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Help strengthing the lift


Bill Orr
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If you have successfully trained an open dog, perhaps you have suggestions on this question....

 

I was setting sheep for a few runs at a local trial and really enjoyed watching the young open dogs (3-4 year olds) lift sheep. The sheep were being spotted on alfalfa about 500 yards from the post on a cold clear day. The dogs my question is about all had good outruns and approaches. Some of them however had difficulty lifting the sheep.

 

Now I know that some of these sheep are easier to lift than others. Several dogs, young or not had some trouble lifting. But one particular young dog tried and tried. I was close enough to watch him try to manuever and vary the pressure on the stubborn sheep with no good result. You could tell that he heard the handler and wanted to solve the problem.

 

This is NOT a fearful dog. Good breeding and lots of work. Shortly afterwards I saw the same young dog calmly, on command go into a packed trailer of sheep multiple times and get them out in good order.

 

MY QUESTION: (Also posted on ask the expert.) What can we do in training to overcome this type of block for a dog? Most references in training books is on how to slow down the lift. What can you do to help a talented but sensitive dog on the top end with hard to lift sheep?

 

Thanks very much,

Bill Orr

 

Hi Bill. I've been following this thread for a while now and thought I would give my two bits worth. When I start training a young dog to lift, which is right away the first day he's on the field, I let him figure it out. I don't start a young dog until he has a good stop and a recall so that I have some semblance of control when we go to the small field. If he leaves some behind he gets a "look" and is not allowed to bring the others until he picks up the straglers. If he's a really strong pushy dog I, of course, will have to control the lift somewhat but I don't stop him or get on his case hard if he's having a little fun up there. I'll just move around at the bottom so that he has to flank to stay on balance and that will usually slow him down. If he's a bit of a cautious pup, I'll leave him alone at the top and really encourage him to get in and take control. No commands, just shussing and atta boys. Don't really care if he bites or not as long as it's not viscious. If he gets thinking that he's a real power house and starts to get a little pushy that's good. It's a lot easier to calm it down a bit than put something in you've taken out. I try to bring the pup along with as many types of sheep I can get on once he's got a pretty good handle on him and my job as a trainer is to bring him to his genetic potential level of confidence. We sometimes, in the interest of gaining a nice smooth lift, which is beautiful to watch, forget that all sheep and conditions are not the same. A dog that has been left to figure out what kind of sheep he's working will eventually be able to lift pretty well any type of sheep as he has been taught throughout his life that the sheep MUST MOVE to get them to the boss. The dog in question, as you say, is not a fearful dog but he obviously did not "know" what to do when faced with sheep that wouldn't move. If he had been brought along to "know" that he had to move them no matter what, he quite possibly, could have done that. We sometimes tend to take some of the 'PRESENCE" out of our dogs in order to get this nice smooth lift. I remember a statement that Ralph Pulfer said a few years back. I think it was on one of the Finals tapes. I quote: "Don't ever take anything out of a dog that you might need down the road". I have been trying to adhere to that for a lot of years. Sometimes I'm successful and sometimes I really screw up but not for lack of trying. Usually from lack of knowledge and sometimes patience. Leave your dog to work and figure things out and you be the guide. Be in control and not controlling and I think you'll find that if God gave you a good one he'll stay a good one. Bob Stephens

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Well said, Bob. I think this is exactly what I was trying to say earlier, but you have said it much more eloquently. And thanks for bringing this back to a discussion worthy of participating in. :rolleyes:

 

A

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I scribed for the trial that Bill Orr set sheep for...and I looked at Mike Hubbard, the judge, and told him it was darn EASY to run a dog from inside the cab of his truck :rolleyes: That would probably be called "back seat handling". I am a great back seat driver...just ask my two teen-aged sons!

 

Back to the original question "how does one help strengthen a dog at the lift?"

 

Bob, I think it is interesting how you allow your young dogs to figure out the lift. If a dog learns to lift inappropriately, and was an otherwise talented dog, would you sell it on....or would you try to help the dog see how to lift in an appropriate manor? As you mentioned, some dogs are a little apprehensive, some dogs just want to blow right through...and some dogs figure out a good lift when left to their own devise. What about the dog that "figured it out"...getting the job done...but not in a good and proper fashion.....how can you go back and help dogs learn they can lift in any given situation?? Is this something that could be "re-worked"? If it can be re-worked.....how?

