Gary M Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Question: How many dogs will die or suffer needlessly because of humans? Answer: All of them. In our current group of dogs that varies in breeds, sizes, needs and fears they all co-exist peacefully with us and each other. Sure there are snaps and snarls and brief disputes. You can?t have 5 to 8 indoor dogs without an occasional temper flare-up, but when I come home from work each day, it is to a group of wagging tails. They all have one thing in common. They were betrayed by their former people and eventually found their way into our household. Name a way that they were mistreated and we have had one that fits the bill. Bred out breeding bitches dumped at the pound when there useful days were over. Dumped on country roads far away from home. Chained outside for most of their lives then eventually relinquished to shelter that placed the dog to another home that chained the dog outside because it had no indoor manners then relinquished again to the same no kill shelter that chained it outside and was going to have him put down because he was unadoptable. Minutes away from death because the former owner was having him put down for snapping at the toddler. We have taken in mistreated dogs from the pound that we knew were a week, month or year away from death because of their mistreatment so they would have, if only for a short time, the joy and happiness of a life they should have always known. In our instant gratification now society, dogs are an all too frequent victim. I want because I want and do not bother me with the details. Then a poster comes on a board for the first time and without introduction, reason or extending as much as a courteous ?Please? or ?Thank You? wants or expects someone take their time to recommend a breeder. Someone tries to elicit information from them and only then does the poster apparently feel the need to be more specific in their needs. I?ll be the first to admit that my experience with dogs and people has made me embrace a person?s desire to get a dog with less than open arms. Add to that wanting a dog from a breeder and providing little to nothing in the way of background information, I sense a recipe for disaster. I questioned the mind set of the poster and those who would blindly respond based on knowing nothing about each other. Being jaded when it comes to people and dogs makes me ask that question. Just as there are good intentions, there are also bad ones. There may be 3 winners if the intentions are good. There is only 1 loser if they are not and that is the one that had no choice. But hey, you only answered a question, so your conscious is clear. There are members of this board that have stated they feel a breeder?s responsibility ends with the transfer of the dog. OK, then who bears the responsibility if the match up does work out. The owner or the enabler? I can tell you who bears the pain. Then we hear that if we do not treat the poster just right, they will just go to a puppy mill or BYB. Well if that is their moral compass, then nothing I do or say one way or the other will make a difference. If one chooses evil over good because good is harder to obtain, hopefully there is a special spot in Hell reserved for them. The other post I started was not to ridicule the OP of the original thread. My thread was borne out of frustration due to the number of generic non-specific ?recommend a breeder? posts. It was and is, as others have added to it, a parody of the ?find me my perfect dog? mentality some people have. We have all seen it, we have all heard it, so let us not pretend it does not exist. I am probably wrong, and no doubt will be told the same, but I have never viewed this board as an outlet for, or recommendation of breeders. Good breeders, and yes I believe there are good, responsible breeders, can be found by those that are looking for one. My understanding, which has come from reading this board is that the working Border Collie world and it?s responsible breeders are a very close knit community. It should survive without anonymous recommendations to anonymous prospects. If I am wrong, maybe a ?Buy, Sell, Trade? posting area can be added like the rescue resource area was. So, say or think what you want about me, my attitude or whatever else I have done that has offended people in an attempt to make them think and act as the responsible adults they are supposed to be. In the end it?s not about me or you. It?s about those wagging tails when I come home from work. And those who were killed or still suffer today because of mankind. Now there?s an oxymoron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Originally posted by Gary M:Question: How many dogs will die or suffer needlessly because of humans? Answer: All of them. But some dogs have good, happy lives from start to finish, don't they? Not every puppy is bound to suffer or die needlessly. I'd like to think that is the case with any puppy that comes into my household. Gary, it is a wonderful thing you are doing for your dogs and I understand how all the abuse and neglect you've seen has left an impact on the way you view puppy seekers. I don't do rescue, though I have had a number of rescued animals. I think it would be hard when you do rescue to remember that the majority of people really are decent to their