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We recently adopted a 4 year old spayed female purebred BC rescue. We have 5 acres. She gets lots of play everyday and seems quite happy - except. . .

Issue 1: We have chickens. They are in a 50' x 50' enclosure with a henhouse and 5' fence. No surprise Pandi likes to herd the chickens. Some days she spends most of her time with them. However, she recently started to eat their food - lay crumbles. She gets fed twice - once in the morning and once in the evening, but will refuse food randomly. What she eagerly ate last night she will refuse in the morning. Yet, she will run out to the chicken pen - jump the fence and gorge on two or three pounds of crumbles. This makes her constipated. I have gone the distance on trying to add to the fencing and make the food harder to get too. Pandi is too good of an athlete and she is smarter than I am. So, I am on the path of trying new food for the chickens and mixing in oyster shell and other items that might make it less attractive.

 

Since many of you have decades more experience with BC's I thought I would see if anyone else has had this experience. I am very curious about what you did, if anything, about it. The vet assures me that it is not harmful to Pandi if it is not a main staple of her diet and we take care to make sure the other parts of her diet balance out the vitamins, minerals, etc.

 

Any insight is very appreciated. Thank you.

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The only thing that stops my dogs from eating chicken food- of any sort, pre- or post-digestion- is hotwire. One of the many perks of running my birds in electronet is that it keeps the dogs from getting at the chicken food. When I'm out doing chores, however, the dogs eat anything they can sneak when I'm not looking. Hotwire is a wonderful thing- keeps the chickens in and dogs (and coons, minks, etc) out.

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Welcome! Thank you for giving a forever and loving home to a dog that needs both. You will find a wealth of information and a host of good people who are eager to help on these boards.

 

While your dog is a rescue, "issues" are not synonymous with rescues. They can crop up in any dog, no matter how well bred, and can be due to any combination of genetics and environment. I am sure you know that.

 

You might like to read this recent topic http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=22260. I think that some of the problems this poster was trying to deal with have a lot in common with what you are dealing with, namely, that your dog is doing what she chooses to do because there is a "reward" in it - and that you need to work on obedience, focus on you, and restraining your dog through a combination of obedience and/or physical restraints (leash, long line, fencing that works) making both the chickens and the chicken food "off limits".

 

There are a lot of good training/restraint ideas discussed in that topic that I won't repeat except to say that these are smart dogs and they learn very quickly - you can teach them what you want to teach them, and you are just as often inadvertantly "teaching" them what you don't want to teach them. Your dog has learned that she can go to the chicken pen, get in it, and gorge on the food because you have not managed to teach or restrain her otherwise.

 

Food issues are not strictly confined to rescue or otherwise potentially deprived dogs. I have one that has never lacked since he was born but who is the biggest junk-hound I know. He will readily pass up good food (like yours, he may eat with alacrity one meal, and turn up his nose the next meal, and it's the same, good food) but a rotten dead bird or other disgusting thing will be swallowed in an instant. However, dogs that have been deprived can be very food oriented, protective and gorging when they can - they have learned that there is the quick and the hungry. It doesn't sound to me like that is your dog's problem as she passes up food intermittantly. Another dog we had was a total pig about any spilled stock food - sweet feed, calf pellets, etc. Some dogs just really like some things to eat.

 

Work on developing a solid recall ("come" or "here" command), work on having your dog focus on you (make "you" more rewarding than other things that may distract), use a leash or long line if you can not control your dog before you get that recall solid, teach a solid "leave it" command (this has been one of the most helpful things I have ever learned to do), and use suggested ideas for making your chicken pen dog-proof (electric fence wires on the outside, electronet, covering the pen if possible with chicken wire which is also good at keeping hawks out, or other alternatives). Remember that when it comes to a fence that an animal jumps or scales, if you just heighten it a bit, the animal just learns to jump or climb higher.

 

I am sure others will offer better advice and that your efforts will result in progress with these problems. Best wishes!

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Great reply Sue!