 

Thanks!

 

Lora

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I scribed for the trial that Bill Orr set sheep for...and I looked at Mike Hubbard, the judge, and told him it was darn EASY to run a dog from inside the cab of his truck :rolleyes: That would probably be called "back seat handling". I am a great back seat driver...just ask my two teen-aged sons!

 

Back to the original question "how does one help strengthen a dog at the lift?"

 

Bob, I think it is interesting how you allow your young dogs to figure out the lift. If a dog learns to lift inappropriately, and was an otherwise talented dog, would you sell it on....or would you try to help the dog see how to lift in an appropriate manor? As you mentioned, some dogs are a little apprehensive, some dogs just want to blow right through...and some dogs figure out a good lift when left to their own devise. What about the dog that "figured it out"...getting the job done...but not in a good and proper fashion.....how can you go back and help dogs learn they can lift in any given situation?? Is this something that could be "re-worked"? If it can be re-worked.....how?

 

Thanks!

 

Lora

 

Hi Lora. I don't ususally sell dogs on just because they have one small problem. As a matter of fact I don't usually sell dogs on period. I don't learn much by doing that. The lift, in my opinion, is not a hard problem to deal with. It is usually quite easily remedied by either encouragement or control. This kind of problem can, in my opinion, pretty well always be remedied. This is not to say that all dogs can lift all sheep. After all I don't think that with all the training in the world that I could beat Muhammed Ali in a boxing match. We do have our genetic limits.

 

Our job as trainers is to figure out the best way to train certain qualities into our dogs in a manner that will stay with them. We start training the lift the first day we take our dogs to sheep. In my opinion the dog must be under control (stop and recall) when we go to sheep. I know lots of other folks who don't feel they need this but when you go to sheep with a strong dog you need control. When the dog is sent to gather, which is his God given gift, we watch the way he does it and learn something about the dog. That first few times on sheep will determine the method of training you are going to use. If he has a lot of eye and you see him stalling and "eyeing" on the way out you know you are going to have to use a lot of encouragement and keep the dog moving to loosen him up. These are all going to be general statements as there is not enough time to get into specifics answering this question. If he comes on strong and wants to bust everything at the top or goes straight in then we are going to teach him that we are in control and show him how we want it done. You get between the sheep and him at a reasonable distance with you closer to the sheep. Shuss him either way and push him out.( I guarantee you that this type of dog will need pushing out) When he starts coming to balance start backing up so the sheep have a place to go and the dog can lift them with very little pressure. If he is coming in too fast then check him without lying him down. (this is done by giving him the lie down command but before he actually stops walk him in on the sheep) Don't worry too much about any flanks, as a matter of fact, don't give him any flanks. Just move around at the bottom to make him stay to pressure and balance the sheep to you. Use your lie down for pace on the fetch. You will find that most strong dogs will get into what I call the "dynamo fetch". Once they get the sheep moving they want them to move faster and faster all the time. This is where you must be vigilant and control the dog's pace. Not usually at the lift but just after it. Don't get too excited about slowing the dog too much and let him keep pushing even if a little too fast. Remember, you want the dog to win and think he can do anything but still listen. You are training, not trialling. It isn't just about straight lines and tight turns. You are also building character into the dog and confidence. This is what is going to make the difference on the lift between the dog that has not experienced all types of sheep and conditions and the one that has the confidence to "feel the fear and do it anyway". On the other side if your dog tends to be a little cautious or has a lot of eye it's your job to bring him to his genetic confidence level. Recognize the fact that there are going to be times during his training that he is not going to be able to move his sheep. That's where you come in. With this type of dog you need to do a lot of fence and corner work with the dog bringing sheep out of the corner and off the fence. Make sure that the sheep always have a place to go when doing this. You don't want to put the dog in a position that the sheep can't move and he has an immovable object in front of him. This will not build confidence. Send him behind the sheep and you back away from the fence quickly so he can bring them to you. Every time he is able to do this he gains a little more confidence and becomes more dog. You keep doing this getting further away from him and sheep each time until he can do it at 100 yards or better. You are still training the lift when bringing them off the fence but you are also training in confidence which is what the lift is all about. Don't worry if the dog starts pushing a little too hard on the fetch. That's what we want this dog to do. You can take care of the pace after you have the confidence. That's all for now. Have to go feed......Bob

