A Questrion of collars.

[desertranger]

Now why would she take offense?

 

Beats me? Dealing with tourons (tourist morons) I've learned that too many people are too easily offended these days by almost anything. I'm not easily offend. I have also learned that an offense offered or not need not be taken.

 

 

 

I have to agree, in my experience, a choke chain can do a lot more damage in an unskilled hand that a prong collar can. Not that a prong collar couldn't, but in my experience the behavior doesn't escalate to the point where the dog is going to continue pulling and the handler doesn't typically need to give a stronger correction.

 

And I'm sorry, but if you have been using choke chains for 40 years, and know how to use them properly then why are you even worried about what other people think or have to say?!?

 

Because unless you ask questions, seek the opinions, suggestions and knowledge of others you remain stupid. It's about education, discussion and learning something new. A new type collar was was suggested so I asked.

 

I'm guessing that you've never seen a prong collar used properly, or felt one. Yes they look rather evil. But trust me, they don't feel anywhere near as evil as they look. Sure they can be missused, but so can a choke collar or even a clicker for that matter. And there are many, many folks who use them properly and both they and their dogs benefit.

 

Sheesh, who said anything about dragging a dog around??? You asked for opinions on collars, we gave them. Now you're classifying some people as inhumane dog draggers?

 

No I have never used them. However I have seen them in use and almost always the poor dog is being dragged rather than led. Classify some people as dog draggers? Why not there are those that do. Classify you as a dog dragger? I can't, I've never seen you walk a dog.

 

I think "stirring the pot" is an apt description here.

 

J.

 

For that one I'll take a bow. As a tour, adventure guide and outdoor instructor I carry a 4ft wooden spoon. It reminds the sheriff, rangers, students and other guides that I have a knack for keeping the pot well stirred. And I do indeed do that.

 

 

 

I'm not particularly anti-choke collar, but what 9 week old puppy needs one?

 

Both of my dogs do quite fine with leather field collars. Mick will wear a head harness on walks around the neighborhood, but that's just because otherwise the cars drive him crazy.

 

I don't know what a head harness is. Jin will receive a puppies wagon/pack harness combo when he's about 6-8 months and he'll start pulling a cart at a year. He'll be expected to carry his own gear on the trail and when working.

 

A 9 week old puppy doesn't need a choker. On the other hand a 9 week old puppy does need to be trained and a noisy jangly collar is just the thing.

 

FYI: Todays training session. Up till yesterday Jin only wore the collar and dragged the lead around with it. This morning I took him to the pet store and he followed with no problem. Lots of slack in the and lead no pulling or lagging behind and pu,llling on the lead. The few times he just sat there a light pull or tug was enough to make him get on his feet and to follow.

 

If I have offended any of you I apologize.

[Jumpin Boots]

Because unless you ask questions, seek the opinions, suggestions and knowledge of others you remain stupid. It's about education, discussion and learning something new. A new type collar was was suggested so I asked.

I agree w/ your above statement, that is a great reason to ask questions. However, you didn't go into this question w/ an open mind. Instead you immediately began slamming people who use a different technique.

 

My first thought was Great a gadget for people who do not know how to use a choker. I think I have Bonnie the trainer convinced I kn ow how to use a traditional choker. I would like to know your opinion and what kind of collar you use.

Oh yeah, I got Jin a prong horn choker. You know the kind use by people who can't control their dogs. It's sized for a mastif. Think I'll put that on him for the first day of class.

 

I believe that most of us are trying to tell you that we believe a 9 week old puppy does not need either a choke chain or a prong collar. Starting w/ a flat nylon or leather collar and proper training should be plenty. However, many of us have rescues and take on issues that are not going to be solved w/ a flat collar so we step it up, whether prong or choke, as long as it is being used appropriately and w/out harm we should not judged(which I for one feel like you have done). And even for those dogs that are not rescues we don't all live in open spaces and often have to deal w/ many annoyances and distractions in crowded spaces and sometime a re-enforcement is needed and will make training or re-training progres a lot quicker.

[desertranger]

I agree w/ your above statement, that is a great reason to ask questions. However, you didn't go into this question w/ an open mind. Instead you immediately began slamming people who use a different technique.

I believe that most of us are trying to tell you that we believe a 9 week old puppy does not need either a choke chain or a prong collar. Starting w/ a flat nylon or leather collar and proper training should be plenty. However, many of us have rescues and take on issues that are not going to be solved w/ a flat collar so we step it up, whether prong or choke, as long as it is being used appropriately and w/out harm we should not judged(which I for one feel like you have done). And even for those dogs that are not rescues we don't all live in open spaces and often have to deal w/ many annoyances and distractions in crowded spaces and sometime a re-enforcement is needed and will make training or re-training progres a lot quicker.

