Our border collie pup is dying....

[Bill Fosher]

Properly-handled and reputably-produced parvo vaccines work just fine. Testing on the vaccine I use proves that eighty precent of pups are seropositive after the first vaccine.

 

When I was in school, 80 percent was a C+. I know, because like the current leader of the free world, I was a C+ student. I was never led to believe that C+ was "just fine." Given the fact that you're a vet, I assume you don't have a lot of experience with C pluses.

 

But I suppose vaccines usually get three chances to work. I usually only got to take a test once.

 

All silliness aside, there are lots of things that go wrong with vaccination programs. As you say, they must be properly handled and reputably produced. They must also be administered properly and in a timely fashion. The fact that 99.99 percent of puppies don't get Parvo is probably attributable in some measure to the vaccines, some measure to their own immune systems, and in some measure to plain old luck that they don't happen to get exposed when their passive immunity is too weak to prevent infection but strong enough to block the vaccine.

 

Vaccines are a way of reducing the risk of infection, not preventing it. Particularly during the critical window of time as passive immunity fades and as the vaccine- or exposure-induced immunity builds, young animals are very vulnerable.

 

We could assume that the breeder did everything perfectly, and that the OP did everything perfectly, and still come up with a scenario in which the puppy contracts parvo.

 

The question of "how do you socialize your puppy without risking exposure to parvo" has a very simple answer: unfortunately, you can't. Just as you can't send a child to daycare or school without risking exposure to mumps, head lice, the common cold, influenza, and a million other things. But we balance the benefits against the risks, do what we can to reduce the risks (vaccinations, sanitation, prompt treatment), and go ahead and live our lives.

 

I have a dog here that is nine years old. She spent the first 11 months of her life without socialization. There are five people in the world who don't turn her into a cowering mess. I really wish that the person who owned her for those first 11 months would have risked exposing her to parvo.

[Lenajo]

Health certificates do NOT require proof of distemper/parvo vaccine. It ONLY requires proof of rabies vaccine, AND THEN ONLY in animals that are past a certain age. Having a health certificate does NOT require that any vaccines have been given EXCEPT for rabies in age-appropriate animals

 

That may be the "rule" somewhere but I've shipped many dogs for rescue as well as my own dogs and no vet will fill out of the form without the distemper/parvo info blank filled in. That's not just in this state, but vets from at least 10 other states.

 

The airlines also look for the vaccine blanks to be filled in - Atlanta explained to me that was because if the dog was delayed they had to board it, and the kennel would not accept unvaccinated dogs.

 

Bill's post was spot on - thanks Bill!

 

I so far have a 100% home care survival rate. At about $75/pup. You can save a lot more dogs when you learn how to do things yourself. Essential with rescue groups, great for breeders. Any vet worth his salt will help you get the supplies and learn what you need. Not to mention you don't go into debt or need mental health help because your vet is too lazy to pick up a phone and call you. Fax me about my puppy that's critically ill...I'll show you where to stuff that fax! Sheesh!

[sweet_ceana]

I also have the "dog card"...that is the credit card I keep empty just for the worst case dog emergency.

I have one of these as well Some credit card company could make a lot of $$ marketing a health card to people and pet owners.

[BustopherJones]

Nepsa - How is the pup doing today?

[Nepsa]

Saving up for pet emergency is a GOOD idea. I'm going to start socking up money now for future emergencies.

 

She was exactly 24 weeks old when we got her. So she should have gotten that 3rd round of shot. The breeder told me she already did 2 rounds. What happened to the 3rd? I have been thinking back to when we got her. We did notice she had diarrhea when we got her. But we chalked it up to "newness/stress" being a new home and didn't think it was more than that. Then a week later she physically got worse by curling up and sleeping more than playing. So we took her to the vet and she was negative for parvo at the time. She came home a lot "better" and perky again after 2 days at the vet's. Her diarrhea was gone. We thought all is well..then 6 days later she crashes again with diarrhea and this time vomiting and a fever. We took her back to the vet's where she stayed since Saturday.

 

Here's a snippet of breeder's email to me.

 

I have never had a sick dog on my place, I cant imagine what you are going through. I stated she had 2 DHPP shots since 6 weeks. TWO>>>the second was at 10 weeks. Her vet check and health certificate were attached to her crate and were issued the day she left. If for some reason she had been sick, for sure she would have had some sort of a temperature. She was totally healthy.......never sick or didnt not eat a day in her life. If for some reason her vaccinations did not protect her from the virus, that is not my fault. The immunizations WERE GIVEN. You must have exposed her there, it can be picked up from the ground outside, on a walk, meeting new dogs etc.

