Would you clone your dog?

[Jumpin Boots]

To me, the idea of cloning seems like the cool technical word for backyard breeding. How many times do you hear of litters being bred b/c the bitch is such a great dog, or the two dogs are so sweet so of course their puppies will be amazing. It seems like while the whole idea is an advance in science, it is also a regression in breeding standards. I have never purchased a puppy, mine are all rescues, but in looking at the working lines that are out there, it seems like a top priority is or should be how can we improve this dog. Cloning isn't an improvement, it's an attempted copy that we don't even know what all of the reprocusion will be and here people are letting there hearts lead the way.

 

In the last few years there have been a few (two I believe) past top cutting horses cloned and one top barrel horse for the purpose of breeding. I think it is sick that these people consider themselves professionals in the equine world and would make this move when there is just not enough information out there and they are not doing b/c they love the animal, even though C. James (the barrel racer) says that is one of the top reasons, to me it is pretty obvious the top reason is the bottom line. Again, in my opinion the whole idea of breeding any species (humans included) should be to improve what is already out there.

 

Sorry, my fingers lost control...so to answer the question...no, I would not consider cloning any of my dogs or horses or myself (which I'm sure will be possible sooner than later). I plan on enjoying the one ride I have and giving my companions (ie dogs and horses, oh and boyfriend) the best they could hope for.

[Beach BCs]

Even if it were free there's now way I would do it. It's not the same animal. I have a 'reformed' feral dog (Georgia). If I cloned her, the dog I ended up with would not be the same as the Georgia I have now. She was shaped (for good or bad) by the experiences she had. And I love her just the way she is. If we start cloning our dogs #1 we'll be sorely disappointed and #2 it would take away the 'special-ness', that once in a lifetime relationship.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

To put it in SoloRiver's way: would you buy a clone of Wiston Cap for a typical puppy price?

 

Maybe I would, just to stud out this dog. Since his genetics would be identical (in theory) to Cap's, it's possible they might be as valuable today as they were in the seventies when he was available. Although, there are other dogs I'd prefer to bring back for this reason, rather than Wiston Cap. Wartime Cap. Tony Iley's Jace. Tim Flood's Pip. The first Gilcrist Spot.

 

But as far as bringing back a dog like Cap for me - no way. What on earth would I do with a dog who matured to the International level at the age of eighteen months? I don't have the work for a dog like that. My dogs have always been slow maturing, thank goodness - they develop at my pace and it's best for them.

 

Really, would there have been a Wiston Cap without a Jock Richardson? There were plenty of Wiston dogs around at the time and they did well - and they demonstrated the depth of the genetics of that line when people started breeding to/from them, too. But there was only one Cap.

 

I'm no Jock Richardson - or Bobby Henderson, or Bobby Dalziel (though we are very distantly related), or John Thomas, or Alisdair McRae, or JM Wilson, or Johnny Wilson - so the temptation to own clones of the "greats" is not very strong in me. It would seem a bit like keeping Martin Luther King in the basement and saying, "Now Martin dear, just don't do anything, okay?"

[somewhereinusa]

I mean no disrespect to any dog living or dead, but I have said for years that,

"The best dogs are dead, and the longer they have been dead the better they get"

 

My first Border Collie changed my life, because of him I bought a small farm and trained stock dogs for

a number of years. He was a tremendous dog and taught me many things. Would he have been different

had he not spent the first couple of years in an apartment and a machine shop? Definitely! Did he have faults?

Yes. Would I clone him? NO. The clone would NOT be Mac, I have no way of reproducing the way he was raised,

nor would I want to. I'm not the same person that I was back then.

Would I buy an bred exactly like him? Yes, I'd borrow money to do it. Would I buy any of

his pups if available? Maybe.If that pup was also from a dog named Molly? Yes. That dog has been dead for many

years, and I still think of him almost daily.

 

I an not a poet, and this probably breaks every rule in the book, but here is the only poem I have ever written.

The first four verses I wrote while he was still alive, and although I knew what the last verse would probably say,

I WOULD NOT write it until he was gone.

 

In the spring, when he was just a pup

we brought him to live with us

he was just a tiny little thing, but so sure of himself

and as he learned the ways of the world , and grew, sound of body and mind

good manners and the things a good citizen should know,

when I’d throw a ball, he’d bring it back and say “ I’d like to do that again”

 

In the summer, when he’d grown big and strong

we went to a Sheepdog trial, and found, what a Border Collie was all about

so, we started to learn , he and I,

for you see, he already knew about making them move,

and when something we tried didn’t work out just right,

he’d look up and say “We can do better, let’s try it again”

 

In the fall, he was in his prime, quite a sight

standing proud at what he’d become

we would work all day long, as the partners we’d become

and when, after a hard job was done, and the sheep in the pen

he’d look up and say “That was fun, let’s do it again”

 

In the winter, when he was getting quite gray

it was so nice to lay in the sun,

and watch sons and grandsons, do the hard dirty work

but he always had that look that said

“If you need any help, I’d be glad to help again”

 

In the spring, where he is now, forever young

the aches and pains are all gone

with endless green hills, and sheep far to see

I know he’ll meet me when I get there too

and say “Hi Boss, let’s get to work again”

 

 

Dick

[Caroline Reichard]

Maybe I would, just to stud out this dog. Since his genetics would be identical (in theory) to Cap's, it's possible they might be as valuable today as they were in the seventies when he was available. Although, there are other dogs I'd prefer to bring back for this reason, rather than Wiston Cap. Wartime Cap. Tony Iley's Jace. Tim Flood's Pip. The first Gilcrist Spot.