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Bob and everyone,

 

I would like your suggestions. I have a nearly 2 yr old bc that has been doing really well. He is a quiet dog, nice shapes, good feel, knows his directions, flanks nicely, inside ect. He does not like messes. He is a bit defensive, tends to hang back a bit esp. if he feels something is going to run and he 'waits' on the sheep a bit long. Driving and lifting he goes in at a nice pace but if he gets into their bubble before they move then his head comes up and he waits on them to move. He does not flank or turn off, he will walk in super slow motion. Once they move he comes on nicely. I do encourage and sshhh ect I would like him to roll on in nicely but haven't figured out how to get him to do that. I have moved around and gotten behind the sheep with him to help. Most of my sheep need a bit of a push. I try to mix things up and work him on different breeds and combinations so he develops the ability to read and move them all. When he is driving and I am walking 20 yards away from him but parallel I can encourage him to move up and push and he will heel occasionally just enough to get things a bit faster. How does bringing them off a fence increase confidence any more than not on a fence? Are you talking about setting the sheep right up against the fence so he has to squeeze up against the fence? I have tried some pack pen work with him.

 

Thanks,

 

Denice

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Bob and everyone,

 

I would like your suggestions. I have a nearly 2 yr old bc that has been doing really well. He is a quiet dog, nice shapes, good feel, knows his directions, flanks nicely, inside ect. He does not like messes. He is a bit defensive, tends to hang back a bit esp. if he feels something is going to run and he 'waits' on the sheep a bit long. Driving and lifting he goes in at a nice pace but if he gets into their bubble before they move then his head comes up and he waits on them to move. He does not flank or turn off, he will walk in super slow motion. Once they move he comes on nicely. I do encourage and sshhh ect I would like him to roll on in nicely but haven't figured out how to get him to do that. I have moved around and gotten behind the sheep with him to help. Most of my sheep need a bit of a push. I try to mix things up and work him on different breeds and combinations so he develops the ability to read and move them all. When he is driving and I am walking 20 yards away from him but parallel I can encourage him to move up and push and he will heel occasionally just enough to get things a bit faster. How does bringing them off a fence increase confidence any more than not on a fence? Are you talking about setting the sheep right up against the fence so he has to squeeze up against the fence? I have tried some pack pen work with him.

 

Thanks,

 

Denice

Hi Denice. I'll answer your last question first. Taking sheep off a fence(right up against it) is not the same exercise as just getting the dog to walk up on the sheep in a field or walking beside him while driving. It involves the dog pushing in behind the sheep quietly and learning to have the confidence that he can do that. It is quite scary to some and it will, at times, create havoc with some dogs. A lot of them don't like to get in close to their sheep like that and will either fly in with tails up or refuse to go in. This is where the handler must insist (and not give up) that the dog go in on the sheep on the side he has been asked to go on. When he does finally give in and move in behind the sheep it is important that he is not let fly in and grip and be stupid about it. Make sure that you move away so the sheep have a place to go and the dog can bring them to you. This is very important. You are showing him how to be strong and quiet about his work and that is the way it must turn out. Corners are good for this as it is easy to change sides and the dog doesn't have to move too far to do it. When the dog does this with confidence and in quiet control the sheep will learn to trust and respect him and things will be much more in control. A dog that has done this repeatedly will have the confidence to lift pretty well any sheep, keeping in mind his genetic potential of which I talked earlier. You need to get further away from him as he progresses so that he becomes less dependant on you for his courage and confidence over a period of time.

