Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I was contacted by a writer for Dog World. She's putting together a feature on the Border Collie. I understand this has already been circulating on the Showdogs-L. You can help by filling out the following questionaire. I then will direct her to this thread, plus other materials on this site and other sites. Dog World has given me some specific guidelines in the writing of this article, and I would be grateful if you could give me your thoughts on the following points:- 1. What is the temperament of the breed? 2. What do you love about this breed? And hate? 3. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with other pets in the home - dogs, cats, small pets, etc? 4. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with children? 5. What do you see as the main problems with or threats to the breed today? 6. What is the usual lifespan of the breed? 7. Where do you think the breed currently excels, and where is improvement needed? 8. I understand from my preliminary research that there is some controversy regarding the show-bred Border Collie and the working Border Collie, and that there are several BC registries, some of which do not permit dogs to be shown in conformation. I would be grateful if you could give me a short overview of this situation, and your opinion regarding this apparent split in the breed. 9. Can you recommend any other owners, breeders, or exhibitors that I could contact for further information? I would very much like to obtain opinions and stories from a broad cross-section of owners. Finding information on history, grooming, etc, is not difficult, but I particularly need some personal anecdotes, stories, and observations that illustrate unique points of the breed's character, particularly those naming specific dogs. I would be most grateful if you could supply any. Dog World loves these in their Meet The Breed features! Finally, I would need the following information from you: - Your job title - Any degrees you hold - Your affiliations in the Border Collie world and general dog world (positions and/or memberships in breed clubs and all-breed clubs) - Number of years you have been in the breed - Your full mailing address - Your phone number. Dog World requires that I obtain this information from all sources, but only your name and city and a short reference about your association with the breed would be published. Many thanks in advance for taking the time to help me in any way on this so that I can present a truthful picture of the breed. My deadline for receiving your contribution is Wednesday, January 7, 2009. Again, I realize that this is not an ideal time of year to be asking for your help and there are only a few days for you to formulate a reply. I hope you had an excellent Christmas and wish you a successful New Year! ETA: I apologize - it was late and I forgot to post the email address if you don't feel comfortable posting your responses online. I'd love it if people would share their reactions to several of the key points, though. Stephanie Horans at horans at xplornet.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 1. What is the temperament of the breed? Inquisitive. Intense. Intuitive. Alert. Biddable. Businesslike. 2. What do you love about this breed? And hate? I love their extreme handler orientation, biddability, and intuitiveness. They are problem solvers and do not blindly wait for direction. They are true partners and coworkers. These are also traits that makes them very high maintenance pets. I could live without their tendency to be noise phobic. 3. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with other pets in the home - dogs, cats, small pets, etc? When I had a cat, my first Border Collie spent a goodly amount of time staring at him. When I had a Papillon, my Border Collies had different reactions to him. One completely ignored the Papillon unless he was being attacked by said Papillon, who had a resource guarding problem, and then he reacted to him like he would react to any other dog that attacked him. The other Border Collie I had at the time would play and play and play with the Papillon. 4. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with children? My older bitch completely ignores children (and indeed, all strangers) unless they have toys or balls to throw, and then she will fetch for hours. She is completely uninterested in running children, bicycles, skateboards, or anything else of that sort. She is also an imported working sheepdog. My pup, 14 months old, is very interested in running children, bicycles, skateboards, and all the other stereotypical things that Border Collies are supposed to be interested in. She wants very much to chase them (note I said chase, not “herd” -- she has been exposed to sheep, she knows the difference, and it would be obvious to anyone who saw her in both contexts). However, she will call off them immediately when commanded. She is from excellent working lines. My oldest dog does not interact with children as he has “issues.” However, he has never been the slightest bit interested in them or their movements anyway, unless they are very close and staring at him, in which case he reacts to them like he would any other stranger. He is a rescue of mixed (as in, kinda good and kinda crappy) breeding. In general I would say it is safe to describe Border Collies as interested in movement, but there is a lot of individual variation. I do not recommend the breed to families with young children who just want a pet, partly because of their interest in movement, but also because of their high maintenance nature. I do not live with children so I cannot describe their reactions in an everyday living context. 5. What do you see as the main problems with or threats to the breed today? The first and most serious threat I see to the breed is loss of focus. This is a breed that only exists because there was and still is a need for working stockdogs. Despite popular opinion, livestock agriculture is alive and well around the world and many, many Border Collies are employed for a living. Breeding for alternative uses such as dog showing and dog sports (agility, flyball, etc.) threatens to destroy the very identity of the breed. Not all forms of “work” are equivalent -- and again, anyone who has worked, I mean really worked, stock with a good dog understands that. Dogs that are bred for the show ring and for dog sports are perfectly nice dogs, but I do not consider them Border Collies. If you don't breed for working instinct, by which I mean livestock working instinct, you lose it. A Border Collie without livestock working instinct lacks breed type. Selecting for traits other than working ability produces a new kind of dog. Kennel club breeds have been split for reasons much less profound, like erect vs. tipped ears (Norfolk vs. Norwich Terriers), or coat color (Belgian Sheepdog vs. Tervuren). No one -- and I mean, no one, other than some laypeople -- has any trouble distinguishing a working Border Collie from a show dog given the relevant contexts. Put both in a field with sheep and the difference is stark. Stand them next to each other and it is probably pretty stark too. Indeed, the breed ring dogs are so homogeneous in appearance that you could probably train a child who doesn't even like dogs to pick them out of a lineup in less than five minutes. The second major threat I see to the breed itself, and individuals within the breed, is indiscriminate breeding in general. Border Collies have become rather popular as pets, and there are way too many irresponsible breeders out there, producing way too many dogs that have not been bred for anything in particular (not work, or show, or sports) except to satisfy the market. Often owners find that the breed is a bad fit for them, and the dogs end up homeless. This is terrible for individual dogs (and the people who work hard to rescue them) and also terrible for the breed, since after enough indiscriminate breeding these dogs do not excel at working stock either. 6. What is the usual lifespan of the breed? 