Tick-L members has a great page of tick disease information here. On it you can find information on how to subscribe to Tick-L and also lots of other good information. I especially recommend the link to Gil. Ash's page on tick-borne diseases. The accepted treatment for many TBDs is doxycycline. Giving doxy at the dose recommended to nip this disease can lead to other issues for Buster, and you'll find that you might want to do some proactive things to help him deal with the treatment. For example, doxy is usually given in pill form and with food. Avoid the capsules as they can dissolve in the esophagus and cause damage. Doxy can also wreak havoc with normal GI flora, so most people also give their dogs probiotics while the dog is on a course of doxy. Anyway, there's lots more good information like that on the page I provided the link for. For specific questions, the folks on Tick-L (including at least one vet) are a great source of support and detailed information. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxedodog Posted March 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Thank you for the information. I read a ton of stuff years ago when the horse was diagnosed, but I was pretty sure some things had changed. I remember needing to keep the horse out of the sun for the 30 days he was on the doxy, but my vet says that is not necessary. I am off to join and read. thanks again. Buster's Mom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 FYI It is still recommended that you stay out of the sun while on Doxy. Maybe the hair on dogs protect them but if you have a pink skinned dog, I'd be careful. I always fed Mick half his meal then gave the doxy and let him eat the rest. He didn't have stomach issues but probiotics are a wonderful idea. If not that, maybe some yogurt. I also separated the NSAIDs from the doxy when giving them. To many meds on an already compromised tummy...better safe than sorry. Mick stayed on NSAIDS for a long time. Not as long as the doxy but quite some time. The protocol we used was 3 months for the Doxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxedodog Posted March 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Wow, 3 months, I will be following up with the vet about this. I am feeding him his Doxy in a precooked meatball with his dinner, so far no tummy problems. I guess I will wait until morning for the pain meds to keep them separate. I was told no dairy products with the Doxy, but I will get some probiotics if indicated. Buster is fussy about his food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Do ask your vet about the duration on the Doxy. Julie gave you some great info and having dealt with Erlichia (sp??) I know the min Doxy duration we were on and told about was 8 weeks. How long has your vet prescribed the Doxy for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Buster's Mom, The salient points from Gil Ash's page on the treatment of TBDs with doxy: The dosage we recommend on Tick List is an aggressive one: 5 mg. of doxy per pound of body weight given every 12 hours for 8 weeks. [emphasis added] For those who prefer to figure body weight in kilograms, this is approximately the same as 10 mg per kg, the difference being not enough to mention. In my opinion and that of everyone on Tick List, ehrlichiosis and Lyme must be hit hard the first time out and lower doses and/or shorter treatment times all too often mean recurrence. Unless your dog is one of the few that cannot take doxycycline or take it in this higher dose, my best advice to you is to insist on it. Each time ehrlichiosis or Lyme recurs, it's harder to stop or contain it. Caution: Do not give out-of-date doxycycline! Tetracycline drugs can cause kidney damage if given after their expiration dates. When giving doxycycline, be sure to give it with food, just before a meal or with it. Unlike other tetracyclines, doxy is not greatly affected by the calcium in dairy products; so, while you should err on the safe side and not feed a lot of them, it's not necessary to worry about poking a tablet in a small amount of cheese or slipping a capsule in a spoonful of yogurt if that will help get it down your dog. [emphasis added] Tablets appear to be easier on the dog. Capsules may stick in the esophagus and cause irritation if they dissolve and release the doxy there instead of in the stomach so, if you use capsules, butter them or coat them in grease to make them go down easily. Opening capsules or breaking tablets may also irritate the esophagus. If your dog is nauseated by being given the dose for a 12 hour period all at once, you can divide the dose and give half that amount twice in 12 hours, 4 half doses in 24 hours; as long as he gets all he needs in a day, that's all that counts. Always, however, give it with food. Doxycycline is an antibiotic. All antibiotics destroy or inhibit bacteria and don't differentiate "good" from "bad"; they wipe out beneficial bacteria in the dog's gut right along with the disease-causing organisms. It's a wise idea, then, to give the dog probiotics as long as he's taking doxycycline and for several weeks afterward to avoid the gastrointestinal problems that can develop if he's left without this help for eight weeks or more. Probiotics such as lactobacillus acidophilus are available in capsules in health food stores. Plain yogurt with active cultures is also useful but probably not as effective. Stoneyfield is one of the most recommended brands of yogurt. Be sure there is no flavoring or sugar in the kind you buy. Important! Give probiotics two hours "after" doxycycline. [emphasis added] Because doxy will curtail reproduction of the beneficial bacteria you've given your dog in the form of probiotics, you have to keep giving them after every dose. If you give probiotics before the doxy has cleared the dog's digestive system, you may as well not bother. So stick to the two hour delay and keep it up after every dose of the antibiotic until a few weeks after your dog's treatment is over. One last note on doxycycline. It is processed mainly through the liver and a dog with a damaged liver may not be able to take it. Amoxicillin, on the other hand, leaves through the kidneys and is an acceptable alternative to doxy as a treatment for Lyme as long as the dog doesn't have renal disease. (Amoxicillin is not effective against ehrlichiosis.) More than likely, your vet will have done a CBC and serum chemistry before putting your dog on any treatment for TBD and will have identified any problem areas to take into account, so this is just a heads up. If the dog still has problems with nausea, you can ask your vet about giving him Reglan (metaclopromide). Pepcid AC has also been said to help a lot with nausea. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Interesting reading. In people, probiotics are given one hour after ABX, not two; probably doesn't matter much, just give/take it. As a person who's taken doxy twice for Lyme and Bartonella, I can tell you just a couple minutes in the sun with exposed skin made it feel like I was being stabbed by many large gauge needles and that feeling stayed with me for weeks afterward. And unless I had a lot of food on my stomach, i.e. took it at the end of a good-sized meal on a full stomach, I would projectile vomit. Fun eh? lol "one dose" of Doxy is nowhere near enough, ask your vet again, and if he doesn't think more is necessary, consult a vet who knows something about TBDs. You can give ABX with NSAIDS, unless it make you/your dog nauseaus. You can't give ABX with antacids, vitamins or other supplements. G'luck - Lyme sucks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Solo took a long course of doxy for Lyme and had no problems with it whatsoever. Most remarkable to me was how quickly his energy levels rose after starting the antibiotics. I mean, I saw a major difference in like two days. Antibiotics in general should always be given in the maximum doses possible and for fairly extended periods of time, unless you just want to breed your own personal strains of superbacteria. Evolution in action. Who woulda thunk it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Interesting reading. In people, probiotics are given one hour after ABX, not two; probably doesn't matter much, just give/take it. Laura, I think the reason for the 2-hour delay is because dogs' digestive systems are different from ours. It's the reason many vets advise against using enteric-coated aspirin (at least the kind with the hard coating) in dogs--it's not digested the same way and so the dog won't get the proper relief the owner intends. Personally if the folks on Tick-L say to wait two hours, I think I'd wait two hours. It would be a shame to waste the effectiveness of the probiotics by giving it too soon. Melanie, My dogs have never had issues with doxycycline either (I had a cat who would get blow out diarrhea when given Clindamycin, which was unfortunate since he needed the abx for dental infection issues), but I've never had them on high doses for extended periods of time. Some of the information sounds rather "doomsday" but I'd rather be prepared for the potential bad side effects than surprised by them. I just wish vets treating TBDs paid more attention to the superbacteria thing.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxedodog Posted March 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 I guess I will have another consult with the vet. Buster is only getting his Doxy once a day for 30 days. I am hitting the petstore tonight and will pick up some probiotics for him. I did wonder when the vet said that the sun wouldn' t bother him, he is dark with a long coat. My horse is an Appy so he is pink and gray skinned, but the vet emphasized that he would not not only sunburn severly, it would damage his liver. I think I will talk to one of the other vets who I have seen before, I would hate to have something happen to him because I didn' t speak up. I think I will call the horse vet, too she is one of the best vets I have had, she listens and advises and I don' t feel that the treatment my pet receives is based on a shortfall /quota in her budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 That would make sense Julie. My dog didn't have problems with the doxy either. And I didn't have problems until the 2nd time I took it... then BLAPP!!! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxedodog Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I started giving Buster the probiotics, he seems like a happier dog. He must have felt wretched for awhile, we attributed his attitude to the loss of his buddy a couple years earlier, he never really adjusted, gotta wonder how long he had the Lyme disease. I do have another question, before I knew he was sick, I was taking him to the barn to run around with the labs that live there, is it okay for him to wear himself out? I like to give him a chance to spend some quality time with his barn buddies, it gives him an emotional boost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 When my dog had chronic Lymes, he couldn't hardly do anything. He did go out to the barn everyday, even if I carried him, and he would help me gather eggs. It was the only time he ever "saw" chickens and when he got better he became blind to them again. (it's a working dog thing) Then we'd go stare at the sheep for a bit and go back in. I let him do what he could but stayed very careful to keep energy levels as high as I could. He had it for almost a year. He was diag. with lots of other things before the 3rd vet decided to test for lyme. It took him almost that long to get better. He's not perfect now but a very useful and happy dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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