Idle curiosity about cloning working dogs

[Pippin's person]

I was reading an article in the paper about cloning dogs this morning and it got me to wondering if you folks with really great working dogs would consider cloning them if it were financially feasible.

 

My gut reaction to the article is that I wouldn't do this even if I had a great dog--there's something appealing to me about the luck of the draw approach. But, maybe I'd feel differently if my livelihood depended on or was significantly enhanced by a great dog. Obviously, the clone is never the original, but if so much of the working ability is some ineffable mix of genetics AND one is a capable handler, maybe this would be something useful.

 

Your thoughts?

[Liz P]

If it was cheap I might do it in order to experiment with different methods for raising and training sheepdogs. I am curious how much of a dog is really nature vs nurture. I would not do it expecting to get my old dog back.

[juliepoudrier]

The one advantage I could see, assuming the cost were reasonable, would be in the case of dogs whose lines might no longer exist. For example, I went looking for a dog bred like one I have, only to find out from the main breeder of that line that the line no longer existed because he sold many of the dogs into farm homes that didn't continue breeding from the line. This same person noted that some of the best dogs he ever had were in that line. So I could see some value in resurrecting good lines of workng dogs that might otherwise be lost (the genetics, that is). And in fact, it's funny you should ask this question because I was thinking about it just today WRT to the dog I have whose lines I'd like to keep (i.e., from whose lines I'd love to have another dog).

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

I had a friend talk to the Canine Cryobank some years ago about cloning. She said that the DNA would be the same, but if you didn't repeat the exact same environmental stuff--exposure to the same people, stock, etc. in *exactly* the same way, you really wouldn't end up with the *same* dog. Seemed like a reasonable answer,

 

A

[juliepoudrier]

I think it would be pretty much a given that even if you did everything exactly the same you could easily end up with a dog that wasn't the exact same as the one you cloned. That's why I think it would be more important for the purpose of saving lines vs. recreating individual dogs.

 

J.

[Smokjbc]

I am afraid that cloning "great" dogs (or horses, or other animals really), if it became more popular, would hurt working dogs. I do not see alot of value in looking to the past, I think breeding forward is the smarter way to go. Perhaps if a line was truly valuable and in danger of being lost, I could understand- but if the line was that great- why has it gone into a decline or become unavailable?

[juliepoudrier]

Jaime,

I wasn't actually making an argument for cloning, but for example, there are sheep breeds in this country that have been changed drastically (thanks to show ring fashion) over time. If there were a reasonable way to reach back for some of the older genetics for those breeders who have uses for the "originals" of the breed, I don't think it would be a bad thing. With working dogs, there could be similar reasons--including going out of fashion, or the breeder passing on, or just bad luck. I would never take Fluffy and have her cloned looking for another just like her, but if I thought that an infusion of older genetics in any livestock or dogs could be of benefit, then I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

 

I'm viewing cloning not as a means to produce a bunch of clones of an individual but rather to produce one clone that could then be included in a breeding program so that the individual's genetics wouldn't be lost. I just can't envision a bunch of folks rushing out to get their Wiston Cap, or Wisp, or Nan clones, but maybe my head's in the sand. Or maybe I just have a different perspective as someone who raises rare breeds and can see the possibilities where cloning could help a breeding program. I don't have a stake either way, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the possibility of cloning either.

 

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

I know virtually nothing about cloning, and frankly, the thought of it just creeps me out in some ways, though Im sure it could have it benifits, but I was under the impression that cloning was firstly to create an identicle, in appearence?

[Smokjbc]

Jaime,

I wasn't actually making an argument for cloning, but for example, there are sheep breeds in this country that have been changed drastically (thanks to show ring fashion) over time. If there were a reasonable way to reach back for some of the older genetics for those breeders who have uses for the "originals" of the breed, I don't think it would be a bad thing. With working dogs, there could be similar reasons--including going out of fashion, or the breeder passing on, or just bad luck. I would never take Fluffy and have her cloned looking for another just like her, but if I thought that an infusion of older genetics in any livestock or dogs could be of benefit, then I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. >>julie

 

Those are good points- I would hope that it would not be a rush to reproduce the great dogs, just as a salvage procedure. I had not really thought of breeds that had been ruined or lost. I do have a prejudice against it, it seems to me to be a Pandora's box that is impossible to see all the implications in the future. Right now it is so cost-prohibitive, that is it's own regulation, but if our breed does go down that road, I'd like to see some pretty strong oversight or a ironclad(and I HATE to borrow the fancy term) code of ethics about it.

[juliepoudrier]

Yeah, that was my thinking: that cloning could be a useful tool for reclamation and the like, if it could be used in a logical and careful way vs. trying to recreate the "greats." And as you note that's not a big problem now because of the cost, but if it ever became affordable I could also see a whole host of problems arising. It's sad, really, because it could have some very real value.

 

J.

[sjones]

I often wonder if my first bc Annie, who will be turning 11 at the end of the month, would have turned out differently had she not been my first bc to train. She was tough for a newbie to start with. Now that I have had some experience I wonder if I could have had more success with her on the trial field. Its an intreging thought but one I could never do, just way too creepy. Plus as others have mentioned it would be impossible to set up the same environment and experiences, so you wouldn't have the same dog.

 

Samantha

[stockdogranch]

I often wonder if my first bc Annie, who will be turning 11 at the end of the month, would have turned out differently had she not been my first bc to train.

 

Of course she would have. But you had the experiences you had for a reason, and that's to get you where you are NOW. So her part in this whole picture was to help you on your journey.

 

I really do need to go feed dogs now--I'm getting way too philosophical tonight,

 

A