animals. That doesn't mean that many, many people aren't horrible to their animals. I just like to believe that the good outnumber the bad by at least 1 or 3 percent of the population. I once adopted a cat from a shelter where they were almost actively hostile towards me. I nearly walked out on them and away from a lovely cat who had sat in a cage for over a couple of months. I stuck out the sour looks and suspicious questions for the cat's sake. A year later, they sent me a very unpleasant letter telling me since I didn't spay the cat, they were going to reclaim her if I didn't spay her immediately. I wrote back that they might want to check their own records to see if the animal was already spayed at the time of adoption (as mine was) before sending insulting and threatening letters. I never heard back. Certainly I never heard an apology. The point of this trip down memory lane is they assumed I was guilty or at least a likely suspect of animal abuse and neglect from the moment I stepped through the door of their shelter. I moved from the area so the issue is moot, but I would never go back to them for another animal. In that case who are the losers? I don't mind in the least being questioned by a breeder or rescue. When I was looking for a Border Collie, I was happy to fill out the questionnaires from both rescue and breeders. I love talking dogs, so I enjoyed my phone interviews as well. But both places were looking for good owners not expecting to find bad ones. Screening out bad ones, sure, but looking for the good homes for their dogs. Every so often,I think about the staff at that shelter where I got my cat all those years ago. I know the anger that was directed at me came from the heartbreak of fighting so much abuse, neglect and ignorance. But the anger was still misdirected and, I believe, worked against what they wanted for their animals -- excellent, loving, permanent homes. No, man is not always kind. But cynical as I am (and I am), I still hold that kindness is never wasted. Except maybe on Jon Katz (tiny joke, sorry). Just some thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandra s. Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Very well said, Liz! Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Yes lots of dogs cats and kids are abused each and every day many of my dogs have been taken home from the pound , i just have trouble with people that think they know whats best for dogs and dictate what is and is not responsible . jmo bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Let me re-puncuate that, Question: How many dogs will die or suffer needlessly, because of humans? Answer: All of them. Obviously there are multitudes of happy, well cared for dogs. But behind virtually every one that is mistreated, abused, misbred or neglected stands a person. That was the point I was trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 I think what you mean is this, because that one still didn't make sense to me : Question: How many dogs that die and suffer needlesssly do so because of humans? Answer: All of them. They way you said it was that ALL dogs will die and suffer needlessly no matter what you do, this way makes it that any dog who DOES happen to suffer needlessly is the result of humans. BTW, Ditto Liz! (and nice joke too. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borderbob Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 is this also true with the human species also??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Anne Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Much of what you have said is in my own heart, however, I would caution those of us (and I include myself), whose hearts and souls are so bitter and angry at the way the animals are treated (domestic as well as wild), take a step back and be really careful not to turn away the person whose intentions are good and will offer a loving caring home to these most precious critters. I have to admit, I have had to take a deep breath now and then... and dig a little deeper at the inquiry of a person wanting an animal. I work with House Rabbit Rescue as well, and that is a whole nother ball game! a whole nother venue of abuse and neglect... Liz put it very well indeed! I had a similar experience: Before I got my BC boy, Phoenix, I scanned the web for rescue BC's and fell in love with a sweet faced 6 mo. old BC boy in a local shelter. I called the shelter to inquire about him, since the web page said "ready for adoption". It happened to be a long/holiday weekend, and the person I got on the phone must have been in a real big hurry to get out of there. I was treated so rudely, that it is a good thing I couldn't climb through the telephone wire, because I would have smacked that smart mouth little snip in a heartbeat, (and up to now anyway, I do not consider myself a violent person, although that rope is truly burning at both ends, these days!). This young........(clear throat)....... woman, says to me... "there are already 2 applications for adoption for, THAT dog." Yea, ok.... sooo I said... I would like to submit the 3rd. "Well, we only take 2 application on "our dogs",! hmmm so I asked "what if they both fall through"..., "oh they won't!!!"