Kelliwic Border Collies Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hello all, My little darling, Bran, is 10 months old and quite enthusiastic about working sheep. In the last month or so, she has decided she is SO enthused about work that she barks and carries on in the car when I take Dare out, and barks the entire time (at least, she's barking any time I'm within hearing range). While I am greatly pleased that she is keen, I'm also frustrated with her expression of it and her demand for attention. It drives me absolutely crazy if my dogs bark or whine (any sort of vocalizing) when not working. I hate the demand for attention, and it's also very impolite and unfair to others on site. It will be quite unwelcome at clinics, trials, or on others' property. At this point I am trying to ignore it and hope she matures and grows out of it (though to me, it's like biting on tin foil after drinking WAAAAY too much coffee--very unpleasant to the point of jitteryness). But I'm worried that by ignoring it, it will have become an ingrained habit long before she matures, since barking is self-rewarding. At the same time, I do NOT want to acknowledge in any way the demand for attention, by even giving her a verbal correction. I've seen others at trials or clinics having to go fetch their barking dogs out of their cars and keep them next to them in order to keep them quiet, but I sure as heck do NOT want to reward her demands for attention by giving her what she wants. At the moment with the cold weather, the car is closed when she's waiting, but I can still hear her barking in the car, which means anyone else can too--and of course in just a few months, it will be too warm to leave the car closed. I would like to hear what methods others have used to overcome this. Thanks! This little angel, drive me crazy? How could anyone be upset at this??? (8 weeks old) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Megan, I just refuse to believe anything bad about that little doll-baby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hey, Megan! Do you cover the crate or the car windows, or in some other way make it so she can't see where you go and what you are doing? You've probably already tried that. If you are going to a Jack clinic in the near future, he will probably show you how to deal with it (or do it himself). I remember Bute being barky at his first Jack clinic, when he was only about 8 months old. I think Jack would go up to him (he was tied on the fenceline, like many of the dogs - the others were crated or tied out of sight) and do his Jack-makes-a-correction-with-the-leash-tugs thing. It made an impression on Bute and I seem to recall that I tied him out of sight afterwards, with no barking problems. That probably was no help at all. This is not a problem I have experienced much. Best wishes with the noisy little charmer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelliwic Border Collies Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Megan, I just refuse to believe anything bad about that little doll-baby! And she knows what a charmer she is--I tell her all the time she's lucky she's cute! (else I'd have to trade her in for a new model, LOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelliwic Border Collies Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hey, Megan! Do you cover the crate or the car windows, or in some other way make it so she can't see where you go and what you are doing? Hi Sue, No, I hadn't even thought of that, and that's something that's very easy to try. Hopefully I will remember to do it this week. The first time I remember her doing it was when she HEARD me yelling (unfortunately) at the other dog, so I wouldn't be surprised if she does it even without being able to see the field; she can't really see us working from the parking area. But I'll try it as it can't hurt, and I've got nothing to lose by it! I'm planning to go the JK clinic in Leonardtown, so if the problem is still ongoing by then, I will definitely ask about it. Looking forward to adding more suggestions to a list of ideas. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I'm planning to go the JK clinic in Leonardtown, so if the problem is still ongoing by then, I will definitely ask about it. Looking forward to adding more suggestions to a list of ideas. Thanks! Ha! Bree does it - did it. When Jack heard her he said "not to worry she just wants to work". I've learned to pick my battles with her. I don't tie her or confine her, she just hangs with me now. It's taken time but she would even bark through a silent bark collar (not an e-collar). Is there a kennel where you work that you can put her? One of the trainers runs or something? It's a bitch thing me thinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluzinnias Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hey Megan! Bill likes to behave like an idiot sometimes when he's in the crate in the car and other dogs are working. I purchased a crate cover for the kennel and I have to cover him like a canary when I leave him. I think it is from dogs.com. It's funny because he doesn't carry on too badly if the dog who is working is doing a decent job - if it's a young dog or things aren't going well and the dog and the sheep are all over the place, he's very vocal (almost like he's tattling on them). Michelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 My male Aussie does the same thing. I have been putting him in a crate in the car and keep it running. Usually park far away from others too. Hope he outgrows this eventually. N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Dew does this on occasion. Usually only when I'm working her bro. Sometimes I'm so involved that I don't realize it's her till some time has passed. I find that if I tie her to the fence where she can't get a direct view she is quieter. If not I put her in a crate. I was at a trial and tied her to my car on the other side of the sheep, she couldn't see anything but was close enough to hear everything. I went back to check on her and found her lounging on the hood of my car. She only gets tied to the back now (it's a hatchback). I had her in the car one time when I was farm sitting for friends. I was out doing chores really involved in what I was doing. I hear this toot toot...toot toot....like someone was driving up the drive honking cause they saw me out in the field. I looked and saw no one. Went back to work and it started again. It was then I realized that Dew was in the car hopping up and down on the horn. Thank doG she didn't set the air bag off. Don't know if you can do that when your car is still but it would have been a bummer. Fuuny thing was it had a real distinct pattern, like someone was doing it on purpose. When I'm working close to her and she starts up, I can give her the wolf look (passed generation to generation to the women of my family, works for kids and DH's too) and she lies down sheepishly and quits barking. She's way less inclined to bark if she's had a bit of work herself before tying her up. Not always possible but I do keep that in mind. If I'm at a trial or clinic, I keep her tied at the car. That's usually where she can't see nor really hear, unless it's me whistling to her brother. She seems to already know his whistle commands and it's not been easy for either of us to try to put different ones than her bro. She's got his down pretty pat. BTW that picture is adorable. How could you possibly think it's her??? She's probably just cheering you on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelliwic Border Collies Posted February 