12-14 years seems average but I regularly hear of dogs living past that age. What is more they tend to remain active and healthy longer than many other breeds of comparable size. 7. Where do you think the breed currently excels, and where is improvement needed? The Border Collie is the best stockdog in the world. It can also be improved in this respect, always improved, and that is what breeders should select for. It is a relatively healthy breed, probably because it is bred for function. It has a large, diverse gene pool for a purebred dog, due to local preferences and frequent outcrossing and less of a “popular sire” effect than is seen in many other breeds. The dogs are allowed to vary widely in respects that “fanciers” often consider important (like looks) but are remarkably canalized in terms of behavior. I personally love the diversity of looks in the breed, and the fact that my three dogs look nothing alike -- until they move. Anyone who saw all three of them moving together would have no difficulty recognizing all of them as Border Collies, and they all work. 8. I understand from my preliminary research that there is some controversy regarding the show-bred Border Collie and the working Border Collie, and that there are several BC registries, some of which do not permit dogs to be shown in conformation. I would be grateful if you could give me a short overview of this situation, and your opinion regarding this apparent split in the breed. There are no Border Collie registries that do not permit dogs to be shown in conformation. People who work Border Collies tend to dislike being told what to do, and therefore tend to avoid telling other people what they should and should not do with their dogs. The American Border Collie Association will deregister any dog that attains an AKC championship, because of what that says about the owner's priorities, but that is not the same thing. There are a number of working Border Collie folks who would prefer that conformation showing were prohibited, and that dual registration (AKC/ABCA) be prohibited, but the ABCA has not implemented such rules. The Border Collie has been bred to work livestock for literally hundreds of years. Relatively recently, descendants of Border Collies have become popular among breed exhibitors, and therefore distinct populations of dogs have been developed for this purpose, primarily in Australia and New Zealand. These dogs are now phenotypically and genotypically distinct from working Border Collies, enough so that I feel comfortable calling them a different breed. (I am an evolutionary biologist who just spent three years studying dog genetics, if that means anything.) Of course, you can put anything with papers saying it is a Border Collie into the ring, so there are dogs in the ring from all populations of dogs called Border Collies (show, sport, even working) --–but I am talking about the dogs that predominate, and more importantly, win. Many people with working Border Collies believe that Border Collies do not belong in the show ring, and that breeding for the show ring would ruin the breed if it became predominant. I agree with this viewpoint. My take on it is that the breed ring dogs are no longer Border Collies, and should be called something else. Working and show dogs are at least as different from each other as the American and Japanese Akitas, and more different from each other than Groens and Tervs. Breeds are defined both by common ancestry and by consistency of type, and these two populations are consistent for very different definitions of “type.” Many people with show dogs feel that their dogs still have a “herding heritage” and should therefore be considered Border Collies. It is true that, with varying degrees of recency, their dogs have herding heritage. But how pertinent is that heritage when dogs have not been selected for working ability for dozens of generations, and when working ability plays no role in selecting breeding animals for future generations? Like any other point of type (ear set, coat, markings, what have you) -- actually, more so, since it is so complex --–working ability does not just sort of hang around in the absence of selection for it, it is either lost, or rendered so very variable (as in, maybe 1/100 show dogs could prove themselves in a real farm situation, or get around a trial course -- and I am being extremely generous with my 1/100 estimate) as to be useless. People who want or need working dogs do not want to rely on a 1/100 chance or worse that their dog will be useful, just as people who want or need show dogs do not want to be engaging in a crapshoot when they pick their next potential breed ring champion. I have nothing against show dogs. I have met plenty and I think they are very nice dogs, but I do not think they are very similar to my Border Collies, and do not consider them the same breed. Finding information on history, grooming, etc, is not difficult, but I particularly need some personal anecdotes, stories, and observations that illustrate unique points of the breed's character, particularly those naming specific dogs. I would be most grateful if you could supply any. Dog World loves these in their Meet The Breed features! I would be happy to provide these -- I have written a number of such sketches that are posted online at http://sites.google.com/site/canissoloensis/. However, I would require an author credit if any of these were published, and all are subject to copyright. Please let me know if you would like to discuss this. Finally, I would need the following information from you: Your job title: scientist Any degrees you hold: PhD Your affiliations in the Border Collie world and general dog world (positions and/or memberships in breed clubs and all-breed clubs): researcher, Canine Behavioral Genetics Project, UCSF (www.k9behavioralgenetics.com); member, USBCHA (United States Border Collie Handlers’ Association); member, USBCC (United States Border Collie Club); member, OSDS (Oregon Sheepdog Society); member, ABCA (American Border Collie Association – but my membership may have lapsed); editor, USBCC newsletter Number of years you have been in the breed: 8 I will provide contact info if needed. I can also send this as a Word document or pdf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Wow, I'm not sure that I could contribute anything that would add to what the previous poster says. I can at least follow her format. 1. What is the temperament of the breed? There is a great deal of variability in temperment in working-bred Border Collies because they have been bred for working ability, and different temperments suit different handlers, stock-working situations, and training styles. In general, though, they tend to be motion and noise sensitive, attuned to their handler, and intensely involved with whatever they are doing (particularly working stock). They can range from being very sociable with people (of all ages) to being quite aloof, and bold to cautious with strange people and situations. They "read" stock and they "read" people. 2. What do you love about this breed? And hate? They are intelligent, biddable, handler-oriented and task-oriented. There is a certain level of independent thinking which needs to be balanced with biddability. They are also intense. They are also physically and mentally very active but have an "off-switch" as well. There is nothing that I "hate" about the breed but these and other characteristics often result in them not being suitable for many households. I am personally not affected by any noise phobias in the dogs I have had but that is one problem that can cause severe issues in some animals. 3. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with other pets in the home - dogs, cats, small pets, etc? My dogs generally get along with most other dogs but seem most comfortable around other Border Collies. Many Border Collie owners will tell you the same thing about their dogs. Mine are not comfortable around "staring", flat-faced, hairy-faced dogs - Boxers, Bouviers, Old English Sheepdogs - those dogs with flat faces, round eyes, and a staring attitude; those dogs that are very upright and staring; and those dogs with a lot of facial hair where reading eyes and expression is difficult. They get along well with good-natured dogs but nto dogs that get in their face (like many "dog park dogs" tend to do, pet Goldens and Labs for instance) with either pushy friendliness or bullying. They don't get along comfortably with dogs with "attitude". They do get along well with confident, self-assured dogs with good manners. They don't tend to go out of their way to interact with other dogs but seem to be more focused on each other, the job at hand, and/or their handler, depending on the situation. The majority of our dogs have lived very compatibly with cats. Some will spend a great deal of time trying to "work" cats and, while some of this behavior may not affect cats that are confident and unafraid, it can be an issue for more shy or apprehensive cats, or when the dog takes the behavior too far. We have a house rabbit (and have had others previously). Only one of our Border Collies has shown any "interest" in rabbits when the rabbit is caged (this is a dog that also tries to "work" the cats) and another has shown a worrisome interest in the rabbit when he is out of the cage (and she also demonstrates that sort of prey drive with small animals outside the house, like woodchucks and squirrels). Our other Border Collies have all ignored cats and house rabbits entirely, or played nicely (wrestled) with agreeable cats. A Border Collie can, and should. be trained to not harass or "work" small pets and any shortcoming in that training in my household has strictly been mine. One thing you did not ask for was how are Border Collies around outside animals, horses, wildlife, etc. They can either wish to "work" inappropriately (as in the case of horses) or have a strong prey drive with regards to wildlife. Again, it is a matter of good training to avoid issues with inappropriate or potentially dangerous/harmful interactions with these other animals. 4. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with children? We have six grandchildren, and two of our dogs have also been registered Therapy Dogs. One dog, a bitch, loves all children and babies in particular. Except for her, our dogs have tended to be very cautious around smaller children and babies. But, they have not grown up with small children in the house. The one dog that did so, was comfortable with the smallest member of the household. In general, I would not say that Border Collies are a good choice for families with small children. I do not consider our dogs to be in any way frightening or dangerous to our grandchildren, but I carefully monitor interactions both for the sake of the children and for the sake of the dogs. 5. What do you see as the main problems with or threats to the breed today? Breeding for traits other than good stockworking abilities (and the health, soundness, and temperment that that requires), which includes breeding for conformation/show (including breeding for a supposed conformation "standard" that has nothing really to do with breeding for stockwork, coat, color, ear set, eye color, etc.) and breeding for performance sports or the pet market. This is the ultimate stock-working dog. Generations of breeding for those characteristics have made the working-bred Border Collie what it is today - intelligent, biddable, athletic, sound, healthy, and possessing stock sense. Breeding for other characteristics causes the loss of what makes the breed unique - the ability to be a stock-working partner for the farmer/rancher who needs to handle their stock in a reduced-stress, beneficial manner. An additional threat is that, due to the pervasive presence and influence of AKC and other venues that promote conformation showing and a large pet market, Joe Q. Public has been led to believe that show-ring "Border Collies" (and they are no longer Border Collies, just descendents of Border Collies that have been bred to be something else) are the "real" Border Collie and the epitome of the breed, when nothing could be further from the truth. The success of Border Collies in performance sports has also led to them being bred for those venues, and not for the whole package that comprises the working Border Collie. This has led to the development of dogs who possess some of the traits of the breed, and lack some other, very crucial characteristics that balance those traits. Another major threat or problem is poor breeding choices and/or over-breeding by individuals who are simply "producing" puppies. These can be people who claim to be producing "working-bred" pups, or pet, performance, or show pups. This, I am sure, is an issue in any breed. This includes the puppy miller and back-yard breeder. 6. What is the usual lifespan of the breed? In my personal and anecdotal experience, generally between 13 and 15 years of age. 7. Where do you think the breed currently excels, and where is improvement needed? Well-bred (working-bred) Border Collies are the ultimate stockdog for many farmers and ranchers. Quality of breeding choices is always important, making wise decisions about matings of proven dogs/bitches, and seeing that offspring are worked on stock to evaluate the product of such matings. Improvement is needed in that there are those who will breed lines with known, heritable problems that are produce significant temperment, health, and soundness issues. Breeding for health and soundness needs to always be part of the breeding package. However, that does not mean using all sorts of "tests" but rather to prove dogs/bitches on stock, breed from proven quality bloodlines, and to eliminate animals from the breeding pool that will not make a positive contribution to the breed. 8. I understand from my preliminary research that there is some controversy regarding the show-bred Border Collie and the working Border Collie, and that there are several BC registries, some of which do not permit dogs to be shown in conformation. I would be grateful if you could give me a short overview of this situation, and your opinion regarding this apparent split in the breed. In the United States, the primary registry is the American Border Collie Association. Those dogs that are dual-registered with a kennel club and achieve a conformation championship, are de-registered. That is because any owner/handler emphasizes show-ring achievements is obviously intent in taking the breed in a direction where it should not be going. Several kennel club registries recognize the Border Collie. They also accept ABCA registrations into their organizations to allow dual-registration. ABCA does not recognize any kennel club registrations. An unregistered dog can only be "registered on merit" in ABCA through a rigorous testing program that is totally based on livestock-working abilities. The recognition of the Border Collie by the AKC (primarily) and inclusion of the breed as a show-ring breed has definitely resulted in a split in the breed. Dogs bred for conformation competition characterisitics are no longer being bred for the defining characteristic of the breed, stock-working ability, and therefore are no longer really Border Collies. The same thing is true of those being bred for performance sports or the pet market. One unfortunate offshoot of this situation is that the general public believes these show-ring or performance dogs to be the "real thing" or the genuine Border Collie - and they are not, as they are not being bred to be "true" Border Collies. 9. Can you recommend any other owners, breeders, or exhibitors that I could contact for further information? I would very much like to obtain opinions and stories from a broad cross-section of owners. Finding information on history, grooming, etc, is not difficult, but I particularly need some personal anecdotes, stories, and observations that illustrate unique points of the breed's character, particularly those naming specific dogs. I would be most grateful if you could supply any. Dog World loves these in their Meet The Breed features! Our first working-bred dog on our small cattle farm was a farm-bred dog named Rocket. As a youngster, he did not want anything to do with our cattle but developed with maturity into a bold and helpful working dog. One day, my husband, the children, and I went up into a field to treat a newly-born calf that had pinkeye. Ed, our oldest son, and Rocket went into the brush to treat the calf. The younger children and I waited behind. As Ed took hold of the calf to treat him, he squealed, and his previously docile mother raced over and proceeded to rub my husband into the ground with murderous, protective-mother intent. Rocket came running and launched himself at the cow and, with our son's help, proceeded in driving her off. My husband might not be here today if it wasn't for that dog. On another occasion, a bull threatened my husband. Rocket leapt up and sunk his teeth into that enormous animal's tender nose, and went for the ride of his life as the bull spun in circles, attempting to dislodge this painful creature. All thoughts in that bull's mind of being aggressive towards my husband ended with that experience. Rocket had dealt a very timely and effective correction to that bull's potentially dangerous thoughts. We have dogs right now of very differing "personalities" or temperments. Each in their own way has strong points and comes in handy in particular jobs on the farm. We were moving cattle from one side of the farm, across a road, to the other side. As our small herd of 30 adult animals and 27 youngsters proceeded across, those in the lead hesitated on going into the new field and therefore, following animals began to spread up and down the road, with the potential of some or all of them heading one way or the other. My husband just called the name of our youngest dog, who is a very "job-oriented" dog, and Bute proceeded without commands to dash out of the first field, and move up the road to "tuck in" the cattle going one way, and then down the road to "tuck in" the cattle moving the other way, until he had gathered them all and pushed them