 

Welcome FarminFool...and again, thank you for adopting an adult bc and giving her a great home :rolleyes: . I have nothing to add except to echo that your interaction (aka training & direction) with her, while outside esp, is what will make her into a most excellent dog. Stick around and share your stories with your new girl (name and pics?)

best,

Ailsa

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While your dog is a rescue, "issues" are not synonymous with rescues. They can crop up in any dog, no matter how well bred, and can be due to any combination of genetics and environment. I am sure you know that.

 

I was just thinking that -- especially when I read what this particular "issue" was. All my dogs have issues and they came to me as small puppies. For that matter my dogs' owner has her own issues. :rolleyes: All my dogs are huge chow hounds who would eat all kinds of things I disapprove of, given half a chance. The Sheltie borders on psychotic in her intensity over food. She once leaped up and nipped me on the arm when she realized I wasn't going to give her breakfast and she is by far the most submissive dog I've ever owned. She was so beside herself with dismay that she couldn't even understand why I scolded her. If she thought in words it would have gone something like this: "But I'm really, really, really hungry! And now you're being mean to me!!!!!"

 

I also agree with Sue's suggestions of training a good recall and doing what you can not to let your dog self-reward. That usually involves a combination of training and management (supervision and containment or prevention from getting to the chickens when you can not supervise and intervene). Teaching a Leave It command can work really well and there are even fun ways to teach this sort of self control. Look up "Puppy Zen" here or on the Web and you should find some easy to follow instructions.

 

Good luck and welcome to the Boards!

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All of my dogs, rescues and raised from puppyhood, adore layer feed. The only solution is as Ben says, secure fencing that your chickens can negotiate but that your dog cannot. My chickens are free range, but I have a 10 x 10 dog pen that I have put a roof on and attached a large house too (large enough I can stand up in it). The chickens access the house through a chicken-sized doorway that is too small for the dogs. Their feeder is hung in the house. The gate to the pen is held open such that it can't be opened wider than it is or shut completely. My smallest border collie can squeeze through, but it's generally not a problem because she still can't get into the house where the feed is. And the chicken pen is in the ram paddock, so the dogs don't have access to it in general anyway (but there was a time when it was in the middle of the dog yard and my set up still prevented the dogs from getting to the chicken feed).

 

This was my set up for my OEG bantams. I now also have larger chickens, Rhode Island Reds and Dominiques and I need to come up with a secure area where I can feed them and keep out either the dogs (if the feeder station goes in the yard) or the sheep (if it goes in the sheep pasture). Right now I'm considering dividing a barn stall with 2 x 4 welded wire and a simple gate and then putting the feeder behind it. This would serve to feed the chickens and keep the sheep out. If I change my mind and decide to put something in the yard, then I will make an enclosure with a chicken-sized opening and a top (not only to keep jumping critters out, but to protect feed from the weather and also protect feeding birds from hawks).

 

It sounds to me as if your girl doesn't have an issue at all. She's doing what any normal dog would do (at least any normal dog who can jump fences). Your best bet if your chickens are penned all the time anyway is to put a secure top on the pen (which will also protect them from airborn predators), or build/supply them with a house that has room for the feeder but that is inaccessible to your dog.

 

You're lucky the chicken feed constipates her. When mine manage to get into chicken feed (usually from spillage from chicks out in the moveable chick pens) I get the opposite problem....

 

ETA: I just re-read Ben's post, and I have to agree that my dogs also LOVE post-digested chicken feed (i.e., chicken poo). Yuck. I think the chickens range around so much that the dogs don't easily find lots of poo to eat, but again when I move the chick pens around, if I don't want the dogs eating the poop that's left behind, I have to liberally sprinkle sawdust over everything where the pen was. And even that doesn't always stop them.

 

J.

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The only thing that stops my dogs from eating chicken food- of any sort, pre- or post-digestion- is hotwire. One of the many perks of running my birds in electronet is that it keeps the dogs from getting at the chicken food. When I'm out doing chores, however, the dogs eat anything they can sneak when I'm not looking. Hotwire is a wonderful thing- keeps the chickens in and dogs (and coons, minks, etc) out.