... Let me just tell you something about myself and our home and our (much needed) experience with BC's.... so he won't be brought back to you again!...... I know and have been owned by Border Collies, I am a professional pet trainer, and I have excellent references from 2 of my vets and former clients. We live in the country, I am retired from the medical field, and have a huge fenced in yard for my other 2 dogs as well. I have adopted/rescued from the street, from the pound etc... I would like to submit an application ANYWAY!!... very blatently she says, "I told you we only accept 2 applications". So I asked, again, what happens if they fall through? "WELL... I guess he will just be put down!" At that point I was sooooooo bloody p/o'ed, I just wanted to cry, and I am not an easy "anger" crier! Now who benefited from that and who suffered??? I understand the pain and anguish of rescuers, and shelter workers and otherwise animal caretakers, etc... but perhaps when that concern and "kindness", turns to bitterness and rudeness at the expense of the animals, it is time to step aside. My heart aches at how many of those type of situations occur as well as ALL the very obvious ones that you have mentioned. I would sooner recommend a shelter/rescue or breeder to someone asking than not. You can best bet, if I recommend a breeder, I know enough about that person to be as sure as possible that they will place a dog, or NOT, based on the person they interview AND check out. The same as if I recommend a Vet or another trainer... the well being of some precious critter may depend on that very recommendation. I can't tell you how many people I have discouraged from getting a BC or any other breed of dog based on what I know about the breed of dog, the indivdual dog or "breeder", they are "getting the dog from"! etc. and/ or the person asking. I did not know of the BC boards before my Phoenix, but this is the first place I would have come to for a recommendation for a rescuer/breeder etc. and still would, and before I registered here, no one knew anything about me or my family or my love for critters and the happy home we share. It is hard for those of us who really give a damn, because there are sooooo many who don't. I fight with myself everyday, and sometimes loose... at being too critical or too synical instead of more understanding and/or inquiring more as to specific "issue/s at hand"... But... and a big but.... I am trying real hard to walk that fine line, if for nothing else, my own sanity! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Kat's Dogs (Not to be confused with Katz Dogs , Yes, that is exactly what I meant (Your revision I mean). I think that one of the reasons people go to breeders in general instead of considering rescue is that breeders are typically the easier way to go. If I want to go buy a dog from a breeder, I would hazard a guess that the majority of them will not turn me down if I have the money and the right answers to their questions, if they have any. Rescue, be it an organization or an individual, are typically concerned first and foremost with the welfare the animal involved. I am sure most everyone here that has been involved with rescue can tell you stories of the name calling, abuse and threats to person or property that have been directed to them as a result of saying "I'm sorry, but I do not think that dog and you are the right match". Is the rescuer always right? Of course not, no more than a breeder is always right. ETA JoeAnne, When I picked up Bernie from the no-kill shelter where he was going to be put down in a few days, the woman I was dealing with was very pleasant, very helpful and very glad we were taking him. She told us that if we had any problems, let them know and they would do what they could. At that point, the shelter director, who was standing about 5 feet away and had not said a word to us said "If you bring him back, it will be $50.00 for the euth and disposal" What can I say? bobh, People have more options to avoid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Gary, please take a deep breath and reflect for a little while. The thrust of your posts on three different threads (two of which you've started yourself) is that if someone asks for recommendations of good breeders, without (initially) providing any further information, it is reasonable to conclude that: --she knows nothing about Border Collies --she wants a border collie because she saw Babe and pet tricks on Animal planet --she doesn't know what she wants to do with the dog --she is too lazy to go to dog events and ask people where they got their border collies --she is unwilling to wait for a pup but will insist on getting one immediately because she is into instant gratification --she will not give any more consideration to getting a dog than she will to picking out a restaurant --she expects a guarantee that the pup will not chase the cat, herd the kids, want to play ball for hours on end, be afraid of loud noises, "redecorate" the living room, and will stay in the yard for hours without fences or supervision --she wants to breed the dog so her children can see the miracle of birth --after that she intends to sell the dog or otherwise get rid of it --she is likely or certain to abuse, mistreat and betray the dog --etc. If the person subsequently posts that she has a 5-year-old rescue border collie whom she is working in obedience (CDX) and agility, that apparently does not