To get back to your dog being quite cautious, it is important when running this kind of dog that you encourage him and keep him moving as much as possible. You say he doesn't like messes and you are right. However, you need to get him to make a few messes and recover from them. Get him to go in and do some heel bites if needed and this will also teach him that the SHEEP MUST MOVE. Try working a little closer when training him just to give him that edge that you are there. Slowly over a period of a couple of weeks get further away and ask him to walk up on his sheep. You keep backing away all the time so as not to stop the sheep. Try to run him with as few commands as possible to loosen him up and don't be to picky for a while until he loosens up. He is probably very obedient and biddable. These dogs usually are so it is quite easy for them to become too biddable and dependant on you as that is their nature. If he walks in nice and straight on his sheep when he is starting to drive, that is good. What you need to do when he gets into the "bubble" is urge him on and let him be a little nasty to start with. It doesn't hurt this kind of dog to get a little grippy as long as they are not cheap shots. What you want to do and your goal is to make a bit of an "animal" out of him and then bring him back to a place between where he was and that "animal" stage. The fence and corner work will do this and so will letting him make a few messes and recovering from them. Don't expect this to happen overnight. You are attempting to change this dog's character somewhat and it will not be easy or quick but it will be worthwhile. Try it, you'll like it! Bob

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Hi Denice, this is what I do:

 

"I have an exercise that's worked really well for me. I'll set a gate so that it will open with pressure from the sheep. I then ask my dog to drive them through it. He may have to work hard to get the sheep to bump it hard enough to open, but when it does and they go through, the dog feels 10 feet tall and bullet proof. Then I tinker with the gate to create different amounts of pressure needed for it to open."

 

Confidence is created when we set up situations that allow the dog to work at something and then win. When teaching the shed I will often let the dog take the shed off sheep away and pen them or put them in a trailer. If it can see the end result, shedding makes more sense in the beginning and he finished the job, he won. Depending on the dog's temperament, I may even let him beat me. I'll let him run through his stop a bit, be rash with his sheep, slow down when I said lie down or even blow me off completely.

 

BTW, If you have trouble getting the pressure on the gate just right, you may have to help the sheep open it in the beginning. But, after the dog is successful a few times, you'll have to get out of the way to avoid injury.

 

Cheers all

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Amelia

 

What a truly wise thing you said.

 

Letting the dog see the end result so that it makes sense.

 

When I teach to shed off lambs to load lambs in a trailer, I have often got to watch that moment of the dog thinking......

 

"Oh! I see! We split off these and they go in here and we drive off and unload them somewhere else."

 

That has always been a more sucessful way for me to teach them to shed than just doing it with no end result.

 

But I do not think I could have put it into words!

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Bob & Amelia,

 

Thank you for your suggestions. I haven't yet tried the gate exercise but I will. I did work on Bear bringing sheep out of the corner today and encouraging him a bunch so he would be 'less careful'. Bear has always been a rather easy going boy and enjoys calm and quiet. He gives me very dirty looks when I mess things up he needs to fix. I am also one that works calmly and quietly so I think we have been both rather 'happy' with everything going well. Bear picked up his directions quickly by me just putting words to his movement, he stands and stops well and his very much a team player. Today I worked hard on making things faster and more exciting, encouraging him to roll in and do whatever he wanted to make the sheep move and move now - no waiting and being a nice guy. He never got silly or out of control but he sure did move faster and enjoy himself. By the end of our session he was heeling the sheep even on the fetch!! I was Thrilled!!

 

I have been encouraging him to push and heel a bit on the drive and have been able to get him to do that but I have never been able to get him to heel on the fetch. I was very happy to see him loosen up some and rolling into the sheep much more. Now I know it is in there and I just have to continue to encourage him more, help him gain confidence and figure out he/we still can have control and push at the same time.

We will keep working on it.

Thanks again,

 

Denice

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Hi all, sometimes in trying to keep things all nice and "stockman like" we take too much of the "dog" out of the dog. there are times when we need to be careful with the sheep, but others when we don't. especially at home, where we and our dogs practically know the sheep by name, we can mix it up a little, make a mess sometimes and just let the dogs have sheep their way.

 

as hands, we have to be able to read the whole picture; the dog, sheep, location, weather, terrain, our mood!, and adapt on that basis. it's not always just about solid stops, clean flanks, steady pace, good feel.

 

i'm always observing my dogs to see how training is effecting them, their posture, attitude, style, ability. and I do mean always. i'm obsessive about it. i watch them at work, at play, when i interact with them, when i'm cleaning their kennels, feeding them, etc. i'm always trying to know each of them better, so that, as individuals, i can train them better. they're not all the same and neither are any of the circumstances in which i use them.

 

cheers all,

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