PatB Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Maggie and Molly are 2 year old sisters, spayed and up to date on their shots. We lived in a rural area and have been unable to keep them from "herding" our neighbors cows and horses. I guess we didn't know what we were getting into when we rescued them. The electric fence doesn't deter them and we don't have the means to fence 4 acres. Our neighbor has asked us to keep them out and eventually he is going to lose patience. They are very sweet girls, Molly likes naps in my lap and Maggie enjoys the bed in front of the fire. Please some one help us. This is breaking my heart, Ineed to know that they are going to a good home. We are in Kings Mountain NC. Pat and Dwight Beaty pb1081@yahoo.com eagle1081@yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I'm sure someone closer will get to you with information, but there is a Carolina Border Collie Rescue: http://cbcr.org/links.html Good luck. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Hello Pat, I'm sorry that you feel that your dogs need to be rehomed, when it sounds as if what they really need is to stay home and not leave to harass the neighbor's livestock. Your note mentions that you do not have the means to fence four acres, and I certainly agree that would be cost prohibitive for most of us. So, why not fence a smaller space for your dogs? It shouldn't cost too much to securely fence a quarter or half acre, and I imagine that would be advantageous for all (the dogs, your neighbor, and you). In an earlier post you wrote, " we need to let them run free". Well, now you are realizing one of the consequences of letting dogs run free. Also, in most rural areas, free roaming dogs that harass livestock often succumb to the "SSS" strategy implemented by the livestock's owner (SSS would be "shoot, shovel, and shut up"). I apologize for being so blunt, as it is obvious that you love your dogs and want what is best for them. So, please reconsider rehoming your dogs, as what is best for them is to stay home. Regards, nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Nancy has given you some excellent advice. With her reminder, I went back and read your original posts and hope that some had previously given you some counselling on the concept of "letting them run free", which is never a good idea with any dog (livestock guardian dogs and such run with their flock of sheep and are not really running "free" even if on open range). A roll of woven wire fencing is 330' long, which would give you an enclosure of about 80'x80' for "outside time". For the rest of the time, inside time is the best time for any pet dog. You can make such an enclosure using metal t-posts for the uprights, making sure that the dogs can't go under and won't jump over. The best solution for those two potential problems (other than consistent, fair, understandable training and supervision) is to run a strand of electric fencing on the inside bottom and inside top of the fence. This is not the same as electronic fencing which, as you have found out, does not deter a determined dog, does not function if the batteries are dead, and will not keep out unwanted dogs and such from your enclosure, either. Good training will do a world of wonders for problem behaviors. I suggest you use the "search" function at the top of the page to find articles dealing with teaching a solid "recall" (come), a good "down", and the "leave it" command, and other necessary obedience. It is best done from the beginning, with small pups, but can be taught to older animals that need retraining, with patience, consistency, firmness, and clarity. I hope that you are able to deal with the problems and keep your obviously well-loved girls in your household. If not, I hope that you can find suitable homes for them (the suggestion of Carolina Border Collie Rescue is excellent). Border Collies are very intelligent dogs and it takes smart, knowledgeable, common-sense training to avoid having them take on the alpha role in your household. Trust me on this, as my first "real working-bred, intense, instinctive" youngster was way smarter than I was and was training himself to be a monster due to my lack of understanding and experience. It would be a good idea to take a dog class with a competent instructor (and not all those who purport to be dog trainers are competent or helpful) to learn effective training techniques if you haven't already, but you can find all the information you need by searching prior threads here. Very best wishes for resolving your problems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Sue and Nancy pretty much said it. There is no reason you can't keep them, they just sound like they need some training and a smaller fenced area. Bc's don't need to run free because of they type of dog they are, they just need structure and training. Good luck with the girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Maggie and Molly are 2 year old sisters, spayed and up to date on their shots. We lived in a rural area and have been unable to keep them from "herding" our neighbors cows and horses. I guess we didn't know what we were getting into when we rescued them. The electric fence doesn't deter them and we don't have the means to fence 4 acres. Our neighbor has asked us to keep them out and eventually he is going to lose patience. They are very sweet girls, Molly likes naps in my lap and Maggie enjoys the bed in front of the fire. Please some one help us. This is breaking my heart, Ineed to know that they are going to a good home. OK, I don't get it. Obviously the dogs are housetrained and allowed indoors. Why is containing them a problem? I leashwalked my in-the-house BCs for two years until I could afford to fence my place. And I live on 33 acres. In the middle of nowhere. You can too keep them from harassing your neighbor's livestock. Which is