change your assessment in the least, because she provided that information only after she was asked. Do you not see that your conclusions in no way follow from the poster's alleged crime? > If the poster goes to a puppy mill, s/he may or may not burn in hell, regardless of your hopes, but one sure consequence will be that the puppy miller is enriched, rewarded and encouraged to continue breeding. That may be of no concern to you, but it is to me. > One of the services these Boards provide is a way that people can receive recommendations of good breeders (and rescues) from those who feel comfortable giving them. Yes, the border collie world and its responsible breeders are a very close knit community, which often makes it hard for newcomers to find good breeders without help. There will never be a "Buy, Sell or Trade" area, for reasons that should be obvious to you, and I am alert for efforts to circumvent the rule against advertising puppies or dogs for sale. Whatever your posts are "borne out of," you are flaming a specific poster, and that IS against the rules of the Boards. Enough is enough. Please refrain from any further posts disparaging this person, whether via sarcasm, satire, parody or any other means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Eileen, I would like to send you a PM regarding this situation, if you would be inclined to reading and responding to it. On a different note, but still regarding breeders and advertising on this board. I would submit that there already are breeders using this board as an advertising medium, intentionally or not. They just do not mention price. How so, one would ask. (For this example, and as not to point fingers I will use myself as an example) I am a trialer that is well known on this board. I converse regularly about any topic I have knowledge on and people ask me questions and I provide the best information available. Because I am in the trialing "circuit" talk goes back and forth about my dogs, their good points and bad points. I talk about the trials I attend and where my dogs place. I talk about breeding my girl X to so-and-so's Y We talk on the board about when the litter is due. I post pictures of Mom and her litter. People naturally ohh and ahh and say I'll take this one or that one. I respond this one is spoken for but that one is not, and neither are 3 of its litter mates. As I said, all that is missing is price. If I am wrong, could you point out the errors in my reasoning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Gary give it up. Your just aching for a fight that doesnt need to be had. I mean now your picking on established members of this board. Who are here for what the board is for. Your preaching to the wrong choir!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Gary, I will be glad to correspond with you privately about this. Please email me at eileen@bordercollie.org. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Lets try to look at it from a different perspective. In the original post that started all of this. In one of the replies to the OP, a person recommending rescue stated "Unfortunately, there are a ton here that I found while on my search for pups. not really ANY were good. Rescue is your best option." To which DeltaBluezTess responded "Wow, what a slap in the face to the Border Collie folks up here. I raise/train/trial my Border Collies as well as some of the top folks in the Nation who live here also. Let me see, some of the local folks just ran at the Sheepdog Finals....placed high in Nursery and some made the top 40. All good decent people who care about their dogs." Now I know that DeltaBluez has one of the few ROM border collies, has had her dogs trialed not only by herself, but some of the most recognized and respected handlers in the biz. She should have felt insulted, but she was aware of what had been said and had a chance to respond. I highly doubt that anyone on this board knows every good breeder in a given geographical area. By asking for and receiving breeder information, particularly if done by e-mail or PM, anyone that is not included in a list or mention of good breeders, regardless of reason of their exclusion, is potentially viewed as a breeder of lesser quality dogs. Kind of like "guilt by omission" Is this fair to either the breeder or the poster. Actually I would like to see a breeder section on the board. No ads on what is avaialable, qualifications (other than something that excludes AKC), just name and how to contact, then let the buyer contact those they wish to contact and those that wish to be contacted. Their merits could then be debated or questioned in an open forum. I mean really, what is the functional difference between saying XXX has well bred dogs for sale or XXX saying I have well bred dogs for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Gary: I am not sure what your beef is about. Is it that you do not like breeders at all? Is it that you don't like breeders tempting folks by talking about their litters? Is it that you don't like advertising either directly, or indirectly? Is is that you don't like people getting pups from breeders? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahAnn Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Gary -- I am a relative newcomer to the world of Border Collies, and I have found that the people who post here are intelligent, informed, cooperative and concerned about the well-being of animals in general and BC's in particular. I have learned more here than in all the other web sites I've visited combined. Eileen has politely asked you to refrain from any further disparaging remarks, and I hope that you will follow her advice. You are wasting our time otherwise, and your time will be better served if you go and volunteer at your local animal shelter. There are no fights to be had here; only lively debates that ultimately serve the best interests of the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 There are members of this board that have stated they feel a breeder?s responsibility ends with the transfer of the dog. . . . Then we hear that if we do not treat the poster just right, they will just go to a puppy mill or BYB. Well if that is their moral compass, then nothing I do or say one way or the other will make a difference. I'm surprised to read the first statement. IME, good breeders will always take back a pup who isn't working out for its new owners. They also screen potential homes pretty thoroughly before placing a pup into it. I don't think the general public understands the difference between breeders who are attempting to improve the breed, puppy-millers, and BYB's. They are unaware of morality attaching to the choice they make. The danger in alienating those who enquire about breeders is that, by withholding information about good breeders, you increase the chances of their encountering a puppy mill or BYB simply by virtue of pups from those sources being more accessible by comparision to the neophyte. And by promoting good breeders I believe one also promotes the breed. Of course, there are those who believe breeding any dog is immoral, because there are so many unwanted animals destroyed every day. I work in rescue, and I understand rage and frustration really well. But I can't focus on those emotions without burning myself out. I have to discipline myself to focus on the joy of saving the ones we can, and not dwell on those we can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Gary, I think I understand where your frustration in all this is coming from. Obviously, from what I gathered in your posts, you do a lot of rescue, and God bless you for that. So, you see a lot of the "bad" side of folks rushing out to get a pup, cuz they're just so damn cute and smart. And then, the people realize that the smarter a dog is, the more they need to be involved in the dogs life and well, you know the rest of the scenerio. I admit when I decided to get a BC, I didn't know where to go. I researched every thing I could get my hands on. And even though it was at a huge sheepdog trial that I watched from way far away on the freeway(uh, I was on the freeway, not the trial ) I didn't know it was as big a deal as I know it to be now. That said, I knew no one in my area to go to. I found lots of ads for AKC pups, but since I have dispised the AKC for many, many years, I didn't want that. And I saw some ads for ABCA dogs, so I figured ABAKC would be better, I concentrated on those. I got in touch with a lovely woman in NC and we stayed in touch off and on for 2.5 yrs. till we finally got moved. That's how we got Jackson, and then through the ABCHA, I found these boards, started training Jackson, and really got an education on these wonderful dogs. Jackson came from good breeding, but not great. I am happy with him if the only thing ever to his "credit" is his train wrecked beg.nov. trial. But, trialing and working is what my ultimate goal is, and I wanted another pup. I had three folks I knew personally and their dogs. I got Skip from one of them. He is already showing great potential. But, I was also made aware of the many many many BCs in rescue. So, I had said that my next BC would be from rescue. And I decided to foster till the "right" one came around. And while that may sound cheesy, I can only aford one more. Room isn't a prob, but my animals are vetted regularly and I spend what needs to be spent and while one dog may cost 1,000s in vet bills while another nothing, those are unforseen things, and to plan for those, no one would get an animal! So, now I have two wonderful foster girls, seniors, and I am aware that they may be with me forever, not likely, but certainly possible. But they needed a home, and I was available. Watching all the dogs last night romping and chasing and sniffing and barking at some hidden grizzly bears, the thought came to me that ALL dogs should have this, and I thought of all the ones getting "the needle" or locked in cages for months while awaiting someone to come for them, and it made me feel very sad and small. Just a quick stroll through pet finders will give you the tip of the iceberg. But, they can't all be saved, and that is hard to have to say also. But I also know that if EVERY one that wanted a BC only took from rescue, the BC as we know it would eventually die out, and the only ones left would be the foo foo AKC dogs. The gene pool needs to stay as large and active as possible. To get BCs out of rescue is not to say everyone who wants a BC should go only to rescue, but to educate, educate, educate. So that folks getting a pup from those great working lines don't screw them up THEN toss them to rescue or