Introduction & Input/Suggestions Requested

[catrel]

Hello all,

I am a new member to the board, been reading a bit before introducing myself and Shiloh. Shiloh's mother is a red merle Australian Shepherd, her sire a black tri Aussie/BC cross. I got Shiloh from the friend who owned her mother. From the time I got her at 6 weeks (not my choice, but had to get her then or lose her), she has not been like either parent, altho she definitely favors the BC part vs the Aussie part.

 

When I got Shiloh I lived in an apt upstairs and she did great. She went everywhere w/ me unless it was too cold for her to sleep in the truck in her crate. When she was bout 6 months old we moved to a trailer with a yard. The first week there she was attacked in our yard, by the GSD kitty corner from us, while on her cable. Over the next 16 months she was attacked by this GSD a 2nd time, as well as the ACD belonging to the father of the gal across from me (HE lived on property behind the trailer park) again while she was on her cable in our yard.

 

It reached the point I would not have her outside while home any more than absolutely necessary because she began hitting the end of her cable when she saw kids, the 2 dogs that attacked her, and finally even the vehicles they rode in. Consequently I took her out hiking a lot away from the trailer park.

 

I watched her reactions to various people and puzzled bout it until after we moved out I found out that 2 persons who had access to the trailer through management reasons, were entering the trailer while I was gone - and tormenting her.

 

She turned 3 the end of October. We moved from that park to a house on 9 acres. She was doing a lot better. She loves kids and gets very excited when they come. We had bbq's out here w/ trail riding w/ friends and she did great. Then the friend I got her from sold her property & house and was going back east awhile. She had got a male Aussie the same time I got Shiloh from her that would not do well in the city so she asked if I would take him. Since I was looking for a companion for Shiloh, and this dog is a VERY nice one, I agreed. I picked up this dog the day before Thanksgiving. Of course Shiloh went w/ me to pick him up. Two gals walked by the truck w/ no reaction from Shiloh. My friend's son walked by and Shiloh went ballistic. Build wise he looks a lot like one of the guys who was in/out of the trailer. She nearly went thru the windows of the truck trying to get her son. I was not able to bring her out of it that time. I talked w/ a trainer who suggested tranquilizing her, w/ vet's approval of course. I talked w/ vet, who then saw a minor reaction from Shiloh when I took her to the office for accurate weight. She recommended medication but not tranquilizing her. Ultimately she put her on a tricycylic antidepressant. It is hoped to work her thru these aggression fears on the medication. This Sat she starts obedience classes for some strong socialization.

 

Now things I have noticed and would also appreciate input on are,

 

(1) Since the time I got Shiloh she's had what I can best describe as "strange eyes". They don't dilate normally. I've said for 2+ years that I don't think she can see well. I've called every vet in the surrounding area and all said they did not have the equipment to check her eyes. I've watched her track a bird across the sky or a squirrel across the top of the trailer, but not see a bird walking on the ground a couple feet from her.

 

(2) If she's restrained, esp on her cable, when someone approaches, she won't even attempt to bring herself down, she just rages. But if she's NOT restrained, if I have her off her cable, she runs out of reach, but not far, then will stop, look and listen. Once she recognizes the person, she's all over them.

 

I live in a rural area, w/ no specialty type vets near. I'm surprised that they are even doing the obedience classes, but a member of the kennel club I grew up in lives close by and conducts basic obedience and agility classes through the YMCA and I have her starting the basic obedience courses this Saturday. This is mostly for socialization as well as working on her obedience but when it is her and I, she has attention riveted on me and obeys all signals w/o NO problem. But add another person to the mixture, let her get set off, and even I can't get her attention off the person to me - IF she's restrained. Over the summer during the bbq's the kids played w/ her and I'd work her a bit and she'd respond fine.

 

Suggestions, ideas, input, basically anything would be appreciated. I included the part bout her eyes as I do believe it's connected to her reactive behavior, as well as the tormenting the 2 did.

 

The end of July I was nearly killed when bucked off my horse and because did not fully follow dr's orders I am now paying for it w/ a relapse in mid November, and consequently, unable to do the physical work I was doing, am unemployed. So some financial things are not possible at this time. She is not spayed yet, but one of the things that will be done (esp w/ an intact male Aussie here now) is her being spayed. I wonder if spaying will help calm her down at all?

 

Thank you,

[afrancis]

Welcome to the Boards! You have certainly come to the right place for advice and information -- too bad you didn't come several years ago!