what they're doing. They're not herding and they're going to either 1. get themselves killed or 2. cause one of your neighbor's horses to injure itself or 3. cripple somebody when they decide to take off after a horse under saddle and it dumps its rider. I'm amazed your neighbor has not already lost patience since according to your posts this has been going on for a year and a half. Which is how long it's been since you bought the dogs for fifty bucks. I'm part of a BC rescue in SC - Phoenix Rising (PRBCR). There's also, as posters above have noted, CBCR in NC. Our website is linked on CBCR's. Please, please, please find a way to keep these dogs safely at home with you. We are knee-deep in dogs right now. The celebration of the birth of Our Lord inspires many people every year to dump their dogs. But if you won't contain them, contact one of the rescues and we'll see if we have a place and if the dogs are mixed with enough BC that we can interest somebody in taking them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 If the fact that they are running away is the only reason you are going to rehome them, I also suggest fencing a smaller area for outdoor off leash time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 My first Border Collie had a fenced in back yard...about 40' by 80', tops. Other than that, she had a leash on. Our home was about 1100 sq ft, so she couldn't run TOO much indoors. She played with the other dog & kids & did fine. Yes, she loved it when we got a bigger place - but as others have said, you CAN train the dogs to deal with a small area. I think it cost me about $1/ft to put up a 4' horse fence, which I did 2 years before we got horses. Combined with part of our existing wall, it cost less than $500 to enclose about 1/4 acre. One advantage to two dogs is that they can get a LOT of exercise in 1/4 acre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 What happens when you let only one of the dogs out and keep the second inside until the first is done duing it's duty? Does the single stay waiting for the other? If so, then alternating them on turn out or putting one on a chain for the few minutes while they do their duty may work for you until you can get a better handle on them. Don't use a rope, ropes can be chewed through really fast and then you will have them bounding off harrassing the stock together. If containing one doesn't work get a chain for each and have them seperated so they can't get tangled up together, it's not like you are leaving them out 24 hours a day chained, it's just to insure that they stay put until they do their duty. You can set it up so each clip is just outside the door one going to the left the other going to the right, you may not even have to walk out onto the stoop if you set it up right. Regardless of how much training you have on them, if the pair are running off to hunt together as soon as you are not there to supervise and leave them to their own decisions they will probably run off. I say this through expirence, I can put Jake out and he won't go anywhere, put Riley out with him, and the two will get into trouble. Also, if you fence be sure you make it so that they are unsuccessful going over or under, it only takes one time to succeed in jumping out and over and they will jump out and over most any height, Riley is one that I have to keep in a capped run, she has succeeded in going up and over 7 foot effortlessly, I'm about ready to send her to someone that runs agility. She arrived her with her jumping habit, it was already well established by her previous owner. When she is in the house with my other dogs she gets put on a tie for potty breaks, she can't be trusted to not get in trouble so I put her in a situation that she can't get in trouble in. You made a committment when you rescued these two girls, it does not take much extra effort to manage their issue, it means that you can't just shove them out the door and forget that you have dogs. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 If the fact that they are running away is the only reason you are going to rehome them, I also suggest fencing a smaller area for outdoor off leash time. I second this answer. We have a fenced-in 2-acre yard (used that inexpensive green wire and inexpensive green metal posts.) Since fences can be compromised I took both my dogs out on leash for months when I first got them, even though there was a fence. My first one was a stray and a runner that could figure out how to get out of the fence, so I took him out on leash or monitored him in the yard for almost a year! He is totally reliable in the yard now, even if the gate is open. I still take Kylie out on leash in the morning and night because I am teaching her the routine that a.m. and p.m. let-outs are potty time and nothing more. It is working very, very well. Fences are great and make your life with a dog a lot easier. Yours won't need a huge area (sometimes having a 2-acre fenced yard can be a pain when they want to stay out and explore) and it will help you develop an in-and-out routine with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted January 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 First of all, I want to thank each of you for the replies. Some have been very hurtful and judgemental, since none of you know the whole issue, hindsight is 20/20. My husband (who is home with them all day) hasn't had much success in the training department. I am gone from 10 to 12 hours a day, depending on my work schedule. I don't want to give them up, I'm just discouraged and don't know what else to do. I could never forget my girls...I still haven't gotten over the death of my beloved rottie, Harley, part of my soul left with her. I'm concerned that wire fencing won't contain them, they've already figured out how to go under so they can get to the horses and cows. They are very