Another newby

[karl]

Hello all,

I’m new the board and the world of herding. I am however a “do it your selfer” and have trained dogs for hunt tests (helped by trainers), started and trained my horses to rope, which has steered me towards my new challenge of having a stock dog.

I knew I was starting in a possible BIG hole by accepting a neighbors dog for free. Nothing is free and I know how important breeding is. The back ground is simply that the dog would come over from the neighbors while I was gathering roping steers in a small pasture adjacent to their house. The dog really just got in the way but I liked the way she moved and could tell she wanted to herd something. The kid got the dog last year. So this year I got the bright idea that I wanted a cow dog and not one of those pesky heelers running all over this part of the country (no offence heeler owners) so I asked the kid what kind of dog she was. He said she was a Border Collie out of Cedar City Utah (I am trying to track down the breeder) and came from working lines. He kind of caught me by surprise when he said that if I wanted the dog, I could have her. Well the rest is now…

 

Now that I have turned this into a short novel : ) I went to work. I ordered a training video, The perfect stock dog, and I found a trainer who has been very helpful and I am continuing with her help. We are stuck on some pressure issues with the dog and I am considering this an evaluation period as well as training the dog for a job. I went into this with my eyes wide open to the fact that the dog my just not work out. I’ll cross that bridge when It is clear to me that the dog will not work out.

 

I would like to get some of your opinions concerning working sheep to bolster and train with the ultimate goal of working cattle. She gets excited about working stock and I am training on both sheep and cows. However she has been showing some confidence issues and I have been working primarily sheep for the past week. We are actually going back a few steps and working is a small pen (just like in the video) and working the sheep off the rail.

The problem is when face to face with the stock, she backs down. So I have and continue to always back her up. I have taken some steers in a squeeze chute to try and encourage her to the head. She was very reluctant but is strong on the heels. I know I need to address this problem because stock will run all over her if she can’t get their respect however I am thinking of working her from horseback while continuing training on the ground as well. My thought is that we break up the routine of the close work in the pen and work with horses in the mix. Perhaps I would be asking too much of the dog but I am not expecting much, more the exposure of it all.

 

I got to go to work now but I like the idea of getting feedback so I thought I would start this thread. Thanks.

[juliepoudrier]

How long have you had this dog? My first thought was that you simply may be asking for too much too soon. You also don't say how old she is, but if the neighbor kid got her as a pup last year, then she's pretty young and your training may be putting too much pressure on her for her age.

 

J.

[Laura L]

You say that you have found a trainer who is helpful. Can you just work with that trainer for a while and not work on your own stock at home? It sounds like you're starting from the very beginning here-you're new, your dog is new and so is your stock. You're pretty much asking the impossible here. Take it slow. You and the dog should get the basics down first and then work on dog breaking your stock.

 

Find out if there's going to be any clinics in your area. Even if you go just to spectate you can learn a lot. Go to some trials and watch the runs, talk with handlers (not before their run though please). Keep watching videos, reading and asking questions.

 

Laura

[karl]

How long have you had this dog? My first thought was that you simply may be asking for too much too soon. You also don't say how old she is, but if the neighbor kid got her as a pup last year, then she's pretty young and your training may be putting too much pressure on her for her age.

 

J.

 

About two months. I may be. 1 1/2 to two years old. I am not putting much negative (imo)pressure at this point mostly encouragement type of pressure.

[karl]

You say that you have found a trainer who is helpful. Can you just work with that trainer for a while and not work on your own stock at home? It sounds like you're starting from the very beginning here-you're new, your dog is new and so is your stock. You're pretty much asking the impossible here. Take it slow. You and the dog should get the basics down first and then work on dog breaking your stock.

 

Find out if there's going to be any clinics in your area. Even if you go just to spectate you can learn a lot. Go to some trials and watch the runs, talk with handlers (not before their run though please). Keep watching videos, reading and asking questions.