shelters. As far as a person writing to ask on a BC forum, where to find a good breeder, perhaps they were like me, they just didn't know where to find those resourses in their area. Asking them questions is not out of line, berating them for it is. The breeder will make either a responsible decision or not, but if I were to recommend someone to talk to, I would know they were responsible enough to screen that person. And I would ask before hand if it's alright. Where is the harm in that? We all know who you refered to in your analogy on pups "for sale", but really, are we to censure what accomplishments or deeds or what have you concerning our dogs we are to write about? The argument has been stated that before breeding, you should have buyers already lined up. Well, Gary sometimes event the best laid plans of mice and men lay in ruins. When I found out about Skips breeding, the parents had just been kenneled together, they hadn't even done the deed yet, and I was 10 on the list. The other 8 were working/trialing homes, 1 was a hobby farm, no trialing. Well, needless to say, I got Skip. The breeder kept one and half the others bailed for one reason or another. The point is, what if I didn't take Skip? He'd be looking for a home. And since all the breeders contacts knew he had pups, what then? What if someone on the boards was looking for a well bred pup and they were close enough for a meet and greet? Do I say nothing and wish all the best to poor Skip? Or do I call Bill and say, hey, I know someone who is looking for a pup, I don't know them personally but would you mind if I gave them your number. Is there something wrong with that? I don't know where the disservice would be in that. There is nothing wrong with suggesting rescue, but there is nothing wrong with wanting well bred pups either. There has to be as large a gene pool to breed from as possible, and for that, we need responsible breeders and responsible people to take those pups. Promoting rescue is great, but we also need to support the breeding. Otherwise, we are not championing the breed, only dogs that need homes. And that will finally let the AKC win their desire to prefab the BC. I for one, love the breed too much to accept that. I will save the ones I can, I will support good breeders and say a prayer each night that people will one day see that animals, younguns, old people, infirm and disabled people, are not to be just tossed aside because of it being an inconvience. Keep fighting the good fight, but make sure of who the real enemy is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I hate to break it to you, but I DID indeed find a ton of either show breeders or BYB, or just people that wanted to breed their dogs once for the fun of it and had no clue. Within a 2-3 hour radius of me - I was able to FIND way to many BYB type places and only 1 place that actually had sheep. It is hard to find BC breeders - seeing as some of the best dogs might not even trial, they just are on a little farm somewhere working like mad - so when they have an award winning (we are talking about trialing now here) litter it will be hard to find those pups unless you already know the person. With my comment, all I was saying was there are a TON of BYB/AKC breeders, so you have to be VERY careful. As a totally un-related sentence, I thought (with limited info) that rescue would be a great option for the OP. The "rescue is your best bet" (oh yea, and note that "YOUR") comment was not because there are not good herding dogs here, there are a ton and I know that full well. It was not meant to insult anyone, or say that all breeders here are bad, or that if you live here you have to do rescue... I think you kind of twisted my words on that one. Let me clarify nice and easy: YES, there are a ton of breeders here. YES, there are lots of BYB/AKC breeders here (unfortunately). YES, rescue is ALWAYS a good option and YES, in the case before, from the limited info (nothing was said about rescue) I considered rescue the best option. NOT because there are not good breeders here, or no good sheepdogs. The two comments were UNRELATED! Sorry for the confusion - but I just can't stand down and let you twist my words so that it sounds like I am insulting the very things I love most. If this still doesn't make sense to you, I would be happy to say it all again. But PLEASE stop accusing me of insulting all the dogs who are from here and got to the Sheepdog Finals (congrats BTW ) or any other respectable working or non-working border collie. That it the LAST thing I would EVER mean to do. for any feeling that were hurt, people that were insulted, I apologize deeply - all because I punctuated some sentences wrong. Now couldn't you please just let that statement go? Or do still you feel that you must drag down every member of this board down and do so by twisting their every words into insults and accusations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Kat's I hate to break it to you. I was not insulting you. I am not accusing you of insulting all the dogs?. You made a statement. (True) Someone took exception to it. (True) She did take issue, that?s why she quoted you. (True) I said I can understand why from your statement someone from the area you mentioned might take exception to it given their credentials. (True) The twisting from that