I am puzzled; Input requested

[D'Elle]

Recently my room mate, who feeds her cattle dogs the same food I give to Jester and Kit, was told by our vet that the food we are using is not good.

 

I was feeding Jester Chicken Soup dry dog food for years, but switched to Kirkland (Costco) Super Premium Lamb and Rice or Chicken and Rice after reading the ingredients label, which seemed to me to be almost identical to the Chicken Soup, but at a lower price.

 

When we showed the vet the ingredients label she said that there was no way to know "what kind of protein" was in the food. I thought you could tell by the ingredients label. She said Purina would be better because it is "certified" and it lists what kind of protein is in it. I am confused.

 

Below I have copied the label from the Kirkland food. If anyone knows and can tell me what is wrong with this food, I sure would appreciate being told. My dogs are glossy-coated, healthy, very active, and have great muscle tone and stamina. I am in a financial crunch (so who isn't these days) but would rather skimp on my own food than give my dogs food that isn't good enough for them. ( BTW although I see the benefit to feeding raw, I am not in a position to do that)

 

Any feedback is welcome. Thanks.

 

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude protein 26% min

Crude fat 16% min

crude fiber 4% min

moisture 10% max

calcium 1% min

phosphorus 0.8% min

zinc 200mg/kg min

selenium 0.4 mg/kg min

vitamin E 150 IU/kg min

Omega-6 fatty acids 2.5% min

Omega-3 fatty acids 0.4% min

Glucosamine Hydrochloride 300 mg/kg min

Chondroitin Sulfate 100mg/kg min

 

Ingredients

 

Chicken, Chicken meal, whole grain brown rice, cracked pearl barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and Vitamin E) , egg product, beet pulp, potatoes, fish meal, flaxseed, natural flavor, brewers yeast, millet, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, carrots, peas, kelp, apples, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake, dried chickory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, Vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6) , vitamin b-12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

 

The Lamb and Rice has the same label, only it is Lamb and lamb meal, white rice and brown rice, and has 23% crude protein min., and 14% crude fat min.

 

D'Elle, Jester, and Kit

[Shetlander]

I'm not an expert on all the various percentages, but the ingredients sound pretty good to me. I don't understand why your vet said you don't know what kind of protein there is when it is quite clear. It doesn't use the nonspecific word, "meat." There is no gluten mentioned. I've never used this brand but have heard a number of people on these boards speak well of it. OTOH, Purina is generally seen as an inferior product. Maybe your vet is well intentioned but thinking of some other brand. I hope she backs off, though.

[3DogMayhem]

The Kirkland brand is a pretty good food for the price. At least the first two ingredients are meat and a meat meal, as opposed to Purina Dog Chow, where the first two are grain and corn.

 

Rather funny, if the vet can't tell what kind of protein is the Kirkland, seeing how it actually says chicken...what does she think of Purina only listing the word poultry. Seems pretty obvious to me what's in the Kirkland brand Keep in mind I am only looking at the Purina Dog Chow product for ingredients.

 

If you feel your dogs are doing well on it, are happy and healthy, don't worry about what the vet said.

[bsms99]

My vet told me the same thing 2 weeks ago. She said NO store brand dog food was anything but garbage. I asked her if she was familiar with the ingredients in Kirtland's food. "No", she said, "But they make money on using the absolute cheapest stuff available." Nothing quite like admitting you don't know what you are talking about. She's been to Vet school, but I have my MBA...I think she knew as much about business models as she did ingredient lists.

 

It would have been a little more believable if she hadn't also said Purina Dog Chow would be a big step up, and Science Diet even better. I've been known to defend PDC, but it sure isn't a step up from anything but dirt.

 

We also talked about puppy food vs dog food for puppies. While she said both my puppies were in "outstanding health", she didn't understand why the breeder had been feeding Jack big breed food, and said feeding him dog food would limit his growth. I said he's a border collie, not a feeder pig. Things were on a downhill trend at this point.

 

She also said there is no relation between hip dysplasia and feeding in border collies (http://www.bordercollie.org/hd.html ).

 

I pointed out that all of my puppies for the last 30 years had been fed PDC as puppies, and all grew plenty big and active. She said it was luck.

 

So...I'm keeping the Kirtland food and changing the vet.

[M.L.]

So...I'm keeping the Kirtland food and changing the vet.

 

Sounds like a great idea! My dogs are all doing great on the Kirkland food and it is far better in quality than Purina!

 

Do you mind my asking what vet this is since I'm in Tucson. I'd like to make sure I never take the dogs there!

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

There is a recent topic in the Heath section on Kirkland dog food. I think it's fairly reasonable based on comparison to other quality foods and it's ingredients. If I had to cut back on food costs, and could figure out wth I would do with such a huge bag of food, I'd buy it.

My question to the vet would be, Purina is "certified" what and by who? That part confuses me. I also know that when an ingredient list says "poultry", chances are it's not meat and certainly nothing you'd want to eat. Every part of the chicken gets used.

If you're dogs are doing fine and are really healthy, I most certainly would not switch them to purina.