 

Laura

 

That is not really an option for me. The distance between us would be an obstical I don't need to jump. Like everyone time is a limiting factor. My trainer has been gracious enough to even travel to my place and help out. Our next training session will proubably be at her place because of her stock as you already noted. The dog definantly works better on her sheep.

 

...watching videos, reading and asking questions...you got it

[juliepoudrier]

Karl,

Training is pressure. I dog that young needs positive experiences. She doesn't need to be put in situations where she's over her head and she definitely doesn't need to have stock facing her off or challenging her at this early stage in her training. As Laura said, it sounds like your stock aren't used to being worked by dogs and you should have dog-broke stock to start with so that your youngster can learn to work properly without having to deal with the challenges of non-dog-broke sheep or cattle (because you're asking an inexperienced dog, along with an inexperienced handler, to break the stock when it doesn't even know how to properly work them--a recipe for disaster when it comes to training). Perhaps your trainer could sell you five or six dog-broke sheep for training purposes? IMO, the worst thing you can do when starting a young dog is starting it on inappropriate stock. Even if working cattle is your eventual goal, you should be starting with dog-broke sheep, goats, or calves.

 

ETA: In just two weeks, the dog hasn't really had time to bond with you or learn to trust you, so she's not likely to be able to gain much confidence from you while working either. If she were mine, I'd stop the training for a while and work on bonding with her first. In the meantime, you can work on finding appropriate training stock.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

A couple of quick points --

 

Many times dogs take positive encouragement exactly the opposite way we think they should, and it makes the dog feel worse instead of hopped up and eager.

 

You might try to get in touch with the breeder to see what he/she has to say about dogs of that breeding. It's possible they're slow maturing, or just not cut out for cattle work, or any number of other things. The breeder, if it's a good one breeding for work, can be an invaluable resource for you.

[Lenajo]

The video you have - it is the Ben Means video? Most of that video uses a long rope to work the dog in a small pen. This will work for dogs that are the hard charging biting type, but other dogs can become reluctant and worried. The same with gripping heads. If a dog is worried and you talk them into biting that head in the squeeze chute anyway....then the cow naturally crashes backwards, and the poor dog says "why on earth would I want to do that again!".

 

The #1 problem with videos is that they can't see *your* dog. Perhaps you could give a general location and someone could direct you to hands on help? I definately second the idea of getting some dog broke sheep.

 

I wouldn't judge the potential on the dog you describe for 6 months or more. She's young, she doesn't know you, and who knows what has happened to mess with her confidence while she was wandering around loose. The fact that she's still willing to try and you've got her working at all is great.

[karl]

Karl,

Training is pressure. I dog that young needs positive experiences. She doesn't need to be put in situations where she's over her head and she definitely doesn't need to have stock facing her off or challenging her at this early stage in her training. As Laura said, it sounds like your stock aren't used to being worked by dogs and you should have dog-broke stock to start with so that your youngster can learn to work properly without having to deal with the challenges of non-dog-broke sheep or cattle (because you're asking an inexperienced dog, along with an inexperienced handler, to break the stock when it doesn't even know how to properly work them--a recipe for disaster when it comes to training). Perhaps your trainer could sell you five or six dog-broke sheep for training purposes? IMO, the worst thing you can do when starting a young dog is starting it on inappropriate stock. Even if working cattle is your eventual goal, you should be starting with dog-broke sheep, goats, or calves.

 

ETA: In just two weeks, the dog hasn't really had time to bond with you or learn to trust you, so she's not likely to be able to gain much confidence from you while working either. If she were mine, I'd stop the training for a while and work on bonding with her first. In the meantime, you can work on finding appropriate training stock.

 

J.

Thanks, please don’t get too panicked for the dog. As I stated I have and will continue to back her up. Of course that will be a little tougher to do on horse back which is really the reason I probably will hold off a while. Part of the original question was about the sheep being a gateway necessary for cattle. I see most agree so far that is a good path to persue. Are there any of you who work exclusively cattle?