point was yours. I was using those 2 examples to make a point. The point which you chose to ignore regarding incomplete or invalid information. I guess I should have added that had this been in a PM instead of an open forum, DeltaBluezTess would NOT have been aware of what you said, would NOT have had the opportunity to correct your misinforming response and, had the poster taken YOUR words as gospel, may NOT have had the chance to offer the poster a dog that would fit her needs had she been so inclined. I quoted you directly, as I did DeltaBluezTess so there would be no mis-interpretation of what either of you said to illustrate the unfairness to a breeder of questionable or out-right wrong statements. Why did you not then take the opportunity to clarify your position. (Which I would have included as an illustration on the value of open public discourse) It seems that many here feel that they have the right to take me to task for anything I say and any way I say it and can twist away or entirely miss the point. Julie says; Gary: I am not sure what your beef is about. Is it that you do not like breeders at all? Is it that you don't like breeders tempting folks by talking about their litters? Is it that you don't like advertising either directly, or indirectly? Is is that you don't like people getting pups from breeders? AFTER I had made 2 statements IN SUPPORT of breeders. I asked because how do you get the correct and relevant information to the person asking the question and at the same time be fair to ALL BREEDERS OF GOOD DOGS. I asked a valid relevant question. There have been 5 (FIVE) responses, 2 of them ripping me but no an attempt to answer this basic question. How do you answer a breeder request inquiry and be sure that the requester is getting valid unbiased answers based on the requirements of the requester? I am also NOT saying that being proud of your breeding accomplishments is wrong. (ETA and to post the fact you have puppies, or post cute pictures of them) I am NOT saying it is unethical. (ETA to post the fact you have puppies, or post cute pictures of them) I am NOT saying it should not be allowed. (ETA to post the fact you have puppies, or post cute pictures of them) I did say I see it as a form of back door advertising. That was my opinion based on the FACTS that I have seen posted on this board. Many of you have opinions of me and are not afraid to let them be known. I have that same right. There have been a few that have supported some of what I have said. I understand the reluctance of some based on guilt by association. As far as I know, Eileen is the moderator of this board and I have honored her request. If you read what I wrote, you will see that I have made at least 2 references supporting making as much accurate information as possible to ANY breeder request, regardless of the requester?s status, board longevity or requirements input. Those who do not like show are always free to change the channel. I did not see this post on a required reading list. By the way Kat?s I have never felt, said or implied that I must drag down every member of this board, nor in any way have I done so nor I have twisted their every word into an insult or accusation. What you said there is a sweeping generalization. It is also hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I would love to invite you to a local trial that is happening next weekend in Lakebay. I'll be running my dogs and would be more than happy to introduce myself to you and as well introduce you to the local handlers. And you are more than welcome to come to my place in Carnation. If you want, Tess or Lucy will be more than happy to be a lesson dog for you and you will get a free lesson....compliments of Deltabluez. Diane~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Diane, I assume you were talking to Kat's Just to be clear because I (... won't go there) I respect you and everything you have accomplished. I can't even imagine what it took to get a ROM. Congratulations on Kane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Before I need to break out the Kevlar again, There are a large number of good trialer and / or breeders on this board. The names that come to mind are: (In no particular order) Christine Koval (Tweed - This years young promising dog award recipient) Sam Furman Terry Sheaffer (Mick - 2nd place Nursery) Mark Billadeau (Jody - 30th Nursery, First time Nationals) Renee Billadeau Diane Pagel (Kane - 10th Nursery) Eileen Stein (I believe breeder of Tuff, Run by Jeanne Weaver, 21st 2005 Nursery) Denise Wall I may not have spoken to some, I have agreed with some and I have disagreed with some. Regardless of anything it in no way diminishes my respect for all when it comes to the dedication they have for the continuation and improvement of the breed. I have never had any doubt or I believe have questioned about their concern for the welfare of any dog or their breeding integrity. I further believe that any attempt by any of these people (or those I may have forgotten, or maybe do not know) to place their pups, when they may be available, is done so with the match of the dog and the owner at the forefront of their minds. I would not seek to impune, disparage or interfere with what is, in the end, what all of us seek. That being a good home for every dog. That is what good, responsible