 

Sounds like you have *many* issues with which to contend, not least of which your unemployment. I hope you are able to improve enough physically that you can get working again. In this case, the first thing I would do is spay and neuter your dogs. This is SO important, I cannot over-emphasize it! The silver lining is that while you're unemployed, you can concentrate all your efforts in your dogs

 

I would take firm control of both dogs by doing the following things:

 

(i) your enrollment in obedience class is great. Is this for just Shiloh or for the new male as well? If I were in your shoes, I would use all the exercises I learn at the class with Shiloh when I got home with BOTH dogs separately, rather than bring two dogs (if that's even allowed) to class;

 

(ii) I would reconsider putting either/both dogs out on cables, unless you're right there with them -- even then, I would prefer to keep them on long leads connected to me/my waist. This can be very useful training time, esp with stays, heels and leave its;

 

(iii) I would ratchet up the socialization for both dogs -- bring them with you everywhere you go, to meet all people. Keep treats in your pockets and pass them out to people for them to give your dogs. Even though you are in a rural area, there must be towns nearby where you go to get food/supplies, etc. where they can meet people. This is esp important with your Shiloh and her early experience being tormented. I don't blame her feeling like she must defend herself against anyone she does not know. This kind of behaviour modification will probably be a long road -- and she may always be reticient toward strangers but her ferocious reactions can be tamed.

 

Do you have a library nearby or do you think the trainer could loan you some books? If so, look for Ian Dunbar's books, or Patricia McConnell or Leslie McDevitt (Control Unleashed) or Karen Pryor (Don't Shoot the Dog). These are all great positive reinforcement authors.

 

In regards the eye issue, I don't have anything for you. Perhaps others could give some advice there. It may indeed be a genetic problem (esp since she's part merle - blue eyes?) and if significant, as you fear, may certainly be exascerbating her fear issues.

Good luck and keep us informed,

Ailsa

[JMack]

Your dog's behavior when faced with a threat--to lunge when on the cable & run when off it--makes perfect sense to me. A fearful dog will warn off the threat when she has no choice & (better) run from it when she can. I agree with the previous poster--I would not put her on the cable at all if possible. And I would do everything you can to make her feel safe, to NOT push her past her threshold.

 

There are excellent protocols for desensitizing dogs to threats. My own BC is reactive. She started out (as a 15-month old rescue who'd been on a chain) as an extremely fearful dog who ran and hid from everyone, especially men. With a little confidence, she "progressed" to occasional aggression, with dogs and humans, but is also much friendlier and happier. An invaluable resource for me throughout this now 3-year process has been a yahoo group, shy-k9s. On that group are trainers who specialize in reactive dog issues (as well as many owners who share their own experiences). There are also many files, articles, resources. Here is their webpage (with instructions about subscribing):

 

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/shy-k9s/

 

I strongly recommend you post your query there as well. I think you'll get some excellent advice. (I with I'd known about it when I first got my shy dog. It would've saved me from many mistakes & some bad advice, e.g., many vets--and some trainers--will tell you not to comfort/reassure a frightened dog. Please just ignore this advice if you get it.)

 

Good luck with it.

[RuthBelle]

*****************I watched her reactions to various people and puzzled bout it until after we moved out I found out that 2 persons who had access to the trailer through management reasons, were entering the trailer while I was gone - and tormenting her.

****************

 

 

Say what!!!!!!! Other folks here will give you better dog training advice than I can give, but when it comes to mobile home court advice, I can come up with a thing or two. Granted you've already moved out, but if I found out someone was coming into my mobile home (be it rented or owned by me in a park) without giving me the proper pre-notification as required by state statute----THERE WOULD BE HELL TO PAY!!!! Especially if I found out they were messing with my property or animals.

 

Did you report these people to the court management, preferably with a copy of your state statutes regarding mobile home court rules, regulations (and especially anything regarding prenotification before entering a home---unless it's an absolute emergency) sent to management as a "reminder"????? How scary to know some bozos were messing with your dog-----even scarier is what would have happened if they had gotten bitten in the process. Oh geez!

 

That 9 acres must be pure heaven for you!!!

[catrel]

Welcome to the Boards! You have certainly come to the right place for advice and information -- too bad you didn't come several years ago!

 

I wish I had known bout this board several years ago! I've been searching for information and help with her for well over a year and just recently found this board through dogster.

 

Sounds like you have *many* issues with which to contend, not least of which your unemployment. I hope you are able to improve enough physically that you can get working again. In this case, the first thing I would do is spay and neuter your dogs. This is SO important, I cannot over-emphasize it! The silver lining is that while you're unemployed, you can concentrate all your efforts in your dogs

 

Shiloh was approved for spaying thru the low income assistance program today. I feel is more important at the current time to concentrate on her being spayed first, and then Red Dog neutered. When I had the kennel I had 25+ dogs in my care, never had an accidental breeding. I told a friend tho, now having said that, NOW would be the time it would happen. But Shiloh is NOT outside w/o me present and never outside when in season w/o me right there w/ her.