determined and extremely smart. We'll talk again about putting up wire fencing, but I know my husband is very doubtful of that being successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I think that feeling discouraged is half the battle. I am really sure you guys can pull it together for the girls! They are young dogs, they'll need some extra patience, but there are some people on this board that have 2 or 3 dogs in a condo/apartment type setting, so it is do-able. Maybe your husband needs a little "pep talk" to boost his confidence. There are also really good trainers out there..have you thought of seeking out a really good obedience class to help you get a good foundation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I'm concerned that wire fencing won't contain them, they've already figured out how to go under so they can get to the horses and cows. They are very determined and extremely smart. We'll talk again about putting up wire fencing, but I know my husband is very doubtful of that being successful. ok, I'm going to address the wire fence since I've been there/done that. I think the biggest mistake people make when fencing is to assume that you put up the fence and it's a done deal. That's true if you start a young puppy out in the fence. However, introducing a fence to a dog who has been a runner is a whole different ball game. Just putting up the fence does not solve the problem. As you said, they are determined and smart. But because they are smart, they can be TRAINED to respect it. My dog had been a stray for maybe 6 months to a year...wandering and running at will. Then he was owned for a summer by a person who ALLOWED him to take off with her other dog and run freely through the countryside. And I knew this when I got him, so I knew I had a job ahead of me. He could find holes in the fence, and could go under the fence, and he's a smaller dog so that made it even more difficult. And so we spent much time walking 2 acres of fence and staking down parts of the fence that came up periodically (it was easy - we bought those camping stakes with a hook that people use to tie down their tents and canopies). We still check our fence regularly. I could not let him out in the 2 acre yard by himself for over a year without monitoring him. I had to watch him like a hawk. And sometimes he got past us and got out because we couldn't see around the pine trees...but I was there to call him right back in, so there was never a problem. If you are fencing in a smaller area, it won't be as difficult for you as it was for me. If you do go the fence route, it is ideal to put it right outside a door, so you don't have to walk them to it. If you do have to walk them to it, do it on lead - so there is no chance of a break-away. Once it is up and in place, I'm with Debbie -- let them out one at a time for a while so they can't get each other in trouble. Watch them so that the first time they are trying to dig under the fence, or climb or jump over it you can yell at them or correct them or divert them (whichever method you prefer.) If it is small area that is not outside the door, you need to make it close enough that you can monitor them at all times at first. You are right...I don't know your situation. But you don't have to get rid of your dogs because: the running is a LEARNED BEHAVIOR...and you taught it to them by allowing this to go on for so long. But the good news is that because it is a learned behavior, it can be "unlearned" and they can be "retrained". That I can guarantee. I've done it for years with my own dogs and with clients dogs. If they've been running for two years...then understand that it won't go away without a little work (and actually I truly believe that you can conquer this within a year's time.) I owned 12 German Shepherds in my lifetime that were all raised in yards with a 3 foot fence. Back then, they were taught to jump that high and more for Open and Utility. They could have jumped the fence anytime they wanted...or plowed through it for that matter. The key to a fence is not the barrier...it's teaching the dog to RESPECT the barrier. If you do get a fence and need help, feel free to contact me and I will help you any way I can. B ETA: I also want to add that if you think you husband will be a problem because he won't want to do anything to train or monitor them...I also have a solution for that. If he's home all day, have him only let them out once a day..separately...in the pen for just 10 or 15 minutes (enough to potty). A lot of dogs are home all day in the house while people work. Then, when you get home and on weekends, you can do the "fence training", which I honestly don't think is going to be difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 First of all, I want to thank each of you for the replies. Some have been very hurtful and judgemental, since none of you know the whole issue, hindsight is 20/20. My husband (who is home with them all day) hasn't had much success in the training department. I am gone from 10 to 12 hours a day, depending on my work schedule. I don't want to give them up, I'm just discouraged and don't know what else to do. I could never forget my girls...I still haven't gotten over the death of my beloved rottie, Harley, part of my soul left with her. I'm concerned that wire fencing won't contain them, they've already figured out how to go under so they can get to the horses and cows. They are very determined and extremely smart. We'll talk again about putting up wire fencing, but I know my husband is very doubtful of that being successful. As Linda said, discouragement is a large part of the problem when trying to deal with issues. I, too, have my own share of that and it is very self-defeating. I am sorry if I sounded judgemental - I didn't mean to be. Remember that all that others on these boards know of your situation is what you yourself