Jump to content
BC Boards

Before You Get Your Puppy


Alaska
 Share

Recommended Posts

I often recommend Before You Get Your Puppy to people thinking about getting a puppy, border collie or otherwise. The author, Ian Dunbar, is all about socialization, both the importance of it and how to do it well. He has made this book available as a free download here. I figured it would be worth a thread to keep the link handy.

 

The companion book, After You Get Your Puppy, is also well worth having, but normally you have to buy it. During January 2009, Dunbar is offering it as a free download too, in honor of "Shelter Dog Prevention Month." This is a great opportunity - I've never seen it free before: LINK

 

People who like these books will probably also find Dog Star Daily to be a great resource.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 246
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I actually bought the entire book and just finished reading it! Most of it is just common sense, but I thought some of it was close to impossible. For instance having your puppy meet 100 people by the time it's 3 months. I don't even know 100 people and of the people I know, a good share of them don't really want to meet my pups (even if I provide food!). Also, he says that an intact male will for sure get in dog fights, but if he gets in 10 fights without injuring another male, that's a good thing. Our intact male was 14 years old when he was pts; he got in one fight with one other intact male BC (over me) and it never happened again...some of this stuff, I just don't get.

Barb S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I love Before and After Getting Your Puppy! Before D came home I actually read through it again and highlighted the important stuff so that it would be easier to find. It was my puppy-raising textbook. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ian Dunbar's books have a lot of great suggestions. My only quibble with them is that it seems to me that he is always saying, "You must do X, and then your dog will do Y" and sometimes in fact your dog does Z, and Z isn't good like Y. He doesn't seem to admit the possibility that his recommendations won't work as proposed or give suggestions as to what you could try if they don't work. No Plan B, in other words.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

I read Before and After You Get your Puppy before we got Dale. The advice was good but all the strict sounding age limits caused me problems.....your puppy must do this or that by 4 months etc. Dale just didn't fit the schedule and I felt I was doing it all wrong. Of course the more I worried and the less confidant I felt the worse things got. So I'd warn people to follow the advice but ignore the times. Like children they all develop at their own pace :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read Before and After You Get your Puppy before we got Dale. The advice was good but all the strict sounding age limits caused me problems.....your puppy must do this or that by 4 months etc. Dale just didn't fit the schedule and I felt I was doing it all wrong. Of course the more I worried and the less confidant I felt the worse things got. So I'd warn people to follow the advice but ignore the times. Like children they all develop at their own pace :rolleyes:

 

I'm curious. Could you elaborate? What kind of problems?

 

I agree that not all dogs develop at the same pace, but there very definitely are critical learning periods for puppies (and children) and time frames are very important. So, I'm curious if the problems that you were having had to do with socializing your puppy, or are you referring to training, or something else?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Thought you might be interested to know there is another useful puppy training book titled How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With. by Rutherford and Neil. You can find it on www.alpinepub.com.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

I have to give Ian Dunbar a lot of credit. His puppy socialization classes at Sirius Puppy Training have made many, many dogs and dog owners better behaved and happier here in the Bay Area. But after seeing him being dragged across the street to the dog park in Berkeley, yelling "Sit! Sit! SIT!" at his Malemute, Omaha Beagle. (Admittedly this was some years ago.) I have to take his "absolutes" with a grain of salt. Even so, he's probably my second favorite trainer, after Patricia McConnel. Nice guy too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
Ian Dunbar's books have a lot of great suggestions. My only quibble with them is that it seems to me that he is always saying, "You must do X, and then your dog will do Y" and sometimes in fact your dog does Z, and Z isn't good like Y. He doesn't seem to admit the possibility that his recommendations won't work as proposed or give suggestions as to what you could try if they don't work. No Plan B, in other words.

 

 

Or, "you must do X or your puppy will be irreparably harmed forever."

 

I just got this book from the library and while I like Dunbar generally, it was a little black-and-white and over-the-top for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most of Dunbar's stuff is extremely 'extreme' but it does work.

 

As for male aggression I agree with him, if the male dog does get into 10 fights and no one is harmed, then he knows how to be a good dog NS Ha bite inhibition and knows good dog language skills. Not that you want your dog to get into fights, just that it happens.

 

The Sit,Sit, Sit, thing is weird, but now that I see where he is coming from it makes sense. Not that I use it, but I'll try to explain as I understand him using it. This is pure "negative reinforcement' used as a correction. Yup, you read that right. The dog knows sit but disobeys. you say "sit" using increasing louder voice (most of his commands are in a conversational voice) and running towards the dog. When the dog obeys, you cease and say "good dog". From the viewpoint of NR it is properly used. The pressure stays on the dog UNTIL he obeys (sound similar to many stock dog people?) then the pressure is released.