 

I would take firm control of both dogs by doing the following things:

 

(i) your enrollment in obedience class is great. Is this for just Shiloh or for the new male as well? If I were in your shoes, I would use all the exercises I learn at the class with Shiloh when I got home with BOTH dogs separately, rather than bring two dogs (if that's even allowed) to class;

 

Shiloh is the only one registered for the class but I intend to apply whatever new I learn towards the new male as well. I used to participate in juniors, breed and obedience w/ my shelties but know that new methods have been found since then. But then Shiloh is nothing like any of my shelties ever were!

 

(ii) I would reconsider putting either/both dogs out on cables, unless you're right there with them -- even then, I would prefer to keep them on long leads connected to me/my waist. This can be very useful training time, esp with stays, heels and leave its;

 

Shiloh is never outside unless I am right here. If I'm not home she's either in the house or in the truck w/ me. The new male was not collar or leash broke when I got him, and had ridden in a vehicle only to go to his old home as a young pup, and then in my truck when I brought him home. He rides now w/ me on an almost daily basis and LOVES to go.

 

(iii) I would ratchet up the socialization for both dogs -- bring them with you everywhere you go, to meet all people. Keep treats in your pockets and pass them out to people for them to give your dogs. Even though you are in a rural area, there must be towns nearby where you go to get food/supplies, etc. where they can meet people. This is esp important with your Shiloh and her early experience being tormented. I don't blame her feeling like she must defend herself against anyone she does not know. This kind of behaviour modification will probably be a long road -- and she may always be reticient toward strangers but her ferocious reactions can be tamed.

 

Until the time we moved into that trailer Shiloh went everywhere with me. She went to work w/ me, slept in her crate in the truck, until it got too cold. When it went below zero or above 60 she had to stay home as was too cold or too warm for her to stay in the truck. Otherwise she went with me and I used lunch hours to spend time w/ her. As she got worse in her reactiveness, I quit taking her. The med the vet put her on does have her slowing down so I'm back to taking her w/ me again. I don't mind her being "reticient" towards strangers, it's the raging that causes problems because if someone saw her who did not know her, would think she was vicious, and she's not. My friends' mom, not knowing her, was afraid of her but once you DO know her and she you, she will kiss ya to death.

 

Do you have a library nearby or do you think the trainer could loan you some books? If so, look for Ian Dunbar's books, or Patricia McConnell or Leslie McDevitt (Control Unleashed) or Karen Pryor (Don't Shoot the Dog). These are all great positive reinforcement authors.

 

Have already done this. My library has brought most these in on interlibrary loan. It's just harder to do alone. Plus her problems are not when we are alone as I have her undivided attention when it's just her and I - the problems arise when others are in the picture. I need her out and about, around others, who can tell me what to do to help the situation as it is happening (ie the trainer as I've never dealt w/ a dog like this before). This is where the class comes in. Once I get her in the class and starting to see that not every person will hurt her, I intend to extend that to walking thru town (we live 6 or so miles out of town and it's a small town so can walk one end to the other in bout 15 mins max). Her class starts this Saturday morning.

 

In regards the eye issue, I don't have anything for you. Perhaps others could give some advice there. It may indeed be a genetic problem (esp since she's part merle - blue eyes?) and if significant, as you fear, may certainly be exascerbating her fear issues.

 

When I had my shelties I had blue merle and bi blues (merle) so dealt w/ the merle eye often. This is not a merle eye as far as I know it. Unless the aussie's or BC's have different merle eyes than shelties or collies do? I don't know the genetics of the aussies or bc's like did the shelties. The vet who gave her her rabies shot in 07 listed her as a dilute tri, but she has that reddish cast to her coat and has since tiny pup. I wonder if she might be a dilute RED tri???

 

At any rate I have been contacting the only local kennel club (one I grew up in!), they have no eye clinic scheduled until possibly Oct 09 shows and she wasn't sure if one would be held then either. But she did say that a vet clinic in the northern hills does have an eye specialist in every couple months so I'm checking into that. And it happens that that clinic is one of those participating in the spay/neuter program. I have a friend who was approved in the program to neuter her cattle dog x and we are gonna try to get them booked the same day so we can go up together. It was this young male cattle dog cross that helped show Shiloh that not every dog bigger than her was out to attack her too!

