Beach BCs Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I’m finally in a position to take Georgia for stockwork lessons. BUT the only place I can take her is an Aussie breeder who trains and works with goats. I was hoping to find someone with sheep. Unfortunately there’s just no one near the coast that I’ve been able to find. What do you all think about goats vs. sheep? This man trains his Aussies for work only. His Aussies don’t look anything like the Aussies one would find at an AKC event. I guess you could say his dogs are a bit rough around the edges in comparison. A comment from the trainer: "I believe that the best breeding programs are those that hold to the belief that form follows function. That is, the way a dog is designed should be based on what its job in life will be. I also believe that all dogs should have a job or work of some kind. As for Aussies, I believe they should be bred to herd and tend livestock. Yes, there are other roles in life for Aussies. I feel that the conformation and characteristics that make them great shepherds also help them to excel in Agility, Frisbee, Obedience, as well as Tracking and Search and Rescue work. I think that a well bred Aussie can take on any task with the help of a loving trainer and friend." When I went to visit him awhile back he told me that he’s trained a few Border Collies. Another visitor commented that Aussies and BCs “are just about the same” and he immediately corrected her with an “oh no they are not”. He later told me that he really liked BCs but that they were a bit sensitive for his taste as an owner. I’m completely green at all this. Georgia has had a couple lessons but that was over a year ago. A few minutes into her first lesson she had a “lightning bolt” moment. Once she realized what she was supposed to do she whipped her head around and looked at me as if to say “Holy Crap!! This is awesome!!” She seemed to really get it and was doing everything she was told. So… comments, questions…all welcome. I have very little knowledge of what I’m getting in to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc friend Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Sara and my late Meg were both trained on goats and then moved up to sheep. (Actually Sara initially started with ducks!). Both dogs had strong herding instincts - Sara had her "light bulb moment" as soon as she saw the ducks - Meg had hers with the goats! But both of them seemed to move sheep more easily. Sara was very vocal with goats, Meg was never vocal on stock- just stared them down! I wouldn't hesitate to try training on goats. JMO, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Have you already seen this person at work? I would say that if you go there and everything looks calm and orderly, and the goats respect his dogs and move off without alot of aggression on the dog's part, then that could be an o.k start for you. Does he have other students you can watch? Do their dogs seem to be learning and able to handle the livestock? Goats that are broke to work can be fine- but even dog broke goats may challenge a dog more often than most sheep do. Be ready to watch that your dog doesn't get intimidated by aggressive stock. I like to work goats alot, but they are very intelligent and often will test a dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactuskate Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 ooHave you already seen this person at work? I would say that if you go there and everything looks calm and orderly, and the goats respect his dogs and move off without alot of aggression on the dog's part, then that could be an o.k start for you. Does he have other students you can watch? Do their dogs seem to be learning and able to handle the livestock? Goats that are broke to work can be fine- but even dog broke goats may challenge a dog more often than most sheep do. Be ready to watch that your dog doesn't get intimidated by aggressive stock. I like to work goats alot, but they are very intelligent and often will test a dog. Everything I Know about herding came from my dog Gus. He was a natural herder at 10 wks old. He started on chickens, then ducks, goats, and on to cattle. I got him some sheep and he was NOT at all interested! I love all animals, my life is ruled by livestock. But sheep are pretty stupid and I think Gus felt they weren't worthy of his unbelievable intellect. Goats are a little more challenging for a dog because when "spooked" they scatter, as sheep stay close to each other. I now have a small herd of goats and when I mention the word "goat", my BC's are ready to go. I just purchased 3 little Nubian does that at present, are living in my basement, due to this extremely cold Michigan winter. It's a BC's dream come true! These girls are not bottle babies, so they are a little leary of humans as yet. My Reva gets to hold them in a corner, so I can get ahold of them when I have had to administer shots and vaccinations.And in typical BC brains, she thinks I cannot do this without her assistance. Its a good idea to make sure the goats your dogs will be working are hornless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 I have seen him work his dogs and yes, it was calm and orderly. No aggression whatsoever. The trainer seems to be a very calm guy. Says what he means, means what he says. He's