 

I’ve had the dog for about two months and we are bonding just fine. She has not even headed for home in about two weeks : of course during her cycle I moved her to the garage so perhaps that helps.

[karl]

A couple of quick points --

 

Many times dogs take positive encouragement exactly the opposite way we think they should, and it makes the dog feel worse instead of hopped up and eager.

 

You might try to get in touch with the breeder to see what he/she has to say about dogs of that breeding. It's possible they're slow maturing, or just not cut out for cattle work, or any number of other things. The breeder, if it's a good one breeding for work, can be an invaluable resource for you.

Good point about the possible results of positive encouragement. As I said, I don't know the breeder but am going to try and find out who it was if nothing more than learning about the parents. the

lady I am training with now has been doing a wonderful job. Hi Jaime.

[karl]

The video you have - it is the Ben Means video? Most of that video uses a long rope to work the dog in a small pen. This will work for dogs that are the hard charging biting type, but other dogs can become reluctant and worried. The same with gripping heads. If a dog is worried and you talk them into biting that head in the squeeze chute anyway....then the cow naturally crashes backwards, and the poor dog says "why on earth would I want to do that again!".

 

The #1 problem with videos is that they can't see *your* dog. Perhaps you could give a general location and someone could direct you to hands on help? I definately second the idea of getting some dog broke sheep.

 

I wouldn't judge the potential on the dog you describe for 6 months or more. She's young, she doesn't know you, and who knows what has happened to mess with her confidence while she was wandering around loose. The fact that she's still willing to try and you've got her working at all is great.

Yes it is Ben's video. Actually he takes the dog off the lead although he has a small cord about 4ft on for a little longer in the training. The dog I have is nowere near the dog Ben has in the video and I can get her attention mostly with my voice. I appreciate what you say about the chute because that is of course what happened. ( the cow crashes backwards) I am not sure if that is what the dog said. Do you have any other suggestions to encourage the dog towards the head? Although it was a little noisy, it was safe for the dog. She is still trying and I am still trying. I am just bouncing ideas/questions around. I have a line on a puppy from a guy that uses the parents on cattle. I will keep working this girl because she does actually have some tallent and I would like to develope it to see where we go. It is also time I am learning the game as well. I am reasonably positive she has been chased around the pasture by the cows. That is why if figured I could ride with her on them trying to incorporate that expirence with the training she has now been doing. While I acknowledge her shyness is a problem it also is a smart trait in that she dosen't get hurt. That is another thing I am being careful about. I don't want to confuse courage with stupid. For either one of us.

[Lane Campbell]

I use my dogs in my cattle operation so I do start all my dogs on cattle. With this said I

feel it is important to say that I only use weaned "dog-broke" calves or holstein steers

bought to train dogs on.

 

I would suggest that you step back a little and be sure you have done the basic level of

work required before I even let my pups see stock. I make sure my dogs have a solid

down, a recall, and understand that I am in charge.

 

I take the young dogs with me every day doing basic chores like feeding, checking water

troughs, or just riding thru checking cows. If I have done my job correctly the dog under-

stands that it does not go to stock unless asked. When I work the dog it is in a very controlled

environment where I can make sure the dog always wins. If the calves turn on him/her I

am ALWAYS there to help and if he/she lacks confidence I use an older dog to make sure

the pup wins.

 

I would not worry at all about bite at this point. I have found that the dogs with too much

bite early on either get hurt or abuse my stock. I would never let a dog take "cheap shots"

at a calf in a squeeze chute or alley or anywhere else. I really believe these dogs are smart

enough to figure out what tools they have in their box and how to use them. We just have to

guide them. A good dog can move "dog-broke" stock just by being in the right place at the

right time about 90 percent of the time. If he/she learns that first they will also find a way to

make it work the other 10 percent of the time.

 

I would also say that most mistakes you will make can be corrected later. After all this isn't

rocket science, just use common sense and take your time .......... Lane

[Smokjbc]

Hi Karl!