breeding and responsible rescue, to me, should be about. Obviously, none of these people need MY seal of approval to do what they do and do well. I just wanted to clarify the mistaken supposition that I am an anti-breeder, out to villify every member of the board that breeds Border Collies. If any of the people I have mentioned, directly or indirectly, feel that I have said something to harm or offend them in their breeding efforts, I sincerely apologize. My fight is with those who would seek to profit through far less noble means and possess far less character than that which your puppies leave on their papers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Gary, I think I understand your point. You don't want to give out information to just anyone with a computer. You'd like to know to whom you are giving information - in detail. I understand because we have a very unusual last name. At one time, we thought there were only about 7 of us in the US, but the Internet has come up with more. But, people looking for our adult kids, knowing that we've been in North Carolina for almost 30 years, find us and call. I never give out the information, even if I recognize the caller. I ask for their contact info and offer to relay it to the kids. Heck, there are some old friends we want to see again, there are some we don't remember why we ever liked, and there are some we want to forget along with the reasons we hung out together. Figure it's the same with my kids. Perhaps the solution is for anyone who knows someone who might have a pup or dog available to offer to pass on the prospective adopter's contact information. And it's sort of a nice way to say, "Who are you, where are you, and what makes you think you want a border collie?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fooshuman Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Gary, I won't get involved in this thread beyond this post. When I got my first BC back in 95, i met with the breeder, he wasn't 100% on selling one of his dogs to a non herder. He was a no nonsense, straight shooting type of person. He must of liked me because i left with Frisbee. (He told me to return her if it didn't work out for a full refund. Oh and she was to be spayed) *thats a no brainer I began working at an animal shelter at the age of 13, i know the horror well.* I found these boards a few years later, I tried to get infomation to help me learn more about the breed. Yes Gary i am the guy who saw the dog on a movie (Down and Out in Beverly Hills)and said thats the kind of dog for me! If you ever seen the movie, you wont compare that dog with the Babe dogs. I felt attacked from day 1. (whether it was real or imagined i no longer can tell) Folks with posts filled with venom, insulting me, my dog, and the fact that i had no interest in herding. Someone labeled my dog a foo foo dog! I was told "I was a bad person and i'd never have a true relationship with my dog." All because i didnt care to work her. (herding, she was a top notch frisbee dog and wowed many of local ranchers at their fun runs.) I left these boards, vowing never to return! From that point on I hated the hardcore bc'ers. I made a point to find faults in the "true" BC ownership. I refused to goto their events, to me they all sucked! How many dogs are shot because they don't work out? Chase cattle or kill chickens? How many are injured and maimed doing a "job?" Back then herding = abuse in my eyes. When I lost Frisbee to cancer, i had never felt such a loss. I needed to talk with people who understood my grief. I returned to these boards heartbroken and in need of comfort. See when Foo died i felt like a big part of me died with her. The people here understood, took me in, and helped me coup. I am ever grateful to all of you. I noticed almost right away how much nicer everyone seemed here. The pet owners and herding folks all seemed to get along and learned from eachother. Sure it's not 100% of the time, but even when disagreeing they all talked as equals. I liked that, noone likes being talked down to. Would you listen to someone who talked down (whether real or imagined) to you? From the LF a breeder thread to the 2 you posted, that is how i felt you portrayed yourself. (my own personal observation) Whether i agree or not didn't matter. I see what you are trying to say, it just bugged me the way you said it. My point being... Even if some AKC, Jon Katz loving BC owner shows up here, they deserve to be talked to on equal footing. Sure disagree and debate their views. If they are the worse people in the world to own a BC, but do. Wouldn't it be better to make them feel welcome so we can provide them with the proper info and help them become better owners? Even if you just convert one sub-standard bc owner to an average boardie, you have done well! I am no expert on all things Border Collie. I am however on loving one. I have just now begun to consider herding with my 2. Mostly because of the people here. They are the ones who educated me in a non-hostile way, made me feel apart of something, and don't judge me because of my own stupidity. I have wonder if that person will ever return to these boards? For their dogs fate i hope so! Respectfully yours, Jeffrey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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