[Lizmo]

I don't even listen to my vet about food anymore. He does very good work, and is the best compared to the 2 other vets in town. But his food knowledge is a huge *0*. When the pups were being boarded this last time, I called to ask if they would feel raw, and the vet tech said they'd do anything for us/our dogs. Great. So I take only enough dog KIBBLE for once in the evenings and raw in the mornings. When we went to pick the dogs up, the vet comes out and tells me he WON'T feed the raw chicken. *insert huge lecture here about raw chicken bones*.

Fine, I was pretty pissed so I didn't find out what they ate since I didn't pack enough food. Well, about 2 hours later I did.

 

Both pups had runny, bright as the sun poo for 2 days! Science Diet

 

I've heard nothing but good about Costco's Kirkland.

[Northof49]

Does your Vet sell dog food at her clinic?

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Does your Vet sell dog food at her clinic?

 

 

This would be my question as I placed a puppy and upon taking him home I warned them he was very sensetive to corn be absolutely sure it wsnt in his food or he'ld have terrible diarrhea. It turned out their vet insisted on placing him on prescription dog food and the main ingredient corn. guess what they were having trouble with???? The family didnt read the bag just paid for it at his insistance. Turns out he had sold them a bag before and again it was full of corn.

[urge to herd]

RE the Kirkland. I've been feeding CA Natural Chicken and Rice for years. Money is a bit tight, so after the thread about Kirkland dog food, I decided to chance it.

 

I've been slowly changing over and we're on our third day. Today they got not quite half of the Kirkland and a little more than half CA N. for breakfast. So far, so good. Sam's got a tummy that's really sensitive to change, but Shonie usually can eat anything with no problems. The poops are a bit larger, but no runny stuff at all.

 

I whipped out the calculator, not counting tax, the CA N. is $1.54/lb and the Kirkland is .84/lb. BTW, the last time I looked, the Kirkland food had wheat, and I wouldn't buy it because Shonie is allergic to wheat. This stuff is new, I guess, no wheat, corn or dairy.

 

If the dogs continue on as well as they are now, we'll make the switch permanent.

 

Ruth

[BustopherJones]

Some time ago, Merck did an analysis of a wide variety of doog foods and graded them. Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables received a very high rating, and a grade of A+. (Purina, which was mentioned in one post in this thread, failed miserably, receiving a F for all 4 varieties included in the list.) It seems to me that you are doing fine by your dog in using Kirkland.

[JohnLloydJones]

BTW, the last time I looked, the Kirkland food had wheat, and I wouldn't buy it because Shonie is allergic to wheat. This stuff is new, I guess, no wheat, corn or dairy.

 

The Kirkland Signature food is pretty good and Senneca ate it readily (and she had been a picky eater up to then). I seem to remember that Costco had a lower quality food branded with the Kirkland name (plain -- no Signature).

[osioda]

The Kirkland aka Diamond dog food I have been feeding this for a very long time, as comparing it to Purina, the difference is Purina uses corn, to up the protein levels and a lot of vets for some reason think they need to feed a high protein but actually this is wrong you don't want the real high protein feed. around 25 to 26 percent is as high of protein that you want to feed,

 

The meat that is used in Kirkland aka Diamond if I remember right the chicken is all from the usa, and the lamb is from the usa and New Zealand I believe this was the country but it is on Diamonds web site.

 

I have no problem with it and the stools are good from the dogs, and they love to eat it.

 

Steve

[D'Elle]

Gosh....thanks to all who replied, and also for the info to check the Health forum. In both places I got lots of good information. I really do not know where my vet was coming from on this. In all other ways that I have been able to determine, she's a good vet, so I wouldn't want to malign her name one bit. Maybe she is just misinformed on dog food?

anyway..................... I am relieved to hear that this is, as I had thought, a decent food to give my dogs, and I will continue giving it to them.

thanks again!

[Mollie&Me]

...but actually this is wrong you don't want the real high protein feed. around 25 to 26 percent is as high of protein that you want to feed

Steve,

To what do you attribute this comment?

 

I am no expert on dog food, but I would have to disagree with this. Obviously, the quality of the protein is most important and should be considered first and foremost. But for a healthy adult dog, I personally would not hesitate to feed a diet with higher than 26% protein, because of a dog's internal process of producing and metabolizing protein.

 

Case in point, I have a 50lb Husky/BC cross who is fed Evo Reduced Fat, which has 52% protein. In spite of his couch-potato-undog ways, he is smokin' hot buff. He also used to suffer from severe IBS and has not had one episode since I switched him to Evo.

 

Isn't raw something like 50% + protein as well?

[powerfulgazelle]

The Kirkland Signature food is pretty good and Senneca ate it readily (and she had been a picky eater up to then). I seem to remember that Costco had a lower quality food branded with the Kirkland name (plain -- no Signature).

 

 

Thank you for this! We switched the guys to Costco/Kirkland food about 6 weeks ago, from Canidae. (Price up, bag size down, formula change, then our pet supply store that carried it went out of business!)

 

The guys were at the vet for check ups this week, and the vet even commented that Kip's coat was looking *shabby* and his skin dry. I had been thinking so too, but, ouch!