 

Karl's dog is the one I posted about in the Ask The Expert section. I think she has good potential and will probably need a little more confidence boosting and good experience. Karl has done a great job (far better than most people I work with) researching the breed and how to use them and has worked hard to develop a good relationship with Jamie (I like her name )

 

I just wanted to mention that Karl and I are in Southern Nevada, which is practically a stockdog wasteland when it comes to having dog broke stock, clinics and a variety of trainers to choose from. When I started working these dogs I had to get all the mileage I could out of what clinics I could travel to, books, videos and the rest was all trial and error. So Karl really does have to "do it yourself" more so than most people. I'm the closest stockdog person and am still over an hour away. I just thought I'd mention that, since the advice here is sound, but the situation here does not allow for some of it.

 

The sheep Karl has at home are reasonable for her to work, but they have figured out that she will not come to the fence to pull them off. I really enjoy working Karl's sheep and plan on bringing my experienced dogs out some more and hopefully we can rectify the sheep's response to the dog.

[Laura L]

Karl,

 

If you've got Jaime coming over to help break your livestock and she's helping you train, you're in good hands. Keep an eye out for a clinic near you, even if you just go for a day you can pick up a lot of good information.

 

Laura

[stockdogranch]

I work my dogs on cattle and trial them on cattle. But I start them all on sheep because I can control what sheep do better than I can control what cattle do, even dog broke cattle. Sheep are a good stepping stone, as you can get the dog used to all sorts of pressure, from dog broke sheep to nasty mommas with little lambs, and everything in between, including small pen work, taking them off a fence, and so on. As for working the dog off horseback--I have never found it to make one bit of difference--the dog knows it's you--you're just taller, and the dog works the same as it always does. I know it's a bit of a drive (Ok, a major outing), but if you want to make a trip out here and spend a day or two, Jaime knows where I am and I always have decent calves to work. When I first introduce a youngster to calves from sheep, I always have a seasoned dog there as backup, mostly to show the young'un that it's Ok to hit heels and noses and such. I also find that if a dog is a natural heeler, it can take a while for the dog to feel comfortable hitting a nose. It often starts with a "cheap shot"-- a fly-by. But that's a beginning, and often it builds to a more calm and deliberate nose hit from there over time as the dog matures and builds confidence.

 

A

[karl]

I work my dogs on cattle and trial them on cattle. But I start them all on sheep because I can control what sheep do better than I can control what cattle do, even dog broke cattle. Sheep are a good stepping stone, as you can get the dog used to all sorts of pressure, from dog broke sheep to nasty mommas with little lambs, and everything in between, including small pen work, taking them off a fence, and so on. As for working the dog off horseback--I have never found it to make one bit of difference--the dog knows it's you--you're just taller, and the dog works the same as it always does. I know it's a bit of a drive (Ok, a major outing), but if you want to make a trip out here and spend a day or two, Jaime knows where I am and I always have decent calves to work. When I first introduce a youngster to calves from sheep, I always have a seasoned dog there as backup, mostly to show the young'un that it's Ok to hit heels and noses and such. I also find that if a dog is a natural heeler, it can take a while for the dog to feel comfortable hitting a nose. It often starts with a "cheap shot"-- a fly-by. But that's a beginning, and often it builds to a more calm and deliberate nose hit from there over time as the dog matures and builds confidence.

 

A

Thanks for the info. That is what Jaime has us doing. I'll have to talk to Jaime about a road trip in the future. I would like to work on some broke cattle.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

How many sheep are they and can you get them in a small pen? REaly small, like to do a packed pen?

 

Possibly Robin could post her version of the packed pen. Most packed pen exercises I've seen have been "sink or swim" and I've seen mixed results from it. When she does it, she makes sure the dog can win right from the start. But she'll post, I hope. Maybe that wouldn't be good in this situation but I'd be inclined to do it so that if nothing else these sheep will get broken of taking advantage of her on the fenceline. I know how frustrating that can be.

[ThunderHill]

Karl -- good luck to you and your dog. It sounds like you could be putting together a fine team. You're sure going the right way about it.