 

 

Nick,

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I was thinking about putting an electrified wire at about the 6 foot level. Since Pandi can easily clear the 5' fence I have seen she will jump and climb the fence with the additional foot added on. I appreciate the input.

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Welcome! Thank you for giving a forever and loving home to a dog that needs both. You will find a wealth of information and a host of good people who are eager to help on these boards.

 

While your dog is a rescue, "issues" are not synonymous with rescues. They can crop up in any dog, no matter how well bred, and can be due to any combination of genetics and environment. I am sure you know that.

 

You might like to read this recent topic http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=22260. I think that some of the problems this poster was trying to deal with have a lot in common with what you are dealing with, namely, that your dog is doing what she chooses to do because there is a "reward" in it - and that you need to work on obedience, focus on you, and restraining your dog through a combination of obedience and/or physical restraints (leash, long line, fencing that works) making both the chickens and the chicken food "off limits".

 

There are a lot of good training/restraint ideas discussed in that topic that I won't repeat except to say that these are smart dogs and they learn very quickly - you can teach them what you want to teach them, and you are just as often inadvertantly "teaching" them what you don't want to teach them. Your dog has learned that she can go to the chicken pen, get in it, and gorge on the food because you have not managed to teach or restrain her otherwise.

 

Food issues are not strictly confined to rescue or otherwise potentially deprived dogs. I have one that has never lacked since he was born but who is the biggest junk-hound I know. He will readily pass up good food (like yours, he may eat with alacrity one meal, and turn up his nose the next meal, and it's the same, good food) but a rotten dead bird or other disgusting thing will be swallowed in an instant. However, dogs that have been deprived can be very food oriented, protective and gorging when they can - they have learned that there is the quick and the hungry. It doesn't sound to me like that is your dog's problem as she passes up food intermittantly. Another dog we had was a total pig about any spilled stock food - sweet feed, calf pellets, etc. Some dogs just really like some things to eat.

 

Work on developing a solid recall ("come" or "here" command), work on having your dog focus on you (make "you" more rewarding than other things that may distract), use a leash or long line if you can not control your dog before you get that recall solid, teach a solid "leave it" command (this has been one of the most helpful things I have ever learned to do), and use suggested ideas for making your chicken pen dog-proof (electric fence wires on the outside, electronet, covering the pen if possible with chicken wire which is also good at keeping hawks out, or other alternatives). Remember that when it comes to a fence that an animal jumps or scales, if you just heighten it a bit, the animal just learns to jump or climb higher.

 

I am sure others will offer better advice and that your efforts will result in progress with these problems. Best wishes!

 

 

Sue R,

 

Thanks for the candid advice. Perhaps I have been to lax with Pandi. I am not sure. She was a bit shell shocked when she came to us. She was hand shy and very tentative and nervous. I have been working with her slowly on commands. She is a bit of a connundrum because even though she is clearly used to being in the house, she is not house trained - or needs re-training. She knows "Sit" and "down" but seems clueless about "come" or "here" or "Stay", etc. I do not think she had ever been on a leash prior to me trying. So, I have been focusing on integrating her into the family. Getting a routine down. Having consistent rules. Providing some structure. She loves fetch - so we do that every day. She loves the chickens - so I include her in the ritual of letting them out in the morning - getting eggs - putting them away in the evening. I have made it her job to come with me and she is very committed to this. I think it is time to add more formal training and make it part of her regular regimen. I have two young girls at home - 7 & 9 who need dog training too. But, I am smitten with Pandi and committed to getting it right for everyone. She is willing to try anything and has a big heart and is very loving. Thanks again.