have posted. Painted Ponies is actively involved in Border Collie rescue, has seen many sad situations, tried to help many dogs (and owners), and is going to be very blunt - and she is not the only such person. She (and others in rescue) spend a great deal of time, emotion, and resources in trying to sort out and solve other folks' problems related to dog issues and rehoming. They don't have much patience left for dealing with people who can't properly supervise or train their own dogs (no matter how much they have loved them or how much they have done for them), and thus need someone else to help them out of their problems rather than accepting constructive advice on how they can solve their own problems. As she said, you've had these problems for quite some time now, but this is the first time that anyone here seems to have been made aware and asked for help or input, and these issues (running off, chasing horses) pose extremely dangerous potential problems for your dogs, the horses, and anyone else who might become involved (a driver, a rider, the neighbor). If my neighbors' dogs were to have come over here more than once (with me speaking to the neighbors about it) and harassed my horse, cattle, cats, or dogs and they did not make a real effort to solve the problem (ie, take care of the problem so it didn't happen again), I would feel forced to either file a complaint with the local authorities or SSS. And I can tell you which is the simplest, least-stress choice in the long run, as distasteful as it might be. You can put up a relatively inexpensive, successful fence if you do as advised - making it dog-proof below and above, which is most readily done with a good electric fence unit properly installed. You can use a long line for dog duties - you can get them at sporting goods or pet stores - so the dog(s) can not take off but yet have enough room to accomplish their business. A dog can do all that on a regular, 6' lead for that matter. You can work on training. You are gone many hours in the day and your husband is not able to accomplish that, from what you say. Training doesn't take a lot of time - 5, 10, 15 minute sessions are fine and will give your dogs some mental exercise as well. Since you say your husband has not had much success in training, perhaps a high priority would be for him (and, hopefully, you also) to attend a series of good training classes to gain the skills needed to be successful in retraining your dogs. If you don't or can't solve the problem yourself, your alternatives are to let it continue (and the neighbor may feel forced to "solve" it for you - he seems like a very forgiving sort of stockowner, who is doing his stock no favors by allowing this behavior to continue); you could find a good and suitable home or homes yourself (which can be very difficult to do); you can surrender your dogs to a rescue, if you can find a reputable one with room for two more dogs (as PP said, most rescues are overflowing with good dogs looking for homes, and this time of year is no different and maybe worse); you can surrender them to a shelter where, as owner surrenders, they could be euthanized within 24 hours; or you could take them to your vet and have them euthanized. No one is trying to be judgemental or mean, but solving this problem can very well be a matter of life or death or crippling injuries for your two dogs, or a neighboring horse, or a child riding by on horseback, etc. This is a very serious problem, and everyone here hopes that you can work it out so that the dogs, neighbors, livestock, etc., can be safe and happy. Please be willing to listen to the advice given, give it careful consideration, and put in the effort needed to solve your problem. You can do this yourself, and you and your dogs will be better off because you did. If you can't, I hope you can find good homes or a reputable rescue, where someone will be able to work with your dogs to retrain them and give them a safe and happy future. Beachdogz posted while I was posting - excellent advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 If you actually want to keep your dogs, fence the area around your house and use it like a normal yard. The suggestion to only let the girls out one at a time, and to supervise them when out, is an excellent one. The solution to your problem is very simple, so there should be no impediment to keeping the dogs you say you love. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Pat, I think what others have said about fencing giving you a false sense of security is very true. Your husband no doubt believes that your dogs could tunnel under a fence as easily as they are getting around the electric fence -- and he's probably right. But the difference would be that the enclosure would be smaller and easily recognized by the dogs as being the limits of their territory, you would be closer to them and then better able to supervise, and most important of all, they would never be out there alone and unattended. I have no allusions that having one dog to train is probably easier than two (esp siblings), and that behaviour that has been learned and acted upon for two years will be difficult to re-direct, but I believe it is still possible with commitment. If you love and would really like to keep these dogs, IMO you can overcome this problem. I think the fact that the neigbouring farmer(s) is at the breaking point is what is rattling you, since before now, the problem was annoying but not serious enough to resolve once and for all. No one wants to judge; we just want to open your eyes to all the possible alternatives before you abdicate responsbility. That being said, would you consider constructing a makeshift agility course for them in this smaller fenced area? This would allow you to play, train and exercise the dogs in such a way that could be fun for all of you, strengthen your bonds