 

 

Fair enough. But I still don't see the purpose of a prong collar though. Frankly and on the bottom line I don't see the need for a collar at all however since our area has grown up and become a city so to speak all dogs have to have collars, leads and tags. A law I just found out about says the state wants me to neuter him, under Da' Law. The open spaces aren't so open anymore even in the desert.

[Emma H]

Prong collars are MUCH safer than chokes. They apply pressure evenly around the neck and don't restrict air flow- unlike choke chains.

Having said that, I do not believe in the use of either of them and most certainly not on a puppy!!!! Training should be motivated and enjoyable and the dog should not have to fear being "wrong."

[Ringo's Dad]

Fair enough. But I still don't see the purpose of a prong collar though. Frankly and on the bottom line I don't see the need for a collar at all however since our area has grown up and become a city so to speak all dogs have to have collars, leads and tags. A law I just found out about says the state wants me to neuter him, under Da' Law. The open spaces aren't so open anymore even in the desert.

 

you don't strike me as the kinda guy that is really asking questions. You have the answers. Enjoy yourself

[martySQ]

Ok, Well, I use a prong on Bess who is still considered a pup because she doesn't turn 1 until April. The reason I do is because I needed to walk for health reasons, and one of the many reasons I got her was to help get me walking regularly. I am not that strong or quick of a person since I have had breast cancer and had extensive sugery. The prong keeps her from pulling me down the dirt road on my face, and it also keeps me from pulling her down the street on her face when she thinks she needs to stand there and smell the dead squirrel just a few more minutes....while my heart rate goes down. Previously, I took her to obedience classes, and we had worked on walking nicely on the leash, and for the regular stuff she does. I just didn't have the time to feed her kibble bits every step of the way on a mile long walk to keep her engaged in me and what I'm doing. My fingers weren't appreciating the nibbles on the run either since the goal is to keep moving and so she had to get a moving target and gentle isn't her middle name. The walk is for her too since I use a flexilead and she can run ahead or lag behind some, and we both are happy with this arraingement. Her excited wiggles as I walk toward her with the "monster" prong collar is all I need to see she doesn't mind the process if I'm careful putting it on and taking it off.

I don't think I am a mean monster. I am a mature woman acting responsibly toward my dog and myself.

[Lizmo]

I'm not particularly anti-choke collar, but what 9 week old puppy needs one?

 

My thoughts exactly. I can't fathom putting anything other than a very light-weight nylon or leather collar on a young pup. A 9 week old pup doesn't pull that hard (I assume thats the reasoning behind using the choke chain?).

 

If your dead set on using a choker (which I see no reason to use one unless the dog absolutely needs one), why not wait till your pup is a little older and stronger to wear one? Usually chain chokers are pretty heavy.

[Marilyn T]

I taught puppy classes at the local obedience (competition and household) club for 10 years. I tried to stay away from recommending either choke or prong collars for the puppies because they have no idea about corrections when they first start. A buckle collar is much more forgiving for a bad handler, or a puppy that jerks on the leash to go exploring. Actually, a gentle leader, or haltie is even better. I would recommend a prong collar, and fit it to the puppy, in the case of a 90 pound 6 month old lab puppy with an 80 pound 60-70 year old handler. (why these two always seem to pair up is beyond me, but invariably they come together). I would rather teach someone how to use this than hear that the puppy dragged the handler into traffic, or the handler fell and broke a leg or hip while walking the puppy. (BTW this DID happen one year to one of my students). Although I own choke collars, I never even used them to train any of my dogs, even up to Utility. I do like them to attach to lamb legs as an aid to pulling out a large lamb when needed! Personally, like Julie, I only use field collars with the center ring on all my dogs. Of course, they are rarely attached to a leash so it usually is a means of identification for my dogs incase of mishap.

[Lenajo]

the best choice of collar depends on the dog (the age, the size, the neck structure, the motivation to pull) and the owner (the age, size, arm and general strength, and motivation to train)

 

For a small owner with limited training time, limited arm strength and a thick necked bully mix, or a difficult to focus herding dog, who needs to be walked *now*, a prong collar can be an ideal tool. It makes the point without hurting the throat, and helps the dog to focus on task by being perfectly clear what behavior is not going to work.