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Well, rats. No success. When I swapped out dogs at the lesson this week, I covered Bran's crate and also gave her a stuffed Kong. I thought this would help a lot because she is REALLY food driven. Unfortunately, she barked anyway, and I now have the uncomfortable feeling that leaving the Kong there may have "rewarded" her for barking (ie...she stopped barking when she felt like it and was rewarded for her barkfest by a nice jackpot). To further clarify the scenario, the place where we train weekly is just a couple of fields and a parking area in the woods, so there's no kennel or barn for me to put Bran up and get her really out of the picture. Her view of one field is mainly the gate and the first bit of it, but we are not working in that field this time of year. She can probably see the gate to the other field, but not a whole lot more, which doesn't matter much because with the time of year and the snow on the ground, we are mainly working at the top of the hill, the far end of the field (the top bit is more clear). Right now I work her first, although in good weather I alternate which dog I work first. This will probably be laughable to most folks, but working Bran first right now is due to Dare not having a very good coat. My dogs are not acclimated to being out in the cold for long periods of time as my yard isn't fenced, so since Dare's coat isn't that great and Bran's is nice and thick, it seems to make more sense to me to leave Dare in the warm car as it cools down, then get her out and work her to warm up (rather than work her and get her heated up then putting her back to sit in a cold car). I know I'm probably being foolishly overprotective, but there's my confession as to why I always work Bran first right now. I suspect Bran would bark if I took Dare out first anyway--I think it's the frustration at wanting to work and knowing that the other dog is working and she's not. At a lesson a few weeks ago, I did hook Bran to the fence while I worked Dare, but she was whining almost the whole time, and I couldn't "let it go;" it distracted me too much from what I was trying to concentrate on with Dare. So, letting her see what was going on didn't seem to help. I guess I can hope she'll mature out of it rather than developing it as a habit, but I don't have a lot of confidence that will happen. I'll cover the crate again next week anyway as it can't hurt (uh, unless she sucks the blanket in through the wire of the crate and eats it...which has happened to me with other pups!). Thanks for your input and stories. I love the idea of Bill "tattling," and Dew honking the horn is absolutely hilarious! I will try to change my perspective on the barking to cheering me on and maybe that will at least help me be a little less tense. BTW, other than the barking issue, both dogs worked quite nicely; it was a good lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Just remember that, if a dog is loose in the car, that you take your keys with you. They can not only honk the horn or eat upholstery (we had one, not a Border Collie, dismantle the lining to one door), but can also hit those convenient "lock all doors" buttons and never seem to hit the "unlock all doors" buttons. Where I used to train, we tethered or crated the dogs and mine did not seem to have any problems barking. Celt is particularly quiet. But, where I go now, the "unused" dog is crated in the garage and totally out of sight. Both of my dogs tend to set up a ruckus when I leave them there but generally quiet down pretty quickly - but we just leave them and go, and don't return at all until the dog being worked is done with his turn and it's the other dog's turn. The second dog is not making a sound at this point or it would seem like a reward to bark. I think this barking is more of an anxiety or separation issue as they would not be fussing if they were chained to the fenceline or in my car. Best wishes with your problem. I am sure it is vexing and very distracting. The person I used to travel with to train has an Aussie, and that dog would fuss a great deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelliwic Border Collies Posted February 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Just remember that, if a dog is loose in the car, that you take your keys with you. They can not only honk the horn or eat upholstery (we had one, not a Border Collie, dismantle the lining to one door), but can also hit those convenient "lock all doors" buttons and never seem to hit the "unlock all doors" buttons. I'm not sure whether you meant this as a general caution to other readers of this topic, or whether it was in reply to my post, but in case I was unlear, Bran is crated. Thanks! Your 2nd paragraph made me realize that she is usually quiet as I come back to the car, but I'm not able to tell whether she is simply quiet because she hears me coming back or because she settled on her own well before that. I'll have to "hide" and wait her out a bit when I next go out on my own (when I'm not in a scheduled time slot on someone else's calendar). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Megan - I knew you were crating but I put that in because sometimes other people are reading who might not be crating. As several people had replied with funny stories about loose dogs in cars, I felt it better to be safe than sorry, and put in those cautions. I think it would be a good idea to see if you can figure out if she is barking when you leave. Also, if she does the same thing but somewhere else - in other words, when parked in another (non-sheepy) location like a parking lot or your driveway, when you both just leave her in the crate in the car and/or when you leave her while taking another dog out of the car. And, also to listen and see if the fussing is short-lived or long-term. She's young and I think many dogs get over it with a little maturity and time (and finding out that it gains them nothing). However, I am sure some dogs just never get over mindless or frustrated barking but it sometimes becomes self-perpetuating. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Do not leave dogs who get frustrated about not being the one working loose in the car. No matter what angels they usually are eventually they'll lose it. Solo has never destroyed a single thing of mine except the inside of my old car's driver side door. My Integra was too small to crate dogs in, so he'd been loose in the car while I worked Fly a million times but that one day he took his frustrations out on the inside door panel. The damage was extensive and concentrated around the door handle, so of course when I saw it my first thought was "How smart. He was trying to pull the handle to open the door." I used black duct tape to reassemble the door and it looked almost normal unless you looked really closely. Every now and then Solo would re-destroy the door under similar circumstances and I'd have to tape it back together again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 That is precisely what our dog did to our car, except it was the passenger side door (where I had gotten out). She never damaged anything else, ever, anywhere (well, other than getting into the egg basket a few times - that was very rewarding and my fault for leaving it where she could get it!). Maybe it was because the car was parked in an unfamiliar area and something got her anxieties going. I am afraid we did not do such a great job patching ours up as Melanie did for hers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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