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I was just thinking that -- especially when I read what this particular "issue" was. All my dogs have issues and they came to me as small puppies. For that matter my dogs' owner has her own issues. :rolleyes: All my dogs are huge chow hounds who would eat all kinds of things I disapprove of, given half a chance. The Sheltie borders on psychotic in her intensity over food. She once leaped up and nipped me on the arm when she realized I wasn't going to give her breakfast and she is by far the most submissive dog I've ever owned. She was so beside herself with dismay that she couldn't even understand why I scolded her. If she thought in words it would have gone something like this: "But I'm really, really, really hungry! And now you're being mean to me!!!!!"

 

I also agree with Sue's suggestions of training a good recall and doing what you can not to let your dog self-reward. That usually involves a combination of training and management (supervision and containment or prevention from getting to the chickens when you can not supervise and intervene). Teaching a Leave It command can work really well and there are even fun ways to teach this sort of self control. Look up "Puppy Zen" here or on the Web and you should find some easy to follow instructions.

 

Good luck and welcome to the Boards!

 

Liz,

 

Thanks for the response. I will start on the Leave It command. I have been slowly working on training because Pandi has been so shy and unsure. I wanted to get a bit of a bond going prior to digging in with training. I recognize that training can create the bond we both need for this to work. However, there are some other issues that have caused me to wait. (I only put forward Issue 1 because I do not want to dump a ton of problems on the people that are supporting each other on this board. Thanks again.

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All of my dogs, rescues and raised from puppyhood, adore layer feed. The only solution is as Ben says, secure fencing that your chickens can negotiate but that your dog cannot. My chickens are free range, but I have a 10 x 10 dog pen that I have put a roof on and attached a large house too (large enough I can stand up in it). The chickens access the house through a chicken-sized doorway that is too small for the dogs. Their feeder is hung in the house. The gate to the pen is held open such that it can't be opened wider than it is or shut completely. My smallest border collie can squeeze through, but it's generally not a problem because she still can't get into the house where the feed is. And the chicken pen is in the ram paddock, so the dogs don't have access to it in general anyway (but there was a time when it was in the middle of the dog yard and my set up still prevented the dogs from getting to the chicken feed).

 

This was my set up for my OEG bantams. I now also have larger chickens, Rhode Island Reds and Dominiques and I need to come up with a secure area where I can feed them and keep out either the dogs (if the feeder station goes in the yard) or the sheep (if it goes in the sheep pasture). Right now I'm considering dividing a barn stall with 2 x 4 welded wire and a simple gate and then putting the feeder behind it. This would serve to feed the chickens and keep the sheep out. If I change my mind and decide to put something in the yard, then I will make an enclosure with a chicken-sized opening and a top (not only to keep jumping critters out, but to protect feed from the weather and also protect feeding birds from hawks).

 

It sounds to me as if your girl doesn't have an issue at all. She's doing what any normal dog would do (at least any normal dog who can jump fences). Your best bet if your chickens are penned all the time anyway is to put a secure top on the pen (which will also protect them from airborn predators), or build/supply them with a house that has room for the feeder but that is inaccessible to your dog.

 

You're lucky the chicken feed constipates her. When mine manage to get into chicken feed (usually from spillage from chicks out in the moveable chick pens) I get the opposite problem....

 

ETA: I just re-read Ben's post, and I have to agree that my dogs also LOVE post-digested chicken feed (i.e., chicken poo). Yuck. I think the chickens range around so much that the dogs don't easily find lots of poo to eat, but again when I move the chick pens around, if I don't want the dogs eating the poop that's left behind, I have to liberally sprinkle sawdust over everything where the pen was. And even that doesn't always stop them.

 

J.

 

Julie,

 

Nice to have company on this. I have owned quite a few dogs in my day and worked with PAWS in animal rescue, rehab and foster homing for more than a decade. I have never had one that ate chicken feed. Just lucky I guess. I have my girls -- 4 aracunas and 3 white cochins in a 50' x 50' pen, formerly for foaling. They have a nice chicken coop to go into. The back door is 12"H x 10"W and Pandi can get in it. I originally - pre Pandi - had it at 8" X 8" but the chickens would not use it. So, I made it bigger. How big is your chicken coop door?

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Great reply Sue!