 

Prong collars are also ideal for precision work - you need to move the collar less than a 1/4 inch for the dog to feel it.

 

Any collar can be used abusivly in the hands of someone who chooses to act in that manner.

[Lenajo]

I don't like Haltis or GL anymore except in experienced hands. My vet hates them and my chiropractor makes cash register noises at the sight of them. The potential for neck injury is huge if those collars are used incorrectly - which is very easy because all you have to do is give the dog half a leash and let him lunge. How many pet owners let that happen..... It's not like a horse that's even with you or above you. A dog gets wrenched up and sideways at the same time right at the cervical spine. ouch!

 

If the owner is opposed to the look of the prong I might use an easy walk harness (or just a plain old harness with the leash clipped to the front instead of the top)

[Smokjbc]

I believe there was a study done in Germany that followed dogs trained with either choke or prong collars that recorded their autopsy results after their natural deaths. The difference between the choke and the prong collar was significant. And it was the CHOKE collar that caused trachea and neck damage, compared to the very low amount of damage caused by the prong.

 

I don't use either-especially not on a pup. I am considering a prong for some spoiled brat behavior Her Jet-Ness has in the truck cab when we are about 2 miles from sheep until we pull into the gate. It is very hard to get after a dog and not hit other drivers !

[Jack & Co.]

For a small owner with limited training time, limited arm strength and a thick necked bully mix, or a difficult to focus herding dog, who needs to be walked *now*, a prong collar can be an ideal tool. It makes the point without hurting the throat, and helps the dog to focus on task by being perfectly clear what behavior is not going to work.

 

Prong collars are also ideal for precision work - you need to move the collar less than a 1/4 inch for the dog to feel it.

You summed us up perfectly, Lenajo. I like my prong collar for walks because I have to be careful of my right shoulder. I really don't even pull on it anymore because Jack just seems to know that when he's wearing it, he needs to be on his best behavior.

[Marilyn T]

Thanks Lenajo for the update on Halties and Gentle leaders. It makes sense. I haven't taught in about 5 years now, and they were all the rage back then. Never did use them personally, but as I said, it made walking a 90 pound lab puppy possible for some people.

[hsnrs]

Since others have added their two cents guess I will too. We bought 2 prong collars for a dog training class because the instructor recommended using them. At another demo in a park at a farmers market the lady used the collar. Since I wanted to try it having never seen one before we tried it. My girl pulls something terrible. One or two light tug and releases on the collar and she was walking beside me nicely. The other day Cesar Millan had a show where a dog was lunging at other dogs. He suggested pulling the dog either away or to the person walking the dog to break his concentration (sideways). That seemed a better way to go to me. Repetition; repetition; repetition. JMO

Narita in AZ

[Riley-dog]

Prongs have their uses, not on a puppy. I don't need any collar at all except as something to hold tags and the end of the leash for public area rules. That being said I use a chain choke collar because it seems to be the most comfortable on him for all day long wear (although not nearly so purdy as his Weaver leather and concho collar) and also because he spends more time wet than dry in the summertime so leather is a big no and web collars take too long to dry.

 

Started putting my mom's lab in a choke collar even though I don't think the dog has ever been leashed. I think he's part mastiff or dane and he has some big dangling loose folds of skin that were getting really irritated by flat collars (tried leather and nylon web). Well a big chain collar hung down far enough it didn't rub his floppy neck and it healed up... and if he needed to be restrained you could grab one end and it would tighten up and not slide off of his head.

[1sheepdoggal]

Prongs have their uses, not on a puppy. I don't need any collar at all except as something to hold tags and the end of the leash for public area rules. That being said I use a chain choke collar because it seems to be the most comfortable on him for all day long wear (although not nearly so purdy as his Weaver leather and concho collar) and also because he spends more time wet than dry in the summertime so leather is a big no and web collars take too long to dry.

 

Started putting my mom's lab in a choke collar even though I don't think the dog has ever been leashed. I think he's part mastiff or dane and he has some big dangling loose folds of skin that were getting really irritated by flat collars (tried leather and nylon web). Well a big chain collar hung down far enough it didn't rub his floppy neck and it healed up... and if he needed to be restrained you could grab one end and it would tighten up and not slide off of his head.

 

If your dog is in the water a lot, This is a good reason not to leave a choke chain on it. Dont know if you have a dog that dives under the water, but I do, and Id be terrified the hanging choke chain would snag on an underwater limb or root or some thing and drown a dog.