 

But as far as bringing back a dog like Cap for me - no way. What on earth would I do with a dog who matured to the International level at the age of eighteen months? ...

Really, would there have been a Wiston Cap without a Jock Richardson? There were plenty of Wiston dogs around at the time and they did well - and they demonstrated the depth of the genetics of that line when people started breeding to/from them, too. But there was only one Cap.

 

Well, I chose Wiston Cap off the top of my head, but he seems like a good choice for this discussion since (1) if a person knows anything about Border collie history, they know this name, (2) he himself was a closely bred dog, (3) he was prepotent, and (4) there was more than one opinion about Cap among people who saw him run.

 

It seems to me that while there may not be many Jock Richardsons, there are many people who would have been able to get a lot out of that dog. His impact on our breed is hard to overstate; he has put in some great things and, apparently, some more problematic things, too. Were clones of Cap available, I have no doubt that they would be highly sought after and widely used, both in the ISDS/USBCHA world and the AKC/KC. (Imagine RS with a Cap clone.). I imagine that Cap clones would win trials, and I feel even more certain that they would be bred like crazy. The idea of seeing such clones working or trialing seems kind of groovy, but imagining the effect on our gene pool with multiples of the same highly-regarded dog being used over and over again makes me shudder.

 

I know that you know this already, Becca, but for the benefit of new readers: what I think is most scary is that large scale breeding of a great animal will lead to the expression of undesirable AND desirable traits. Suppose the great dog in question, the dog from which all sane handlers would like a pup, carries a hypothetical, now-undetectable, gene for a rare but serious genetic problem: let's call it "Adult Onset Purple Bloat Syndrome." Within a few generations we might have a bunch more great working dogs -- many of whom are carriers for or are themselves fat, lavender disasters.

 

The idea of cloning your pet poodle Fifi seems gross and silly but would do no lasting harm to the miniature poodle breed (if, indeed, such a thing can be conceived). But the idea of cloning a great animal seems scary because of the obvious appeal it will have for individuals followed by the huge impact it would have on a gene pool.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I actually think, offhand (the genetics experts here can correct me if I'm wrong) - but if it were possible to get a "time machine clone", it would have the opposite effect of what you fear. The gene pool tends towards less variety over time as founder genes are concentrated - but only certain lines of those genes - others drop out of the gene pool over time. Going back to older lines would almost be like bringing in an outside bred dog - a Kelpie or something - only with all Border Collie characteristics. Let's say you could somehow bring back Herdman's Tommy from the pre WW I years. Or as I mentioned, Iley's Jace who was matched to Wiston Cap lines with such incredible success (imagine the ability to use this dog on the many Bwlch line dogs out there today).

 

By breeding such valuable dogs of proven genetic worth not just to other proven mates, but also to "grade" working females as they were used in their day, great expansion would be possible.

 

Well, just a wild and crazy thought. I'm not in favor of cloning and I frankly would be afraid that Nature would put some mechanisms in place to prevent such a "cheat" on the natural progress of a population. Anyway, the old tried and true way of maintaining and improving what we've got is far more rewarding than popping pups out of a test tube.

 

I'd withdraw my inclination against this technology for one reason - if it became possible, somehow, to develop cloned organs - and I can see where cloning whole animals would be a necessary first step towards figuring this out.

 

Interesting discussion.

[Caroline Reichard]

I actually think, offhand (the genetics experts here can correct me if I'm wrong) - but if it were possible to get a "time machine clone", it would have the opposite effect of what you fear. The gene pool tends towards less variety over time as founder genes are concentrated - but only certain lines of those genes - others drop out of the gene pool over time. Going back to older lines would almost be like bringing in an outside bred dog - a Kelpie or something - only with all Border Collie characteristics. Let's say you could somehow bring back Herdman's Tommy from the pre WW I years. Or as I mentioned, Iley's Jace who was matched to Wiston Cap lines with such incredible success (imagine the ability to use this dog on the many Bwlch line dogs out there today).

 

The idea of using a pre-Wiston Cap, or perhaps better, a pre-3036 Cap clone to inject into a modern breeding pool is an interesting thought experiment. I'd be interestd in the expert opinions. I'm not certain that such a dog would have the kind of immediate, explosive effect on the gene pool that I am imagining, though. No living person has seen Tommy work and there are no films of him. Whose to say how appealing he would be to modern tastes?