and give you all a task that would provide a real sense of accomplishment. There are many here that do agility with their dogs and can give you some tips about this, as well as point you in the direction of some good resources. Good luck and please let us know how you get along, Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC-Liz Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I think that feeling discouraged is half the battle. I am really sure you guys can pull it together for the girls! They are young dogs, they'll need some extra patience, but there are some people on this board that have 2 or 3 dogs in a condo/apartment type setting, so it is do-able. Maybe your husband needs a little "pep talk" to boost his confidence. There are also really good trainers out there..have you thought of seeking out a really good obedience class to help you get a good foundation? Yep, I'm one of them. 3 Border Collies and 1 Coon Hound in a townhome currently. Yes, BC's need to run and release their excess energy, but others have been right, they don't need to run free. I've found that what works my dogs out more is structured exercise. Fetching, involving tricks, a leashed (unleashed if they're trust worthy) run where they have to hold a proper heal (which can be different for others, our proper heal is on their respective sides...all 3 can't be on my left side...with their heads right around my hip bone). Sounds like you have some land too, so what about maybe putting in an agility course and teaching the dogs that. An hour learning agility equipment (properly mind you) works wonders on my pups. This may not be an option if you don't have anywhere to take lessons though. As you pointed out, I don't know your entire situation. I'm discouraged to hear that your husband has been having a hard time training them. How is he doing this? Maybe there's something there we can try and improve. I hope you can get the fence up and that it works for you, but please don't try and use a fenced in area as their exercise, that will just cause them to get bored and try to undermine the fence. A bored BC = disaster....I'm sure others can share some delightful stories. I know I have a few The best thing you can do for your girls right now is not give up on them. It sounds like you really care about them. I hope you can solve this problem before anyone/anything gets hurt. Good luck and feel free to contact me with any further questions. I'm in NC too and if need be I could come see your pups and try and help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I'm guessing that these dogs have become very bonded to each other and find great satisfation in the "fun" they have together. High energy breeds cannot really be allowed to exercise themselves outside - the source of exercise and entertainment they find is often unacceptable and dangerous. I live on 150 acres, but my dogs are never out without supervision. If I took on a pair like that I would start by seperating them and finding a new outlet for their energy and intelligence. First off, like several of the others have said, fence your yard and don't let them out together. When they go out it's for short potty breaks or to play ball, frisbee, etc, with you. You need to break the cycle in their minds that going outside=going to chase the neighbors animals. It's going to take some work and a bit of extra time for a few months, but the rewards will be far greater than the effort. I would also not give them much affection/attention in the house. Then when you take one outside for one on one time with one of you bring out the treats, the toys, the attention. Make them excited about going out to do somthing with you. Before you get a fence up you can keep them on a long line when outside. And then look for a training class in your area. Most of it you can do on your own, but I've found than when working with a class I stay more motivated and my dog makes better progress, because I have a goal/deadline. And a good trainer will help you find a training method that works for your dogs. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I'm concerned that wire fencing won't contain them, they've already figured out how to go under so they can get to the horses and cows. They are very determined and extremely smart. We'll talk again about putting up wire fencing, but I know my husband is very doubtful of that being successful. We also used the green wire mesh fencing and metal poles to fence our acre yard. In addition, we fenced a much smaller area as their "potty" area just outside the door. If you are concerned about them going under, try spacing your posts just six feet apart and make sure the wire mesh touches the ground when you attach it to the poles. We used cable ties, but you could probably find something stronger if you need it. If the dogs were getting the mesh up enough to get under, this is what I would do: In the landscaping section of home improvement stores, they sell these strong U-shaped wire things to tack landscaping cloth into the ground with. If you got two of those per 6 foot section of fence, you could then tack the mesh directly to the ground. If you don't just leave them out there by themselves, that ought to take care of them getting through underneath the mesh. We have never even tacked ours down and, even though the neighbor's cats push it up to come in and out under, our dogs never have. It's certainly worth a try. Also, once I got a small fenced area set up, I would also let them out one at a time until they learn that the fence is a boundary, unless I went along to supervise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisK Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 You have received some excellent advice so I won't repeat it. Just to let you know, that I have 160 acres which I own but my dogs have an 80 x 60 fenced area for their outside