 

I haven't worked cattle a whole lot, but I have been to a couple of cattle-oriented training clinics. I started with a couple of those heeler dawgs <g> and now have at least one Border Collie who's interested in cattle. I have a couple of the Ben Means videos in my library of training references.

 

I'm told that roping steers can be a little hard to start on, I guess because they've already formed some opinions about what to expect from humans, horses, and maybe even dogs. But you have the resources you have. With your own experience, you're way ahead of folks without stock at all. I can think of several times I've seen adults at clinics who had worked stock (both sheep and cattle) themselves for years without dogs. They kept finding themselves being in the spot where the dog needed to be at first. They had a fine feel for what was needed, just had to translate it to their new 4-legged partner. Usually those folks went as far as they wanted pretty fast, because they already had their own well developed stock sense. So you're definitely ahead of the game there.

 

About biting/gripping. As has been said, your dog is still pretty young and may just be coming to the age where you'll see what s/he's got in that department. Good news is, it sounds like you have a "thinker" on your hands, not an all-out alligator. A brave dog who's willing to hold the pressure and not rush in to bite all the time (before it's needed) has a good chance of getting non-riled-up cattle to go the way you want. Keeping things slow, staying patient, and not getting into unnecessary fights seems to go a long way toward success with cattle.

 

Some dogs turn out to only want to bite heads. Some dogs only want to bite heels. Some will do both when necessary.

 

My 3 year old male Border Collie will currently hit heads if challenged, but so far has been reluctant to heel. (He might yet. After years of not even pushing sheep very hard, his momma suddenly turned on to cows when she was about 5 years old. It's a hoot to watch her scientifically tweezing those fetlocks now.) My boy is an even-tempered dog who doesn't take cheap shots, so I'll let him get a bit wound up on cattle, if the chance offers and IF a heel bite would be correct. I believe if he gets one solid heel bite and sees the result, he may well have a breakthrough about the whole thing. That's just this particular dog, though.

 

However, it took us a while to get him to even grip noses. Even on sheep. This might (or might not) apply to your dog, too.

 

Apparently, this dog of mine won't bite unless it's called for IN HIS JUDGMENT. He carries around an invisible rule book, and somewhere in there it says, "You may not bite unless the stock are actively fighting/attacking you." He's also much more patient (and correct) than I am with ornery stock. He'll stand his ground in situations where I would long since have taken a whack with my stick, and so far he's not been wrong. When we first tried to get him to grip on command, by one of the fairly common methods (holding a sheep with its head toward him and asking him to walk up and hit it), he looked at me like I was criminally insane. I HAD the sheep. I had the sheep TOTALLY UNDER CONTROL. Why the heck should he step up and bite it? It wouldn't be fair to the sheep. And a bite on the sheep's nose would very likely mess up my ability to keep control of it, too.

 

And, well, er... he was right.

 

This same dog *will* hit a sheep that's about to slam him. He'll hit cattle heads. And he'll occasionally lose his temper and grab a determined runner by the ear. With this particular dog, that's not so much about prey drive as it is about punishment. It says in his rule book that if he treats the stock fairly, they have to react fairly. Or they get spanked. But regardless, if biting is involved, I don't get to make that call. I'm allowed to give permission; but since I'm just a bloodthirsty, impatient human with only a rudimentary ability to truly understand stock -- he takes the ultimate responsibility for unholstering his pearly whites.

 

Not all dogs are wired that way. I think my sheep would tell you, he's a good dog for me.

 

Anyway, your dog might feel a little the same way about being asked to bite a cow in a chute. Why bite the animal that's already trapped? (Apart from the off-putting crashing and thrashing potential.) I don't know your set-up so I could easily be visualizing this wrong. The dog may not see the point; and for some dogs (not all) understanding the need for a particular action can be important.