a retired Marine. I'm going to try to go watch him this weekend with some other students. I'm not too worried about GA getting intimidated. She's a sweet little thing but she's got a steely determination about her. And a stubborn streak about as wide as the Atlantic. Bill (trainer) said he'd keep her from getting in over her head. Thanks for your thoughts. I think I got about half way through my post and realized I had more questions about the instructor than the goats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 You are in the opposite position than I was when we started. We have Aussies and trained with a BC lady. My girl is also very stubborn but trainer did a great job with her. Finally we are in a position where I'm taking over training and it is really hard to keep all the balls in the air so to speak. We had dairy goats when my dog was a pup and they really got after her. Nubian does in the basement; what a brave person. We used to have Alpines and they didn't group well either. Our other dogs were started on angora goats with the trainer and they did group well. They were extremely dog broke though. Have fun and keep a open mind. You will probably want to take videos too. We have all of ours from our lessons and it is a real eye opener. N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Well, after going to watch the instructor with a few of his other students I brought Georgia back for a lesson. Georgia is typically a wiggly giggly silly thing. And she was Oh So Exited to meet new people. Then she saw the goats. Suddenly there was a new dog in town. All business. Bill took her into the round pen to see what she could do. He was pretty happy with her. He said she gathered nicely, handled pressure well. I have little idea of exactly what he means but I know it’s good. I think I need to video her lessons from now on so I can go back and listen and then ask him what this and that meant. I’m clueless but I’ll learn too. He was also pretty surprised that she already has an ‘away’, ‘come bye’, ‘look back’ and a ‘walk up’. I use ‘easy’ to get her to slow down. And she has a pretty good ‘down’. When I taught her the ‘come by’ and ‘away’ it was really only the direction in which to move that I could teach since I had no sheep. It was never perfect but she did it. Obviously there was nothing for her to flank. The ‘look back’ was pretty easy. That I taught to her with random things in the house and yard. If she walked past something that I wanted I’d tell her to ‘look back’ and bring it to me. The ‘walk up’ I used a stationary object in a field or our yard so she’d get the idea to walk up TOWARD something. Once again, this wasn’t perfect but she got the idea. Now, I taught her all these things because she loves to learn ANYTHING. She’s a sponge. She really doesn’t like to play games. She’s very task oriented. I also wasn’t sure I’d ever get her any training on stock. When Bill gave her a familiar command, her reaction was “OH!!! THAT’S what she meant!!” Bill kept her working for about 45 minutes. He laughed at how I had trained her. He said he would never in a million years recommend anyone teach their dog that way but it in our case he said it seemed to work out fine. I wouldn't do it again but Georgia just seemed to get what I was trying to teach her so I did it. When I tried it with Tex his look just said "Lady, can we play Frisbee instead? This is dumb." We had a great day, a little unconventional I suppose, but great all the same. We go back next Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc friend Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 We had a great day, a little unconventional I suppose, but great all the same. That's the important thing - since you're not working the dogs for a living! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted February 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 Exactly. I don't know what the chances are that I'll ever be in a position to have my own sheep or goats or whatever, but for now this will work for us. We're definitely getting a late start. Georgia is three. My goal for her is for her to learn how to do what she was meant to do. And I'll learn with her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted March 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 This is still sort of related to the original topic so I’m posting here. I have one more concern and I’ll leave y’all alone…well, for now. When I took Texi to one of Georgia’s lessons we gave him a try to see if there was ‘anything there’ instinct-wise. It was kind of pitiful. I went in with him and he just sort of wandered around. I pointed out the goats “See goats, Texi! Let’s go!” His expression just said “Nah, I’d really rather not.” Bill and I tried to get him interested for a few more minutes but then we just let him out to go play. This was his third time in about a year. At least this time he didn’t leap out of the pen, jump a fence, run into the truck and into his crate. He’s such an intense dog in every other respect. Is it possible that he finds the goats too intimidating? Some time ago someone mentioned trying him on ducks, thinking that it would be less intimidating for him. But I’m afraid that he’d just eat them. Is it possible that he would find sheep easier to work with? Or is the instinct just not