 

We were going to go to try to find another supplier for the Canidae...but first I think I'll check to see WHICH Kirkland we'd bought...perhaps we got the "wrong" sort. (The kibble bag is gone...since the kibble must be stored in a Kip-proof container.)

[Sue_Deutscher]

I whipped out the calculator, not counting tax, the CA N. is $1.54/lb and the Kirkland is .84/lb.

Ruth

 

I get whole chickens at Sam's Club for .88 / lb. Also, quite often the grocery store here in Denver, King Soopers, has chicken for .79 / lb. I cut up the chicken and grind bones and all in a meat grinder, then bake it. It's work but cheaper than buying commercial dog food and so much better for them.

 

Here is a quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_food#Manufacturing_process

 

"According to the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO), animal by-products in pet food may include parts obtained from any animals who have died from sickness or disease provided they are rendered in accordance to law. As well, cow brains and spinal cords, not allowed for human consumption under federal regulation 21CFR589.2000 due to the possibility of transmission of BSE, are allowed to be included in pet food intended for non-ruminant animals.[10] In 2003, the AVMA speculated that changes might be made to animal feed regulations to ban materials from “4-D” animals – those who enter the food chain as dead, dying, diseased or disabled."

[Sue R]

...Purina uses corn, to up the protein levels...

Corn really can't be used to "up the protein levels" as it only has a protein content of about 8%. It's a relatively cheap ingredient and primarily supplies energy (carbohydrates). I don't think it is very well digested by dogs at all and so wiht corn, you are paying for something that isn't giving much benefit, IMO.

[juliepoudrier]

I get whole chickens at Sam's Club for .88 / lb. Also, quite often the grocery store here in Denver, King Soopers, has chicken for .79 / lb. I cut up the chicken and grind bones and all in a meat grinder, then bake it. It's work but cheaper than buying commercial dog food and so much better for them.

Sue,

Is chicken all you feed? If so, you may be missing some essential nutrients. Most folks who feed raw-based diets try to offer their dogs a variety of types of meat/bones to help ensure that the dog's nutritional needs (vitamins/minerals) are met. if you're feeding only chicken, I hope you're supplementing your dog's diet with vitamins and other essential nutrients.

 

J.

[Sue_Deutscher]

No worries, Julie, they get hamburger, liver, knuckle bones, rice, etc.

 

thanks, Sue

[bsms99]

I get whole chickens at Sam's Club for .88 / lb. Also, quite often the grocery store here in Denver, King Soopers, has chicken for .79 / lb. I cut up the chicken and grind bones and all in a meat grinder, then bake it. It's work but cheaper than buying commercial dog food and so much better for them.

 

Here is a quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_food#Manufacturing_process

 

"According to the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO), animal by-products in pet food may include parts obtained from any animals who have died from sickness or disease provided they are rendered in accordance to law. As well, cow brains and spinal cords, not allowed for human consumption under federal regulation 21CFR589.2000 due to the possibility of transmission of BSE, are allowed to be included in pet food intended for non-ruminant animals.[10] In 2003, the AVMA speculated that changes might be made to animal feed regulations to ban materials from “4-D” animals – those who enter the food chain as dead, dying, diseased or disabled."

IIRC, people have checked and found that many companies, including Costco (Diamond), don't use that garbage. There are differences between what is allowed for beef vs chicken, and chicken meal vs chicken byproducts.

 

Also, the processing of kibble ought to be enough to kill most nasty stuff, even if you buy the cheap stuff. And while some dogs cannot handle corn, others can. Mine did fine on Purina Dog Chow. I only switched to Kirkland because Dan T Dog likes the taste of Kirkland. Shoot, as a kid, our dogs survived my Mom's completely inadequate diet of hamburger plus leftovers...although survive was the correct word. When the vet talked her into buying dog food, she fed Gainesburgers. YGBSM! The dog thrived, but how any animal could not just survive abuse like that but thrive...

 

Good info here

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Sue, chicken is water-inclusive and kibble is much more dehydrated. Not a great advantage nutritionally, but just to point out you are not realizing the savings you think you are. In other words, you probably feed close to a kilo a day of the chicken, but you wouldn't be feeding anywhere close to that, of the kibble (for most kibbles my dogs would average between 200 and 400 grams a day).

 

You have to compare all feeds on a dry matter basis.

 

Here is a really easy to understand web site describing how to calculate DM for any aspect of feed.

 

The Pet Center DMB calculator

 

I don't know what to make of the OP vet. That's just odd - there's no certification process that guarantees what kind of meat or ANY ingredient is in the product. They might do inside testing and after the melamine fiasco I'm sure a lot of companies do too but quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I'm surprised a vet wouldn't catch that kind of flawed data source.

[Sue_Deutscher]

thank you

Sue

[AliciaB]

I give my pups innova, which is a really good dog food, but can make their poop runny sometimes. It's really expensive, though. I back $60 a bag for like 30 pounds. In my opinion, it's one of the best. I've worked at health food stores, etc.

 

Look at this site: People rate how good the food is for their dogs...

 

Your Dog Food

[trailrider]

This website gives lots of info for dog foods.

 

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/