 

Good luck and keep us informed,

Ailsa

[catrel]

Hi,

I was on that list for awhile, can't remember how long. I DID post about her and did not receive much in put at all. I went off the list not too long ago simply because the list volume was too high, in conjunction w/ the other lists am on, including dog, horse, and work related.

 

An invaluable resource for me throughout this now 3-year process has been a yahoo group, shy-k9s. On that group are trainers who specialize in reactive dog issues (as well as many owners who share their own experiences). There are also many files, articles, resources. Here is their webpage (with instructions about subscribing):

 

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/shy-k9s/

 

I strongly recommend you post your query there as well. I think you'll get some excellent advice. (I with I'd known about it when I first got my shy dog. It would've saved me from many mistakes & some bad advice, e.g., many vets--and some trainers--will tell you not to comfort/reassure a frightened dog. Please just ignore this advice if you get it.)

 

Good luck with it.

[catrel]

Say what!!!!!!! Other folks here will give you better dog training advice than I can give, but when it comes to mobile home court advice, I can come up with a thing or two. Granted you've already moved out, but if I found out someone was coming into my mobile home (be it rented or owned by me in a park) without giving me the proper pre-notification as required by state statute----THERE WOULD BE HELL TO PAY!!!! Especially if I found out they were messing with my property or animals.

 

Did you report these people to the court management, preferably with a copy of your state statutes regarding mobile home court rules, regulations (and especially anything regarding prenotification before entering a home---unless it's an absolute emergency) sent to management as a "reminder"????? How scary to know some bozos were messing with your dog-----even scarier is what would have happened if they had gotten bitten in the process. Oh geez!

 

The problem here is one of them WAS the manager of the trailer court! The other one was his maintenance guy. There was NO reason for either to be in my trailer as I had no maintenance problems being worked on. I couldn't PROVE it. I knew someone had been in there the first time because things had been moved to different spots - not good enough proof. The last time I found out when I was in the spare room going thru boxes and a butcher knife that was laying on top of a box came flying down, hit me barely missing my eye. Now what they had been doing w/ a butcher knife up there I don't know ... opening a box for whatever reason???

 

the manager had made a comment shortly after I moved in about complaints on my dog barking. I asked if the complaining person had super hearing. Huh? The dog was in my truck 21 miles away! Did they have super hearing to hear her that far? He then said "so she's only out if you're home?" Yes ... at the time I had no reason to suspect he was not above board ...

 

Now had they got bitten in the process I seriously doubt they would have come forward as she was crated in the house so I would have likely had some legal recourse against them then. (1) They had NO reason to be IN the house in my absence, (2) they had NO reason to be near the dog in her crate, esp close enough to be bitten!

 

And also I've read articles in the local newspaper about this trailer park manager since then that make me throw up. They play him up like some saint or something. Not once have they mentioned his record of going in/out of the trailers he managed (found out he went in/out of others he managed too), of his lewd sexual based comments towards women, etc etc etc.

 

That 9 acres must be pure heaven for you!!!

 

It IS. And Shiloh loves it too. She can run, stretch her legs out, but only when I'm home and out w/ her. The new male I don't let run as he took off, went visitin and the landlady's family, not knowing he was mine, called animal control, and I had to bail him out of doggie jail. The AC lady told me now she knows whose he is and to put one of those nylon type collars on him w/ my name/phone number written on it in marker so that if he "vanished again" as she called it, they'd call ME instead of HER. He wants to herd the horses tho, as does Shiloh, and I don't want that. I got bucked off because Shiloh used to try herding that mare so when we went out to a friends to ride, their dogs came down, one went under her, spooked her and I flew. Ouch.

[catrel]

Well Shiloh's first obedience class was today and went VERY well! I knew the instructor from when I was a kid in the Rapid City KC but it has been MANY years since had any contact w/ any of the KC members. Anyhow Shiloh really liked her. From the time we came thru the doors tho she was growling at every person and dog she saw, and there were a lot of them for her first intro. The rally class was before ours. But I did learn some things to do with her and the instructor believes her aggression problems can be worked thru ok, that she would do good in rally and will be quick to train. She is - she learns fast, always has, and wants to learn and please. She's just too concentrated on everyone else instead of me. BUT as she settled down I was able to get her attention back to ME more often. I'll start taking her to town w/ me again, walking thru town working with her on her exercises. It was quite an encouraging morning!

[afrancis]

Really good news. Congrats! Keep it up.

And let us know how she progresses, esp. with walks through town. It will take a while and you may not notice the change right away, but everytime you expose her to different (which will no longer be different after a while) and wonderful things -- remember to bring treats and get other people to give them to her -- a more positive response toward people and other dogs will take hold over time.

Ailsa