through the opening into the second field. That didn't take commands - it took instinct, intelligence, stock sense, and physical ability. And what he did saved the day as, without dogs, we would have spent the rest of the day trying to round up our cows from the neighbors' properties. Finally, I would need the following information from you: - Your job title - I am a homemaker, mother of four grown children and grandmother of six youngsters, a farmer, and a bookseller at a university bookstore - Any degrees you hold - I have an MS in Wildlife Management - Your affiliations in the Border Collie world and general dog world (positions and/or memberships in breed clubs and all-breed clubs) - I am a member of the United States Border Collie Handlers Association, the American Border Collie Association (registry), the United States Border Collie Club (the original Border Collie "breed club" in the US), the Virginia Border Collie Association (a regional trial association), and a past member (no longer a member) of an AKC affiliate club (where I assisted with puppy and family dog training classes) - Number of years you have been in the breed - it was about 50 years ago when I first had a Border Collie in the family, but we began having working Border Collies on our cattle farm in 1986, so it's been about 20 years that we have utilized Border Collies (and Aussies at times) on our farm - Your full mailing address and phone number - email susan.rayburn@gmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I thought folks would like to see how I respond. Long winded, for one. I snarfed this out of my e-mail so apologies for the awful formatting. I'll fix it later. 1. What is the temperament of the breed? The Border Collie, as originally bred, is a working dog with a very particular purpose - to manage livestock in a very specific way. Thus, the way the dog was meant to work shapes everything about the breed as it was bred orginally and continues to be bred by livstock workers and those who maintain the breed via competitions, for those livestock workers. More about that later. Specifically, the work of the Border Collie means that BALANCE is paramont to every characteristic. A dog that is a good working partner, must be eager to work, and yet able to control his impulses. It does me no good to have a working dog, and have to keep the dog tied, kenneled, or crated while doing chores - he needs to be patiently waiting to work. A dog must have courage to stand against stubborn livestock, but have the ability to be gentle and thoughtful with silly youngters. A dog must be adaptable to ever-changing circumstances and be able to think quickly to adjust to the wiles of livestock, but always have an ear ready to hear a command. Don McCaig is the grand old man of our culture. His books are really required reading - but there are a few samples of his writing here to get you started: http://www.bordercollie.org/nt.html http://www.bordercollie.org/nh1.html http://www.bordercollie.org/ed1.html http://www.bordercollie.org/ed2.html http://www.bordercollie.org/ud.html One illustration of the ideal mental makeup of a Border Collie that I like, comes from Mr. McCaig. He likens it to taking a child, handing them an egg and a spoon, and then requiring them to balance the egg across the backyard while you bark orders at the child like STOP, LEFT, RIGHT, FASTER, SLOWER, HEY WHAT ARE YOU DOING! The child will quickly dissolve in tears, drop the egg, and run to his or her room - the Border Collie never will. And in fact the Border Collie will love it and beg you to do it every day. That is the heart of a Border Collie. Here's a quote that is on the splash page of the US Border Collie Club site: "People often wonder just what trainers give the sheepdog in exchange for its boundless willingness. Food treats and praise sit on the trainer's shelf, untouched, unused. The sheepdog is shown its possibilities, he learns what life is like for a good dog and is invited to walk in a rational world whose farthest boundaries are defined by grace." That is all a Border Collies needs. He needs to be needed. All of the above balance of temperament, by the way, is what made working Border Collies a favorite not just among livestock workers, but also obedience trainers, SAR trainers, even sled-dog trainers and hunters. Many people also enjoyed them as active companions in homes as diverse as country estates and Manhattan lofts. 2. What do you love about this breed? And hate? I love the heart of the breed. I can trust my life to my young dog, and have a few times already. I can tell you what exactly made me all in love with the breed. It's that moment when I ask my dog to get sheep that are a quarter of a mile away, and my dog hurls himself away from my feet, his head flung up with joy and his mouth wide. I can almost see his heart thundering away in front of him and hear it beating in time to his whirling feet. There's nothing like it in the world. I'm not really a hater, but the only thing that somewhat clashes with my lifestyle, is that I'm not a really consistent trainer, and routine and expectations are what this breed thrive on. It's more frustrating to my dogs than me, though. I keep myself honest by continuing with formal lessons no matter what level I'm at. 3. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with other pets in the home - dogs, cats, small pets, etc? Border Collies are a breed with a tremendously wide variety of motivations and characteristics. They are also very, very sensitive to suggestion. So a dog that is fine with cats in one home, may jump rapidly to being predatory with cats in another home if their human housemates are at all amused by any stalking or obsessive behavior. And then there are dogs who in spite of all efforts to train otherwise, grow up intensely predatory towards cats or other small pets. I always tell people who simply must have a dog that's guaranteed not to harm other pets in the home, to get an adult and make sure they don't encourage any emerging behavior. Adults can be purchased as retired or "failed" sheepdogs from breeders/trainers, or of course there are many, many dogs in rescue who need homes desperately and have been pre-screened for exactly these things. 4. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with children? I've had dogs that were wonderful and dogs that were so intensely aggressive that they had to be euthanized (I do rescue). The latter is not common, but it's devastating when it happens. Border Collies have terrible potential to do harm when they go wrong. They are mentally quick, have a tendency to make very odd associations and change them slightly (so something fine one day may be a trigger another day), and they are physically quick. They also don't chomp and apologize generally. They slash and then repeat until someone interferes. Finally, there may be perfectly benign reasons a dog starts biting children - simply as an attempt to control movement. It still does damage, however. I cannot recommend that a family with young children start with a purebred Border Collie puppy. If there's a strong desire to bring a Border Collie into the home, it's far, far better to go for a rescue that's been evaluated for suitability with children. 5. What do you see as the main problems with or threats to the breed today? We are very close to a point where improper breeding will shift the Border Collie breed from the one I described above in the first question, to a breed without that working patience and heart. Even though working breeding produces more than enough dogs to fill serious agility, flyball, obedience, rally, disc, companion, and yes even conformation home out there - all of these interests are now breeding specialized lines of their own. The problem is that for most of these general sports, a top Border Collie is also the top of the SPORT. So the temptation to breed only for the purpose of that sport, is very great, in spite of the fact that just a few years ago most of those people understood that it was working breeding which produced and maintained the mental and physical balance of the breed. That balance, ironically, which made the breed perfect for all those pursuits (with the exception of the show ring). Now in the few short years that non-working breeding has become widespread, I'm already seeing dogs that lack basic characteristics that make these dogs livable, in my belief. I see a lot of the physical soundness disintegrating for the same reason. Border Collies are put together for some of the greatest feats of athleticism in the dog world. Here is a dog stopping a sheep during an exercise at the end of one of our big competitions - this dog has already been running full out for about thirty minutes on steep hills. The dog must convince the sheep it can't escape but isn't allowed to touch it - so he rises up in her face and holds this until the sheep "gives" - in the last frame the feet are positioned to drop straight down and the sheep is turning toward the camera just slightly. The dog then twists to "give" - to reward the sheep for doing what the dog asked it to. http://www.meekersheepdog.com/images/50647...eekerseries.jpg This image is copyrighted to C Denise Wall. I'd recommend contacting her. She has TONS of wonderful pictures of Border Collies working sheep. 