there? If it’s not, that’s ok. He loves to play, I’ll play with him until the end of time if that’s all he wants. But I want to give him every possible chance. I see what Georgia is getting out of her lessons and I want Texi to get that too. A little about Tex: He’s a little over 2 years old. Seems slow to mature. I think he likes being a puppy. He’s a rescue but appears to be all BC (well excepts for the lack of work ethic ) I got him when he was about 4 months old. He’s fairly hard headed but will do just about anything I ask. Kind of pushy, but a pleaser. He’s also pretty sensitive. The first time I really told him no…I mean a strong NO, as in don’t do that, you’re going to get hurt… he stopped what he was doing, walked away and dropped to the floor. I thought he’d had a heart attack. He was just sulking. I ignored him. He loves to play. He is by far much more obedient that Georgia, but nowhere near the problem solver that Georgia is. He’s very smart, but not as much of a free thinker. As far as training he’s had a bit of obedience and some agility and whatever silly things I can teach him at home. It takes him a little while to learn something but once it’s in his little boy head it’s rock solid. Anyway, thoughts, comments & suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Remember that you can take and raise a pup from the absolutely expected best-working-bred litter in the world, and maybe have one or more pups that never turn on, never have any interest in stock, and never have any desire to interact with stock. It happens (granted, it happens less often in good breedings than in breedings that are concerned with characteristics other than stock-working ability). It's kind of like having two children and they both have vastly different interests. Tex isn't worrying that he's missing anything that Georgia is enjoying with stock. Give him something he prefers (like obedience or agility, for example) and let him shine where he has his strengths. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 When I took Texi to one of Georgia’s lessons we gave him a try to see if there was ‘anything there’ instinct-wise. It was kind of pitiful. I went in with him and he just sort of wandered around. I pointed out the goats “See goats, Texi! Let’s go!” His expression just said “Nah, I’d really rather not.” Bill and I tried to get him interested for a few more minutes but then we just let him out to go play. This was his third time in about a year. At least this time he didn’t leap out of the pen, jump a fence, run into the truck and into his crate. He’s such an intense dog in every other respect. Is it possible that he finds the goats too intimidating? Some time ago someone mentioned trying him on ducks, thinking that it would be less intimidating for him. But I’m afraid that he’d just eat them. Is it possible that he would find sheep easier to work with? Or is the instinct just not there? If it’s not, that’s ok. He loves to play, I’ll play with him until the end of time if that’s all he wants. But I want to give him every possible chance. I see what Georgia is getting out of her lessons and I want Texi to get that too. Tex sounds a bit like Alex. The very first time he went in a round pen with sheep, he was somewhat interested, but had a bit of an off-putting experience with the trainer (NOT our current trainer). Fast forward to later on, after I'd been taking lessons with Jack at the new trainer's for a while, we gave Alex another look-see. Sheep? What sheep? Seriously, it was like they weren't there. Now, obviously this goes without saying that I understand it's apparent he doesn't have a whole lot of instinct or talent, but I figured why not try again later? What would it hurt? So, we tried a few months later. This time he at least noticed them, did some chasing, that's about it. Took a long time off, almost a year, I think and tried again. He showed much more interest in the sheep, but still not a lot of promise. At this point, normal people would give up on the dog and I wouldn't blame them. It's either there or not. But a friend of mine also suggested (well, darn near insisted) we try Alex on ducks, for the same reason as was given to you, that they're less intimidating. Like you, I wasn't sure at all how he'd react to them. I figured he'd be like he was with sheep in the beginning..."Ducks? What ducks? I don't see any ducks." BUT, he took right to the ducks! My trainer actually said he's a natural on ducks and *maybe* that would translate to more confidence on sheep. I'm not buying into that last part, but I figure if I'm already paying for a lesson, and Jack can't work the whole hour in our Florida weather, why not let Alex work the ducks and see what happens? As long as we enjoy it and the ducks are being treated well, why not? So, that's my story. Take what you will from it, which I know isn't a whole lot. Tex probably won't ever show the interest or instinct that Georgia does, but if you have the resources to try him on ducks or sheep, why not? Eventually you'll know when to "give up" and as Sue said, just concentrate on what Tex enjoys most. And just 'cause, here's Alex's very first time on ducks. (I know the tail is up, but there was no "wheeee!" going on! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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