 

One time we did start some dogs on some people-broke but non-dog-broke hungry steer calves, by putting a container with some grain close to the outside of a fenced pen, where the calves could reach through the rails. The dogs (and the humans) stayed outside the fence at first. Dogs were on leash (at first) but given plenty of slack to make their decisions, good or bad. The dogs' job was to keep the steers out of the bucket. Pretty soon most of them figured it out and were honking calf noses. The steers had plenty of room in their pen to get away. The dogs had a resource to guard (familiar, instinctual set up which made sense to them) and the protection of the fence for those who were initially intimidated. They graduated pretty fast to guarding the bucket inside the pen. A side benefit was that it helped start dog-breaking the cattle at the same time, just using beginner dogs. (Also, having the fence there helped keep some of the more enthusiastic dogs from just picking non-educational fights. The dog who tried to grip and hang on got a beautifully timed automatic self-correction from the fence.)

 

We did NOT spend a lot of time at this, just long enough for there to be a break-through if it was going to happen. It wasn't useful for everyone. I don't have enough experience to know if any old cattle would put up with this. It was not 100% safe for the dogs. But working cattle never is. (Or other stockwork, but cattle up the ante.)

 

Anyway, there's a few bits for you. Good luck!

 

Liz Sharpe

Gift and Joss

The Deuce & Baxter (retired heeler h*llions)

[amc]

Apparently, this dog of mine won't bite unless it's called for IN HIS JUDGMENT. He carries around an invisible rule book, and somewhere in there it says, "You may not bite unless the stock are actively fighting/attacking you." He's also much more patient (and correct) than I am with ornery stock. He'll stand his ground in situations where I would long since have taken a whack with my stick, and so far he's not been wrong. When we first tried to get him to grip on command, by one of the fairly common methods (holding a sheep with its head toward him and asking him to walk up and hit it), he looked at me like I was criminally insane. I HAD the sheep. I had the sheep TOTALLY UNDER CONTROL. Why the heck should he step up and bite it? It wouldn't be fair to the sheep. And a bite on the sheep's nose would very likely mess up my ability to keep control of it, too.

 

This is a perfect description of my old Pete's way with stock. If he didn't think a bite was called for, I couldn't make him; if he did think it needed, I couldn't stop him. He was almost always correct. He's 14 now and long retired, but he had a great 10 years as a masterful set out dog and he was 12th in the 2003 National Cattledog Finals. He was always livelier when working cattle, but his basic method was the same regardless of the species.

 

Amy

[karl]

Karl -- good luck to you and your dog. It sounds like you could be putting together a fine team. You're sure going the right way about it.

 

I haven't worked cattle a whole lot, but I have been to a couple of cattle-oriented training clinics. I started with a couple of those heeler dawgs <g> and now have at least one Border Collie who's interested in cattle. I have a couple of the Ben Means videos in my library of training references.

 

I'm told that roping steers can be a little hard to start on, I guess because they've already formed some opinions about what to expect from humans, horses, and maybe even dogs. But you have the resources you have. With your own experience, you're way ahead of folks without stock at all. I can think of several times I've seen adults at clinics who had worked stock (both sheep and cattle) themselves for years without dogs. They kept finding themselves being in the spot where the dog needed to be at first. They had a fine feel for what was needed, just had to translate it to their new 4-legged partner. Usually those folks went as far as they wanted pretty fast, because they already had their own well developed stock sense. So you're definitely ahead of the game there.

 

About biting/gripping. As has been said, your dog is still pretty young and may just be coming to the age where you'll see what s/he's got in that department. Good news is, it sounds like you have a "thinker" on your hands, not an all-out alligator. A brave dog who's willing to hold the pressure and not rush in to bite all the time (before it's needed) has a good chance of getting non-riled-up cattle to go the way you want. Keeping things slow, staying patient, and not getting into unnecessary fights seems to go a long way toward success with cattle.

 

Some dogs turn out to only want to bite heads. Some dogs only want to bite heels. Some will do both when necessary.