6. What is the usual lifespan of the breed? Many dogs can still put in a day's work at ten or eleven years' old. Many live well into their teens. I'd say the average is around 13.5 though. Just a guesstimate. Mark Billadeau of the ABCA Health and Genetics Committee would probably know. 7. Where do you think the breed currently excels, and where is improvement needed? The Border Collie is still the go-to dog for livestock workers. I think we need to return to an emphasis on a dog that is more of a "self starter" - easy for anyone to get started working, so that we get more livestock managers who realize the improvement good stockdogs can make, to the efficiency and humane management of their operations. With the addition of livestock dogs, more livestock operations can go back to using open grazing, pasture, grass management, and sustainable farming. In order to do that, we need to have the talented dogs available for farmers and ranchers. If they get a notion to use a dog, and it's poorly bred or unsound in mind or body, then they will never try it again. Farmers and ranchers are impatient of the waste of time. 8. I understand from my preliminary research that there is some controversy regarding the show-bred Border Collie and the working Border Collie, and that there are several BC registries, some of which do not permit dogs to be shown in conformation. I would be grateful if you could give me a short overview of this situation, and your opinion regarding this apparent split in the breed. I'm sure you'll get the complete rundown on this. There's three parts to your question: What are all these registries and how to do they interact? ISDS: The mothership, where the Border Collie was born and which still manages and oversees the breed for all working registries in the world. They do this by running a series of herding competitions in the UK, which are the original competitions that produced the breed and still define it (ie, a Border Collie is a dog which is, in theory, capable of doing the exercises on an ISDS trial course). They don't require a working test but most people look for high performers in the trials to spice up pedigrees. ISDS dogs are frequently imported here and all over the world in fact. You cannot register a conformation dog with ISDS. You can, however, register, in theory, any breed that meets the trial exercise test, plus some health tests, with the ISDS. There are a few Bearded Collies that are ISDS registered. ABCA: The current main North American registry. And I do mean "main", as in, most Border Collies are ABCA registered by FAR. Most Border Collie owners/breeders/trainers are still adamantly against conformation and agree with the ABCA's mission to maintain and improve the working stockdog. The ABCA and the ISDS have a reciprocal registration agreement as they share breeding philosophies. You cannot register a dog, or maintain registration on a dog, which has finished a conformation Championship, with the ABCA. YOu also cannot register any dog that is registered with a conformation registry, although I think you can apply to register such dogs on merit (which means you can apply to have the dog accepted based on working ability, not ROM like in the AKC). NASD, AIBC: These are older registries which succumbed to various political problems and inefficencies. They are gaining in popularity again slightly, because they have no rule about dual registering dogs competing in conformation. USBCC: This is North America's oldest breed club, dating to 1986. They took the lead in the negotiations with the AKC when the move was first afoot to bump the Border Collie up from Misc up to full "membership". More later. You can read all about them at bordercollie.org USBCHA: Completes the working Border Collie "trifecta" of ABCA/USBCC/USBCHA. IT is the organization which runs our ISDS style trials. The USBCHA is truly and completely open, however - anyone, literally anyone with any breed of dog, registry, whatever, can run at a USBCHA trial. They only crown one open sheep and one nursery sheep, and one cattle and one nursery champion each year - no other titles are offered. BCSA: This is the breed club which "won out" during the Border Collie wars, to represent AKC registered Border Collies. There's a couple general stockdog registries and there's a couple of line-only registries too (such as the McCallum cowdog registry). I'm sure that's TMI. Second Question: What's the deal with with the AKC versus not-AKC politics? This is currently the best quickie summary out there. It's sadly out of date - the BEST rundown of the situation is, again, Don McCaig's book _The Dog Wars_. Really, if you are to do any justice to this topic, I'd suggest going with this volume rather than anecdotal information. Here's the link to a summary that was written at the time that the AKC finalized the move. http://www.bordercollie.org/akc.html Finally, is there a split and if so what can be done about it? There is no doubt about the split. When the "acceptance" of the Border Collie became immanent, breeders who wanted to get on the "Ground floor" of the "new breed" began to import many dogs from New Zealand and Australia, where the breed has been a separate and almost strictly a ring breed for dozens of dog generations. Physically, genetically, temperamentally, these dogs are an entirely different breed. These dogs exhibited characteristics that won classes - not because they were so perfectly representative of the standard, but because they had characteristics judges (at the time not well informed about the "new" breed) liked. Angulation, perfectly level toplines, super straight fronts, sweet expressions, attractive rounded heads/faces, perfectly parallel, reaching gaits. The imported dogs had smooth coats bred out for no reason at all, reducing the gene pool randomly with no reference to what that did to working ability. Border Collies almost never trot at their work. They lope, or slink, or walk (rarely), but not trot. These dogs were bred to look good at a gait never used by working, American type Border Collies. Working Border Collies also have a singularly disturbing expression, habitually. It's something that has not won the hearts of judges in the ring, anywhere. So now breeders who went with AKC had a choice. Hold the line on keeping their genetics true to the original practices of the breed, to breed without reference to physical appearance. Or drift over to the trend being set by the imported dogs - culling dogs that had scary expressions, toplines down in front, smooth coats (that's about 30% of the working population), any color but black and white with no tan (another 50% of the population gone), and any characteristic that interfered with a showy gait, no matter if the dog were ten years old and still doing two hours of work a day. The AKC puts a lot of pressure on breeders to conform, even if they don't compete in the ring. I've heard a lot of talk about "upgrading" agility/obedience/whatever dogs with imported stock, in hopes of at least getting points on a dog or finishing that Ch. So the pressure in the AKC is towards the imported dog type. Outside of the AKC it's all very fuzzy and mucky. It's not just one split, but almost as many divergences as there are pursuits with Border Collies. As I mentioned, people who do sports with Border Collies tend to have a shot at the very top. When they make it, it's natural for people to want a piece of the action. You'll hear a lot more on this from other people. I'd strongly encourage you to get the Don McCaig book though. _Dog Wars_ 9. Can you recommend any other owners, breeders, or exhibitors that I could contact for further information? I would very much like to obtain opinions and stories from a broad cross-section of owners. I've posted this questionaire on the Border collie Boards, if you don't mind. There's thousands of member with interests that range from hard core livestock managers and trial dog trainers, down to teenagers who just purchased their first Border Collie puppy ever - conformation people (though admittedly embattled and scarce), agility/obedience/rally/disc dog/flyball, SAR, tracking, backpacking - and in fact it's an international community with members on every populated