time. This is plenty large enough for them to play.I have a 5 ft chainlink fence. This area is strictly for the dogs. We play ball, frisbee, do some training all in this area. The only time they venture out of that area is for leash walks or for longer off-leash snow shoe or hiking under supervision. When I'm not at home, the dogs are inside where they are quite content. I do far less with my dogs than many people do, yet they are healthy and happy and enjoy being at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Just a couple of comments, referring back to references to training boundaries - inside my house, we have some "barriers". They are only two feet tall and are originally "bunny barriers" for our now very aged house rabbit. My dogs could easily bound over these but they have been trained since pups that a barrier is a boundary and not to be crossed. I have once or twice (foolishly, I might add) encouraged a dog to jump over one to save my lazy self from getting up and opening a barrier. They have never, ever jumped one. That is because they were trained from the beginning to respect the boundary, and corrections that are timed well are the key, as they are in all sorts of dog training. The correction needs to come when the thought is occuring to the dog to do the behavior, not once the dog is in the undesired behavior, for best results. Catch the dog while it is still just barely even thinking about doing "the wrong thing" and make the correction. I have allowed my dog(s) to develop some bad behaviors that, had I trained smartly and consistently, would have been avoided by nipping them in the bud before they became ingrained bad habits. Retraining is harder than training right the first time but it can be done, and there are numerous people on these boards that can attest to that. We've all made some mistakes, some more than others and some more serious ones than others, so you are not alone. Since you have a lot of remedial training to do with this issue, the use of long lines and leashes is essential, as several posters have helpfully pointed out. Also, as you have read, separating the dogs so that their unacceptable behaviors are not reinforcing each other, and so that you and your commands will become more important. I surely hope you can solve your problem. It is obvious that you bought these dogs out of compassion and love them very much, and I hope to see them stay safely and happily (for all concerned) in your household. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I'll add my voice to the "got a fence but never leave him out alone" crowd. My trainer, very early on, said "Don't let your dog be out in the yard barking along the fence." Honestly, if I leave Buddy out there with nothing to do, he puts himself on patrol: listening for the tiniest noise from the street or the five properties that back ours. And he'll bark an alert to every noise, be it hopping squirrel or moseying skunk. I just figure this is obnoxious to my neighbors - it's obnoxious enough to my ears. I'm lucky that I have a dog who never tries to dig out - he seems to have no interest in leaving the property. But I'm wondering if he wouldn't get up to that kind of mischief if I left him out there to get lonely and bored long enough. I do a street walk of about 45 minutes in the morning before work (5 a.m.!), and then when I can, I take Buddy off leash to a wooded park nearby in the afternoon. It's tough in the winter when the sun goes down at 4:15. On a day without a lot of physical exercise, I try to play extra mental games in the house: hide and seek with his squeaker is a favorite. Can't imagine how much work two adolescent dogs are. I'm guessing it's the like the difference between having one baby and having twins. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinKate Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 I KNOW your frustation. I was very strict with my BCs. There were things they wouldn't dream of doing when I was there. My husband however, not the dog trainer one bit. It was so hard to fix a problem on my day off, just to go to work, and have hubs who was home all day, let them do the action. UGHHH! If you feel like you have come to the conclusion that you have to rehome your dogs, do so. I am sure it is your last resort. That decision wouldn't come easy for anyone. You know your situation, you know what will work. People here are great with training advice, and they really know their stuff. But if you don't have someone at home helping you, you are just spinning your wheels. I feel for you. Good luck in whatever you decide. I hope you can work something out to keep them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinKate Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Where are you guys getting the additional info? Did I miss another post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 First of all, I want to thank each of you for the replies. Some have been very hurtful and judgemental, since none of you know the whole issue, hindsight is 20/20. My husband (who is home with them all day) hasn't had much success in the training department. I am gone from 10 to 12 hours a day, depending on my work schedule. I don't want to give them up, I'm just discouraged and don't know what else to do. So enlighten us. What is the whole issue? We can't help you with incomplete information. Give me one good reason you can't restrain these dogs. There's no TRAINING to it. Just restrain them. You do too know what to do. Fence them, chain them (for short periods while you're home and can supervise), or leash walk them. Shut them in a stall. Buy two crates at Tractor Supply and crate them in the house when you're not home. Good God, woman, you're the one with thumbs. Why is this hard????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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