 

Welcome FarminFool...and again, thank you for adopting an adult bc and giving her a great home :rolleyes: . I have nothing to add except to echo that your interaction (aka training & direction) with her, while outside esp, is what will make her into a most excellent dog. Stick around and share your stories with your new girl (name and pics?)

best,

Ailsa

 

Alisa,

 

You know, I would have to say that Pandi is already a most excellent dog. It is really just getting her to fit into my world that is the issue. I will download a picture of Pandi. She is a real cutie-pie.

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How big is your chicken coop door?

Tiny--a cat could go through, and perhaps a very small dog, but my 28-pound border collie can't get through. The problem is that it works fine for the game bantams, which are pigeon-sized, but not for larger chickens. That's why I need to come up with a separate solution for the larger chickens, who right now perch in one of the barn stalls (the same one used by the rams). I would prefer to set up a feeder for them in the stall, but I still have to make sure it's secure so the sheep can't get to it, because I don't need sheep eating animal protein. One thing I didn't mention, though, is that the door to the chicken house opens into the pen, so my dogs would first have to get into the pen and from there into the house. Perhaps if you reconfigured your pen and house you could put the chicken access door inside the pen where Pandi can't get to it. From your description of the set up, though, I'm guessing that Ben's hot wire suggestion will be your best solution.

 

J.

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I only put forward Issue 1 because I do not want to dump a ton of problems on the people that are supporting each other on this board. Thanks again.

 

You are very astute :D and very considerate for saying so. But, that being said, bring it on! :rolleyes:

I can't wait to see pics of your most excellent dog Pandi,

Ailsa

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An off-set hotwire at ground level would be better. A jumping dog that hits hotwire will not complete the circuit, if they're totally airborne and not grounded on anything. There areways around this (my older mare figured out how to blast through the fence with all four feet off the ground...), but an off-set wire where the dog will hit it at ground level should work.

 

There is a caveat to this: While my BC has gone through hot fences with barely a blink, my mutt is TERRORIZED by hotwire. She will NOT go down an aisleway next to the lambing paddock here because she got zapped there three years ago. If she gets zapped, she runs with no regard to anything. So know your dog- stay away from hotwire if you think it could be too traumatic.

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An off-set hotwire at ground level would be better. A jumping dog that hits hotwire will not complete the circuit, if they're totally airborne and not grounded on anything. There areways around this (my older mare figured out how to blast through the fence with all four feet off the ground...), but an off-set wire where the dog will hit it at ground level should work.

 

There is a caveat to this: While my BC has gone through hot fences with barely a blink, my mutt is TERRORIZED by hotwire. She will NOT go down an aisleway next to the lambing paddock here because she got zapped there three years ago. If she gets zapped, she runs with no regard to anything. So know your dog- stay away from hotwire if you think it could be too traumatic.

 

 

Nick,

 

You know, I have to say I had not thought about how she would react to getting zapped. I was really more focused on problem solving. Pandi has exhibited a very bizarre fear of airplanes and bolts whenever she sees one in the sky or even a contrail. She also bolts at any booming sound - whether a far off backfire or a lowrider car playing music with the bass turned way way up. She is also very freaked out at the beach for reasons I can not figure out. Which is very sad since I love taking dogs to the beach. I do not want to add another source of trauma. Thanks for sharing what happened with your mutt. I think it likely that Pandi will have a similar reaction.

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My mention of a hot wire at the top of the fence was based on the idea that the fence was too high to jump but that the dog was climbing it, and that the fence itself would complete the circuit.

 

Your comment about how some dogs react to electric fence was very good. My Celt hit a fence wire as a youngster and did just as you say, ran (back to the house) without being able to "think" and "hear" me. However, he now knows what electric fence wires are and what they "do" (so do my other dogs) and, should one of them brush one, they quickly calm down and are fine (within just a few feet of the fence).

 

Some dogs will never be able to cope with an electric fence and others are not at all as distressed by it once they have been exposed to it a time or two. I would recommend careful training, on a long line, perhaps.

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