continent. Feel free to go check out the Boards yourself: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php Anyone is welcome! These videos of training a young Border Collie might be helpful. They are, again, by Denise Wall. Definitely you might want to get in touch with her. She's also been on the board of the ABCA and the Health and Genetics committee. http://www.vimeo.com/2096540 http://www.vimeo.com/2411655 Finding information on history, grooming, etc, is not difficult, but I particularly need some personal anecdotes, stories, and observations that illustrate unique points of the breed's character, particularly those naming specific dogs. I have to mention my first purebred Border Collie, Ben. I recently lost Ben to cancer. He was a perfect example of that heart, and balance, I'm talking about. ******Lots of sentimental blah-blah about Ben here****** But it wasn't just the rough and tumble stuff. Ben could read my mind. I could speak in complete sentences to Ben, from the first I met him as a five month old rescue dog. He never slept in the bed - he hated soft hot surfaces - but if I felt badly he'd crawl up with me. I never had to teach him to be gentle with lambs. Ben was never more distressed during lambing, than when a lamb would start following him around, and he'd "lose" the mother because he had so much power over sheep that they'd come nowhere near him - even to get their lambs. He knew it was wrong but didn't know how to fix it - if he tried to bring the lamb back to Mom, the mama would run off before the lamb saw her. Finally he figured out to bring the lost lambs to me. Ben's job at mealtimes was to collect all the food bowls. He liked nothing better than a job, no matter how meaningless it might have seemed to outsiders. He had to sleep in the same place from the time he was a pup, until the night he went to the hospital the last time. He was a gorgeous dog and had such a sense of dignity. http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=QLatNS...RYpmOCDkg%3D%3D Ben was almost thirteen in this picture. Nobody could ever believe how old he was. But Border Collie people get that a lot. http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=QLatNS...wA7DLKP5A%3D%3D And then he'd do this: http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=QLatNS...9BBMApd8g%3D%3D http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=QLatNS...N9MsP8voQ%3D%3D A friend of mine said Ben had "talking eyes." http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=QLatNS...4gyGaVWCg%3D%3D http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=QLatNS...M63nbgUvw%3D%3D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 1. What is the temperament of the breed? Lively, biddable, interested in just about everything. Specifics vary from dog to dog. Some are friendly to all at all times, others are more reserved with people. Some have a more "even" temperament, and some are easily stimulated or agitated. 2. What do you love about this breed? And hate? I love the Border Collie spirit. The willingness to try just about anything and to give 100% in the trying. I enjoy the intelligence of these dogs - even when they use it in ways that would probably annoy many other people! My Border Collies give back double what I give to them in attention, focus, and willingness to do the things that I enjoy with them. I especially enjoy the creativity of the Border Collie. I do Musical Freestyle with one of my Border Collies and he takes an active part in creating moves and designing routines. Where my other dogs have an attitude of "tell me what to do and make it worth my while", my Border Collies are always more like, "Will this work? How 'bout this?" I enjoy this trait especially. There is nothing that I hate about the Border Collie. 3. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with other pets in the home - dogs, cats, small pets, etc? My experience with this has been good. My oldest Border Collie mixes very well with all other dogs in the house - two mutts and another Border Collie. My youngest is a bit of a control freak with the other dogs and I have had to teach him certain manners regarding the other dogs, but all in all both of my Border Collies have thrived as part of a group of dogs and they get along very well with them. We do not have cats or pets other than dogs. 4. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with children? My oldest Border Collie is agitated by certain children. He does very well around calm children, but children who screech, stomp, or are disruptive overstimulate him and get his dander up. He has never had a bad experience with any child. I do not let children, other than exceptionally well behaved children under careful supervision, interact with him. He might be just fine, but I've never considered it worth it to try. My youngest Border Collie adores children, loves all over them, and is very appropriate with them. 5. What do you see as the main problems with or threats to the breed today? Irresponsible breeding is producing Border Collies of lesser quality - in many regards. In addition, from what I see, the general public does not have a very good understanding of the unique attributes of this particular breed and they are too frequently purchased from less than responsible breeders into inappropriate living situations. Also, misconceptions about the breed threaten the breed. 6. What is the usual lifespan of the breed? 12 - 15 years seems to be the norm. 7. Where do you think the breed currently excels, and where is improvement needed? Of course Border Collies excel as stockdogs, but since I do not work with livestock and have no personal experience with this, I will leave it for others to comment. Border Collies certainly excel as sport partners (Agility, Rally Obedience, Freestyle Dance, Frisbee, Flyball, etc), but I say this with a very critical reservation. Many Border Collies excel as sport partners. Generally, they are exceptionally agile, fast, and strong. Add in an innate desire to tune in to the handler, and often the Border Collie can excel in most dog sports and be a dream partner. BUT . . . Border Collies who lack a solid temperament can be an absolute nightmare as sport partners. Border Collies who are pathologically fearful, noise phobic, highly reactive, too easily stimulated, or even have obsessive handler focus can take years to condition and train into appropriate sport partners. Some people enjoy this challenge and have what it takes to be successful at it. But many others cannot, or will not undertake such a difficult task. Some see Border Collies as "point and shoot" sport dogs. That may be true for some, but not for most. Border Collies need good training to excel at sports, just like all other dogs do. The pace at which the training progresses can be notably faster with a particularly biddable and balanced Border Collie, but these dogs do not come knowing the skills or rules of any sport. They must be taught, and often the handler must get creative and work outside the box to do this successfully. I would really say that improvement is needed in the overall awareness of those who wish to get a Border Collie. An owner/handler who is looking for a Border Collie to do sports with needs to understand that he or she could end up with the dream dog of a lifetime, or with a dog that will not be appropriate to the sport of choice - or may need a great deal of work to get to that point. For some dogs this will not even be possible. I think it is also important for a potential Border Collie owner to understand the history of the Border Collie and know the difference between the working bred Border Collies, the sport bred Border Collies, and the conformation bred Border Collies, and make an as educated a choice as possible when purchasing or, where applicable, choosing a rescue Border Collie as a sport partner. 