[soloagility]

Jin, 9 wks, got a choke chain as his first collar. I've used them all my life to train dogs and gave never had a problem. I signed Jin up for beginner classes and the instructor had me get a training collar that was a web with a piece of chain to pull the web tight when pulled on. My first thought was Great a gadget for people who do not know how to use a choker. I think I have Bonnie the trainer convinced I kn ow how to use a traditional choker. I would like to know your opinion and what kind of collar you use.

 

Wow. There really is no point in answering your "questions" as you've shown in your posts in this thread and others that you are not looking to learn anything new here.

 

Your attitude isn't really surprising though, coming from someone who still uses a choke to train puppies. The majority of people who I still see using chokes to train behaviours have been training like that for many years and are too stubborn or proud to acknowledge the progresses that have been made in dog training.

[desertranger]

Wow. There really is no point in answering your "questions" as you've shown in your posts in this thread and others that you are not looking to learn anything new here.

 

Your attitude isn't really surprising though, coming from someone who still uses a choke to train puppies. The majority of people who I still see using chokes to train behaviours have been training like that for many years and are too stubborn or proud to acknowledge the progresses that have been made in dog training.

 

 

You are the third person to say that. You make it sound like I torture my dogs by dragging them around on a tight chain. You say I'm not looking to learning anything here. To the contrary I have learned a lot in the various threads here AND have added valuable information to this forum. After going through the collars thread I decided not to use a prong horn collar and to stick with a method I have used for 40 years. it works and I[ve never had a problem with it.

 

I don't pull collars tight, I see that all the time. I don't drag my puppies around by their necks and I take offense at anyone who think I might. If a puppy pulls on the collar I stop and wait. Not like that broad who drags her dog to her because he wants to fight against the collar or go a different way. A choker is a tool and it is up to the tool user to learn how to use it properly without causing injury. That's the same with any other tool in the world. If you can't use a tool properly then put it away or take a class because you're going to hurt yourself. If you can't use a choker properly then throw it away.

 

 

I asked a question to learn something. I learned about collars and I learned that there are people on this forum who have no tolerance, no imagination and a total a lack of thought.

 

Soloagility you obviously don't know how to properly use a choker or you are afraid to use one.

[soloagility]

The point that the majority of us are trying to make is that it is unnecessary to use punishment to train a pup. Positive reinforcement is much more effective for teaching, building a relationship and the dog's drive. The top competitors in most dog sports train using positive reinforcement and most would never lay their hands on a choke (prong, yes....choke, no).

 

So....I guess all of these world class competitors (in Schutzhund, ring sport, agility, obedience, etc) have it wrong. Silly them.

[Eileen Stein]

Wow. There really is no point in answering your "questions" as you've shown in your posts in this thread and others that you are not looking to learn anything new here.

 

Your attitude isn't really surprising though, coming from someone who still uses a choke to train puppies. The majority of people who I still see using chokes to train behaviours have been training like that for many years and are too stubborn or proud to acknowledge the progresses that have been made in dog training.

 

I asked a question to learn something. I learned about collars and I learned that there are people on this forum who have no tolerance, no imagination and a total a lack of thought.

 

Soloagility you obviously don't know how to properly use a choker or you are afraid to use one.

 

 

Dial it back, folks, and leave out the personal sniping, on both sides.

[desertranger]

The point that the majority of us are trying to make is that it is unnecessary to use punishment to train a pup. Positive reinforcement is much more effective for teaching, building a relationship and the dog's drive. The top competitors in most dog sports train using positive reinforcement and most would never lay their hands on a choke (prong, yes....choke, no).

 

So....I guess all of these world class competitors (in Schutzhund, ring sport, agility, obedience, etc) have it wrong. Silly them.

 

 

 

Is that how you see me training my pup? Through punishement. Excuse me while I get out the whips and chains.

 

You assume too much.

 

 

a. 80% of all training is done without a collar or lead.

b. If I see someone useng a collar improperly I tell them and not too politely.

 

 

 

Eileen, please lock this thread is serves no further useful purpose.

[Eileen Stein]

Eileen, please lock this thread is serves no further useful purpose.

 

Well, I gotta agree with that. But first:

 

desertranger, soloagility is apparently using the word "punishment" as behavioral conditioning terminology (see the "estimulation" thread for a brief explanation), rather than in its common everyday meaning. It appears that she is probably philosophically committed to "positive reinforcement only" training methods, as many are these days. Some are quite evangelical about it, as you've seen. I personally dislike the use of the word "punishment" in this way, but you should understand that it's technical jargon, and not necessarily an accusation of cruelty.