 

My 3 year old male Border Collie will currently hit heads if challenged, but so far has been reluctant to heel. (He might yet. After years of not even pushing sheep very hard, his momma suddenly turned on to cows when she was about 5 years old. It's a hoot to watch her scientifically tweezing those fetlocks now.) My boy is an even-tempered dog who doesn't take cheap shots, so I'll let him get a bit wound up on cattle, if the chance offers and IF a heel bite would be correct. I believe if he gets one solid heel bite and sees the result, he may well have a breakthrough about the whole thing. That's just this particular dog, though.

 

However, it took us a while to get him to even grip noses. Even on sheep. This might (or might not) apply to your dog, too.

 

Apparently, this dog of mine won't bite unless it's called for IN HIS JUDGMENT. He carries around an invisible rule book, and somewhere in there it says, "You may not bite unless the stock are actively fighting/attacking you." He's also much more patient (and correct) than I am with ornery stock. He'll stand his ground in situations where I would long since have taken a whack with my stick, and so far he's not been wrong. When we first tried to get him to grip on command, by one of the fairly common methods (holding a sheep with its head toward him and asking him to walk up and hit it), he looked at me like I was criminally insane. I HAD the sheep. I had the sheep TOTALLY UNDER CONTROL. Why the heck should he step up and bite it? It wouldn't be fair to the sheep. And a bite on the sheep's nose would very likely mess up my ability to keep control of it, too.

 

And, well, er... he was right.

 

This same dog *will* hit a sheep that's about to slam him. He'll hit cattle heads. And he'll occasionally lose his temper and grab a determined runner by the ear. With this particular dog, that's not so much about prey drive as it is about punishment. It says in his rule book that if he treats the stock fairly, they have to react fairly. Or they get spanked. But regardless, if biting is involved, I don't get to make that call. I'm allowed to give permission; but since I'm just a bloodthirsty, impatient human with only a rudimentary ability to truly understand stock -- he takes the ultimate responsibility for unholstering his pearly whites.

 

Not all dogs are wired that way. I think my sheep would tell you, he's a good dog for me.

 

Anyway, your dog might feel a little the same way about being asked to bite a cow in a chute. Why bite the animal that's already trapped? (Apart from the off-putting crashing and thrashing potential.) I don't know your set-up so I could easily be visualizing this wrong. The dog may not see the point; and for some dogs (not all) understanding the need for a particular action can be important.

 

One time we did start some dogs on some people-broke but non-dog-broke hungry steer calves, by putting a container with some grain close to the outside of a fenced pen, where the calves could reach through the rails. The dogs (and the humans) stayed outside the fence at first. Dogs were on leash (at first) but given plenty of slack to make their decisions, good or bad. The dogs' job was to keep the steers out of the bucket. Pretty soon most of them figured it out and were honking calf noses. The steers had plenty of room in their pen to get away. The dogs had a resource to guard (familiar, instinctual set up which made sense to them) and the protection of the fence for those who were initially intimidated. They graduated pretty fast to guarding the bucket inside the pen. A side benefit was that it helped start dog-breaking the cattle at the same time, just using beginner dogs. (Also, having the fence there helped keep some of the more enthusiastic dogs from just picking non-educational fights. The dog who tried to grip and hang on got a beautifully timed automatic self-correction from the fence.)

 

We did NOT spend a lot of time at this, just long enough for there to be a break-through if it was going to happen. It wasn't useful for everyone. I don't have enough experience to know if any old cattle would put up with this. It was not 100% safe for the dogs. But working cattle never is. (Or other stockwork, but cattle up the ante.)

 

Anyway, there's a few bits for you. Good luck!

 

Liz Sharpe

Gift and Joss

The Deuce & Baxter (retired heeler h*llions)

Thank you very much Liz! I appreciate hearing experiences similar to the one I described. I especially appreciate the description of the feed buckets. That is a great idea.

 

I was poking around in another thread that was discussing way to improve the “lift” by using a gate that the sheep could push open. I have a tendency to be a little impatient at times but as long as I don’t feel I am wasting my time I am willing to put in the effort to lay the ground work for success. Thanks again.