8. I understand from my preliminary research that there is some controversy regarding the show-bred Border Collie and the working Border Collie, and that there are several BC registries, some of which do not permit dogs to be shown in conformation. I would be grateful if you could give me a short overview of this situation, and your opinion regarding this apparent split in the breed. I will leave it to others to give the history and details of the split. My opinion is that it is truly a sad thing. I hate to see Border Collies losing the distinctive qualities that make them the exceptional dogs that they are. And it is just as much of a shame to see Border Collie people divided and at odds with one another. I doubt that an "official" split with a name change on any side of the argument will ever happen, though. I see more of a distinction developing between "types" of Border Collies developing, just as there are "types" of other breeds. Finding information on history, grooming, etc, is not difficult, but I particularly need some personal anecdotes, stories, and observations that illustrate unique points of the breed's character, particularly those naming specific dogs. You are welcome to read through my blog at: http://www.xanga.com/DeantheBorderCollie for anecdotes, pictures, etc. If you scroll to the original entries, you can read about the adoption and early training of our youngest Border Collie. It was quite an adventure. He was almost completely untrained and very wild, and I transformed him into a good citizen and sport dog through reward based training methods. If you wish to publish anything from the blog, I will be happy to grant copyright permission. - Your job title Let me know by email if you wish to publish anything and need this info. Email at: bordercolliester@gmail.com - Any degrees you hold BA, Chemistry, MA, Theology, Specialization Catechetics - Your affiliations in the Border Collie world and general dog world (positions and/or memberships in breed clubs and all-breed clubs) Instructor, Fieldwood Dog Training Center, Carlisle, Pennsylvania Instructor for: Control Unleashed, Introduction to Agility, Introduction to Clicker Training - Number of years you have been in the breed Seven Years - Your full mailing address - Your phone number Please email at bordercolliester@gmail.com for this information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 So, Becca, do we need to email our responses or is posting them here suitable? Kristine - Do you work with Sue Asten? Or am I confusing Fieldwood with another training facility where she works (or worked)? If you do, small world! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 So, Becca, do we need to email our responses or is posting them here suitable? I was wondering that, too! Kristine - Do you work with Sue Asten? Or am I confusing Fieldwood with another training facility where she works (or worked)? If you do, small world! It's the same place. I know Sue - she's super nice. She still teaches there, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 OT - Terrific that you know Sue, also! She is one of the nicest people, and her friends are also nice (so that means you, too). Once when I visited with Sue to work dogs, she had a youngster in a class and I got to enjoy watching dogs and folks that I did not know, learn together. It was very enjoyable and educational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 I'll respond as well as someone who is considerably new to the breed and rescue. 1. What is the temperament of the breed? From what I have seen with my own dogs and my foster dogs in rescue, Border Collie's crave a partnership. They do not just want to be in your life, they want to be an active part of it. They love to communicate. Nothing seems to light them up like understanding what you would like from them. Border Collies live for their relationship with you. They also love routine. 2. What do you love about this breed? And hate? I love working with Border Collies. I love teaching them new things, and I am always amazed at how it is possible to create such clear communication that both dog and person can anticipate and respond to the other so quickly. My dislike is not breed specific. I dislike that people often forget that smart dogs are dogs. A smart dog does not know what human society expects of them, they know what their owner expects of them. 3. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with other pets in the home - dogs, cats, small pets, etc? It depends on the dog. My female thinks that cats are toys, and I have a foster who would love to just sit and snuggle a kitty all day. 4. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with children? It depends on the dog. I have a Border Collie that thinks kids are the best thing in the world and another who thinks they need to be corrected constantly. However, even the Border Collie who is iffy currently around children I am confident will be fine if my husband and I decide to have children of our own. He will be fine with his "own children," and he will be around them constantly so the oddity of noisy little people will become for him quite common. 5. What do you see as the main problems with or threats to the breed today? One problem I see is that Border Collies are being bred for things other than herding ability. I do not believe that all Border Collies should live a life of herding on a farm, but I do believe that breeding for herding is quintessentail for the breed. Breeding for herding is what gave us the dogs that we love. When you change a dog's mission (ie... purpose for work with people) you change the dog. 6. What is the usual lifespan of the breed? I would say early to mid teens. 7. Where do you think the breed currently excels, and where is improvement needed? The breed excels in working with people and being adaptive with their people in various activities. Border Collies are great at herding various live stock, agility, SAR, flyball, assistance dogs, therapy dogs, personal companions, obedience, disc dogs, free style dancing, almost anything that envolves you. Improvement is needed in tightening breeding standards of health and herding ability. I work in rescue and there are too many pups being produced for candy colors and because they are cute rather than because their sire and dam have the great temperment, health, skill, and bidability that should be passed on to the next generation of pups. 8. I understand from my preliminary research that there is some controversy regarding the show-bred Border Collie and the working Border Collie, and that there are several BC registries, some of which do not permit dogs to be shown in conformation. I would be grateful if you could give me a short overview of this situation, and your opinion regarding this apparent split in the breed. I think my opinion is pretty clear, and I am sure you will get much better and thorough explanations from those who have much more experience than myself. 9. Can you recommend any other owners, breeders, or exhibitors that I could contact for further information? I would very much like to obtain opinions and stories from a broad cross-section of owners. I would suggest you contact some Border Collie Rescue's and some agility clubs to get their take as well. Finding information on history, grooming, etc, is not difficult, but I particularly need some personal anecdotes, stories, and observations that illustrate unique points of the breed's character, particularly those naming specific dogs. I would be most grateful if you could supply any. Dog World loves these in their Meet The Breed features! Finally, I would need the following information from you: - Your job title: Insurance and Investment Sales - Any degrees you hold BA in History - Your affiliations in the Border Collie world and general dog world (positions and/or memberships in breed clubs and all-breed clubs) My husband and I are the volunteer coordinators for the local Border Collie Rescue & my opinions are soley mine and cannot be assumed to be the feelings of any of the other volunteers in the rescue. We have started agility with one of our Border Collies, we have done obedience classes and we will be hopefully joining a disc dog club as well in the near future. We have aspirations for herding lessons as well. - Number of years you have been in the breed 3 - Your full mailing address You can email me at btterflii@msn.com for that info. - Your phone number. You can email me at btterflii@msn.com for that info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 After reading through the replies to this request (I haven't since I don't feel I could add anything really substantive), I think it would be great to add them as a sticky for a sort of "Coles Notes" reference for novice border collie owners. It covers aspects of the border collie's history, its abilities, short-comings, etc from several peoples' points of view, some with farms, others in cities, and several involved in rescue. Great resource! Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 I did let her know about this thread, but when you answer here, it might be good to also email her directly (address at end of first post) and let her know that there's a new post here. Probably with the deadline being the 7th she's very busy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 4. What is your experience on the interaction of the Border Collie with children? It depends on the dog. I have a Border Collie that thinks kids are the best thing in the world and another who thinks they need to be corrected constantly. However, even the Border Collie who is iffy currently around children I am confident will be fine if my husband and I decide to have children of our own. He will be fine with his "own children," and he will be around them constantly so the oddity of noisy little people will become for him quite common. Just a story on this...we were worried that our rather intense Border Collie (who worshiped my wife) would be jealous or upset by the birth of our youngest daughter. We watched her like a hawk! However, Leila seemed to know from the first that Faith was the child of her Deity. She would spent uncounted hours watching Faith. Since she 'knew' she couldn't nip to herd Faith, she would try to block her crawling body with her own. If she REALLY thought the baby was crawling where she shouldn't go, she would lie down on top of Faith and call for backup. Of course, that is a sample size of one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I tried sending the link to this webpage in an email since I was having issues copying and pasting (fast new computer and slow old me) my "contribution" but got a message back that it had failed to go through. I wonder if anyone else has had a problem or if it's just me? Anyway, if she doesn't check here, that's it for my opus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Becca, do you know anything about the author or "Dog World's" policies regarding articles, for example, are they geared toward AKC and do they have a guideline of if-you-haven't-seen-the-approach-here-before-you-can-bet-you-won't-be-seeing-it-in-the-future? I'm thinking of filling in the form if the large number of people avoiding AKC registration for border collies actually appears in print. My take on "Dog World" is that both writers and readers think it's, erhmm, neat borders herd. In a similar vein, I also have a sinking feeling that the author will have pictures of some barbies or sport bred working three sheep in a round pen or running an AKC course, some show champions, and action shots of agility with all given equal weight as though those activities sum up the breed or are beneficial to its future. While I think responding may be a good idea, I'm not yet convinced. Any thoughts? Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Becca, do you know anything about the author or "Dog World's" policies regarding articles, for example, are they geared toward AKC and do they have a guideline of if-you-haven't-seen-the-approach-here-before-you-can-bet-you-won't-be-seeing-it-in-the-future? I'm thinking of filling in the form if the large number of people avoiding AKC registration for border collies actually appears in print. My take on "Dog World" is that both writers and readers think it's, erhmm, neat borders herd. In a similar vein, I also have a sinking feeling that the author will have pictures of some barbies or sport bred working three sheep in a round pen or running an AKC course, some show champions, and action shots of agility with all given equal weight as though those activities sum up the breed or are beneficial to its future. While I think responding may be a good idea, I'm not yet convinced. Any thoughts? Penny I'm not Becca and I am not associated with Dog World, but I feel like regardless of how AKC-centered this magazine is, both writers and readers, we have an opportunity to educate and if it touches base with just a handful of people, isn't that better then not getting the information out there? Also, I feel as if the questions that focus on the different registrations and the different "types" of breeding will be the most educational and if it even just opens someone's eyes a little wider, it's helping the breed. That's just my opinion I could be way off base! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I feel like the more they hear from people who really use Border Collies the way they were intended, who understand the context behind their breeding, the more the article will be balanced. This isn't Stockdog Journal or Working Border Collies so I do expect they'll present "both sides" but it's better, I feel, than an entire article of "Borders are neat dogs that used to herd." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllieMackie Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 8. I understand from my preliminary research that there is some controversy regarding the show-bred Border Collie and the working Border Collie, and that there are several BC registries, some of which do not permit dogs to be shown in conformation. I would be grateful if you could give me a short overview of this situation, and your opinion regarding this apparent split in the breed. There are no Border Collie registries that do not permit dogs to be shown in conformation. People who work Border Collies tend to dislike being told what to do, and therefore tend to avoid telling other people what they should and should not do with their dogs. The American Border Collie Association will deregister any dog that attains an AKC championship, because of what that says about the owner's priorities, but that is not the same thing. There are a number of working Border Collie folks who would prefer that conformation showing were prohibited, and that dual registration (AKC/ABCA) be prohibited, but the ABCA has not implemented such rules. Just clarifying, the CBCA regulations are slightly different. From the website: "As border collies should only be bred for their working ability breeding for appearance is strongly discouraged. Participation with border collies in conformation events is seen as contrary to the objectives of the Association and will void membership." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Penny, I've responded to a number of requests of this kind. Generally I'm disappointed by the slant of the final article, or how the parts of what I say that I consider most important don't make it in, but I still think it's better to have some of the traditional border collie point of view expressed than none. Dog World published a piece on recognition back in 1995. It included a fair amount of good input from Jon Apogee and some from the ABCA, but it also included--unanswered--a lot of specious stuff from the AKC side, and ended on the usual "Can't we all just get along?" note. It was pretty poor, but without the Apogee/ABCA input it would have certainly been worse. It was definitely inferior to the relatively balanced Dog Fancy breed profile type article the previous year by a more savvy writer (to which Nancy Starkey of these Boards contributed extensively, BTW, as well as Apogee and others), so just because the publication may have an all-breed AKCish orientation doesn't necessarily mean there's no hope for a degree of balance and accuracy. You're probably right about what the final product will be, but this is yet a different writer, and ya never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Hello Everyone, Dog World published a piece on recognition back in 1995. It included a fair amount of good input from Jon Apogee and some from the ABCA, but it also included--unanswered--a lot of specious stuff from the AKC side, and ended on the usual "Can't we all just get along?" note. It was pretty poor, but without the Apogee/ABCA input it would have certainly been worse. It was definitely inferior to the relatively balanced Dog Fancy breed profile type article the previous year by a more savvy writer (to which Nancy Starkey of these Boards contributed extensively, BTW, as well as Apogee and others), so just because the publication may have an all-breed AKCish orientation doesn't necessarily mean there's no hope for a degree of balance and accuracy. In reading the latest posts in this thread, I was rather surprised to see my name mentioned! However, I do appreciate Eileen's reference to my contribution to a magazine article written so long ago. Even though I have had Border Collies since 1971, I feel that I did not begin to truly understand the breed until we (my dogs and I) started working sheep in 1990. That was almost twenty years ago, and it seems the more I learn about these incredible dogs, the more I realize I have yet to learn. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread, as it has presented some incredibly insightful information about our wonderful Border Collies. Regards to all, nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I answered questions 5 & 8. Then I recommended the writer, who apparently lives in Alberta, contact Stormy Winters. Nothing like a chat with Stormy to broaden the old cross section. I also mentioned Zoerbs and Scott Glen. Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I'll bet Stormy would enjoy answering the writers questions. I'll bet he could add some VERY INTERESTING content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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