 

With the fact that semen off of great dogs is now routinely stored, I'd also be interested in the expert opinions about whether or not this is just a hypothetical or whether sometime down the road such genetic material might conceivably be used for cloning.

 

I agree: interesting discussion.

[SoloRiver]

It would only introduce interesting diversity if you brought back a great dog who wasn't widely used in his or her day, and whose impact was perhaps recognized "too late" in the dogs he or she did produce. Bringing back Wiston Cap wouldn't give us much. There's hardly a Border Collie alive today (if there are any at all) that doesn't have Wiston Cap behind it, multiple times.

 

"No Wiston Cap, Please"

 

If I could do this, I would want to go WAY back, as in have a time machine and see dogs much earlier than Cap (I'd bring someone with me who was more knowledgeable than me, of course) and use those dogs. Like, from 1876 or whatever. Now that would be interesting. Maybe those dogs would be rough, but would they have something that we could take and whittle into something useful in further breeding? Probably.

 

It might also make more sense, if you wanted to increase the influence of a great individual, to clone a great bitch rather than a great dog. My guess is that most good and influential dogs did produce plenty of pups in their days, but bitches are necessarily limited in the offspring they could produce.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Melanie, I named the most of the dogs I did for those very reasons. Underrated, and also made a name for themselves as bitch producers. Females that put to top producers, consistently passed on a balance of the two lines. Imagine having a stud who we knew that every female from him, would pass on the useful characteristics of any stud she was bred to.

 

I wouldn't go back before Telfer's time. I'd want that first few generations of culling out the really unpredictable genetics.

[painted_ponies]

Clone a dog? Of course not, what a perfectly awful idea.

 

Oh, BTW, Julie, I'm sending you a swab in the mail. Just rub it around the inside of Pip's cheek and send it back, will you? I'm collecting collie spit for, um, a church fund-raiser. Kthxbye.

[Lizmo]

I think it's a more interesting question if we take the money thing out of the picture. Let's say cloning was free. Then would you do it?

 

No. As much as I like my dog, I like that each new dog I have brings a new temperment, experiences, and challanges with it. I like that my dogs are different.

[sweet_ceana]

No way would I clone a dog. It is a slippery slope that I would not want to start down. I used to think about cloning a lot in my first years of college. Cloning was the reason I was a Molecular, Cellular, and Developmental Biology Major for 2 years before I learned I did not love biology as much as I wanted to. Every time I sat down to think cloning through it always came up with a bad ending for me. It felt like a choose your own adventure book that ended badly no matter the path that you went. IMHO the gains are not worth the troubles that would follow, but then again the extent of my knowledge ends somewhere around putting the p-glo DNA segment (plasmid???- wow it has been a while) into ecoli to watch it glow. So I know jack-s***. To make a long answer short, I'll leave the big decision to those who can actually know enough to seperate sci-fi from real implications and on a personal note I would always say no.

[juliepoudrier]

Clone a dog? Of course not, what a perfectly awful idea.

 

Oh, BTW, Julie, I'm sending you a swab in the mail. Just rub it around the inside of Pip's cheek and send it back, will you? I'm collecting collie spit for, um, a church fund-raiser. Kthxbye.

 

Sally,

Pip sez....

 

"Come get your own sample. Bring wine. And by the way, I've found me a new lap to snuggle in!"

 

(Photo by Kristie Pope)

 

A Pip clone might be a very scary thing indeed!

 

J.

[painted_ponies]

Agh! Pip is cheating on me? Tell him I'll be glad to bring wine and a lap - so long as he is clear that I confine my cell-collecting to, um, points north of the border.

 

That is some face, idnit?

[desertranger]

As much as I would love to clone som eof my dogs I couldn't do it. He/she may look the same but it's not going to be the same dog.

[Jumpin Boots]

This is interesting timing, I just recieved this months issues of America's Horse, it's a magazine that goes out to Quarter Horse members. So not totally related, but kind of.

 

Up until this time AQHA has not allowed the registration of cloned foals, but they are considering a rules change at the convention this year.

 

One thing I noticed in the the article which was interesting is that Texas A&M produced 5 clones from Smart Little Lena, an all-time leading sire. With the purpose of all five to be used for breeding. While their color is all the same, the facial markings, height and confirmation of all of them varie somewhat, as well as their personalities.

 

The article also talks about issues w/ the placentas of the foals which while this issues can happen in normal pregnancies too, the rate seems to be much higher in the clones foals.

 

Just thought this real-world discussion might apply to our hypothetical cloning discussion.

[Mark Billadeau]

I think it would be totally unfair to the clone.

 

Can you imagine how one would expect a clone to live up to (or exceed) what the original was and the pressure we would place on the clone to meet our expectations? This already happens to pups out of "special" dogs and we're more likely to clone these "special" dogs (where special could be in an emotional sense or working sense).

 

Mark