 

And I think Omaha was his 'experiment'. He has changed a few things since then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What are the alternative methods to handling a dog who disobeys when you say "sit"?

 

Normally, I repeat the cue in a normal tone of voice, and I might incorporate a hand signal for additional clarity. When the dog sits, I make sure - in whatever way is appropriate at the moment - that the dog knows that he got it right.

 

If this happens more than once or twice within a short period of time, I am going to make sure there is not a physical reason why the dog is not sitting. For instance, if Speedy refuses to sit on cue, I can be pretty sure that the arthritis in his lumbar is acting up. Once we get that taken care of, he's back to sitting when directed to do so. If all is well in that regard, I would take some time to review "sit" in training.

 

That's for a dog that really does know "sit" well enough to generalize to the situation. If that's not the case, I continue to train.

 

I guess one could argue that even doing this is "pressure", but I really do see it simply as being clear.

 

That's one alternative. I've found it effective, and it suits my style much more than running and yelling does. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I repeat the cue in a normal tone of voice, and I might incorporate a hand signal for additional clarity ... I guess one could argue that even doing this is "pressure", but I really do see it simply as being clear.

 

Yeah, I guess I don't see the difference. With the "stockdog" way, the pressure stays, the command repeated "for additional clarity" also.

 

and it suits my style much more than running and yelling does.

 

Does Dunbar recommend running and yelling?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I guess I don't see the difference. With the "stockdog" way, the pressure stays, the command repeated "for additional clarity" also.

 

The difference, I think, is in the use of pressure. It's not that I would repeat the cue until the dog complies and then stop saying it in order to relieve pressure as reinforcement for the correct choice. The cue is information. It communicates to the dog what I want. It is not used as a way to "make" the dog comply (as it seems to be used in the example that Pam Wolf cited above). That has to come from the dog. Once the dog has complied, I might use any number of ways to show the dog that he or she has done what I wanted (a release from the sit to go do what he wants, a food reward, verbal praise if the dog enjoys that, a tossed toy, etc.) The directive doesn't go away, though, as a way to relieve pressure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does Dunbar recommend running and yelling?

 

That's something that I'm wondering, too. It seems to me that Pam Wolf and Geonni were referring to Dunbar above in reference to the "sit sit sit" thing. Perhaps they meant Rutherford, or someone else?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup on the running towards the dog, usually giving the hand signal, and Increasing the volume/tone til the dog complies. If the dog does not obey then you apply training. His matra is Test, Train, Test. If you try something and the dog fails, then you need to train, then retest to see where you are.

 

Nowadays Dunbar is really pushing pet owners to gain off lead control of their dogs and voice control very quickly. I am applying some of this in my 4H classes and they are progressing quite rapidly. I find the repeated sit technique confusing to the kids so use a different verbal marker for wrong behaviour, but same principle.

 

The problem with the repeated sit is too often people fail to teach the dog to obey on the first command so they repeat it w/o results until they bribe the dog or physically correct the dog into the sit. Hence while I understand what he is doing I find it difficult for people to understand. People hear the comand repeated constantly w/o results so think it is OK for the training portion instead of the correction phase

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not that I would repeat the cue until the dog complies and then stop saying it in order to relieve pressure as reinforcement for the correct choice. The cue is information. It communicates to the dog what I want. It is not used as a way to "make" the dog comply (as it seems to be used in the example that Pam Wolf cited above). That has to come from the dog. Once the dog has complied, I might use any number of ways to show the dog that he or she has done what I wanted (a release from the sit to go do what he wants, a food reward, verbal praise if the dog enjoys that, a tossed toy, etc.) The directive doesn't go away, though, as a way to relieve pressure.

 

I don't see the difference. Pressure on. Pressure off. Seems you just "nicey" up what you call it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see the difference. Pressure on. Pressure off. Seems you just "nicey" up what you call it.

 

So, do you consider any directive given to the dog under any circumstances as pressure? And all correct responses by the dog as "pressure off"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, do you consider any directive given to the dog under any circumstances as pressure?

 

I would have to say yes. When I give a dog a command, or you give it a "directive," there is a certain expectation that it gets done, so yes, there would be pressure there. In both cases, if the "directive" is not met, the pressure is increased, either by my moving toward the dog, or you repeating the command or adding hand signals for "clarity."

 

And all correct responses by the dog as "pressure off"?

 

When the dog is right, the pressure is removed either by my body language or by your treat or whatever other method you use to let the dog know he's right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...