 

Not sure if I had exposed her? Did I? She was 24 weeks at the time we got her and she already had diarrhea at the time we got her. Wasn't she supposed to get her 3rd round at 18 weeks? That's how it works here in Canada...does that apply in the states too? I didn't even receive the copy of her other 2 vaccinates if they were actually given. Just a copy of the rabies shot she got before flying out here and a DHHP booster. I would think maybe the vaccinces were faulty/no good if she did give it to them. I read that they do get parvo despite of shots they receive. That happens too.

 

Like I said; I thought her diarrhea was normal due to flying out to Canada; and stress level. But now I'm not sure.

 

We got another fax this morning from the vet and the GOOD NEWS is..she's now perky and he thinks if she keeps food down today..she may go home tmrw!!! I'm just SO HAPPY that she's going to be FINE now!! She's a fighter; survivor. I have been so worried sick about her. And she has been on our thoughts all day yesterday and today.

 

Going to ask the vet what food to give her to make it easy for her ingestion system plus I worry about the impact it may have cause her. The vet told us she will be small for her breed. But what about her longevity? Is that going to shorten her life span? I want her around for YEARS AND YEARS...to live a long good healthy life. At least 2009 will be a good year for us....that she's alive..that's all we want and this is the best "gift" we got. I'm now wondering how to keep her "calm" so she can physically heal from this nasty thing. How long should I keep her "quiet"; I don't want her to get sick again. Any measures; tell me since I want Asker better not back in ER again for 3rd time.

 

I'm working on bleaching everything around here..but wondering what to do with the cow hoofs that the dogs got for christmas...to chuck them or not?

[jvw]

I would chuck the cow hooves. Better safe than sorry.

 

Glad she is on the mend.

Jennifer

[mbc1963]

Good news! I hope she can come home quickly - it will be better for her mentally, and better for your wallet, that's for sure.

 

Cow hooves are cheap. I'd replace them. That's an easy fix.

 

I looked into the pet insurance options when I got Buddy, but realized that simply saving the money I'd be putting into the insurance payments would set me up pretty well for emergencies. So, I have one big "emergency fund" I save money to - that goes for car fixes, sewing up Buddy's chest when he impales himself on a stick, new washer/dryer (did I just jinx myself there?) and any other of those emergencies that pop u pin life.

 

Mary

[bc friend]

Glad to hear she's improving! Hopefully she'll be fully well soon and all the hassle will just be an unpleasant memory.

[Bo Peep]

So happy to hear she's on the mend. Can't wait until she's home. Hooves are cheap. Go get more.

[beachdogz]

We got another fax this morning from the vet and the GOOD NEWS is..she's now perky and he thinks if she keeps food down today..she may go home tmrw!!!

 

I'm working on bleaching everything around here..but wondering what to do with the cow hoofs that the dogs got for christmas...to chuck them or not?

 

Hooray! Good news

 

I'd clean EVERYTHING and start fresh...just for your own peace of mind.

[Root Beer]

I'm glad to hear that things are going better.

[juliepoudrier]

Wasn't she supposed to get her 3rd round at 18 weeks? That's how it works here in Canada...does that apply in the states too?

 

 

Nepsa,

As far as I know, the only vaccine that is legally required is the rabies vaccine. So no one--breeder or pet onwer--is under any obligation to vaccinate a pet for anything but rabies. There are folks who don't vaccinate at all, and others who vaccinate minimally (I fall into the latter category). For the only litter of pups I produced, I had the vet give two vaccines, at 8 and (after) 12 weeks. After that, the pups were/are considered protected for three years. Those pups are now 2 1/2 and quite healthy, and have been dragged all over the place to sheepdog trials.

 

As others have pointed out, the problem with a series of vaccines is that those given the earliest (like at 6 weeks) are likely partially or completely neutralized by the mother's own antibodies (and since it can't be predicted, that's why all sorts of disagreements arise about when and how often to vaccinate). It can be expected that vaccines given very early (5 or 6 weeks) are less likely to stimulate an immune response in a pup because of the presence of the mother's antibodies. Giving that first vaccine later gives a greater likelihood that the mother's antibodies are no longer protecting the puppy and so the vaccine is more likely to be effective. Given that, then a second (booster) vaccine should be all that's needed after the initial vaccine, if the booster is given after an age when it's generally accepted that the mother's antibodies are no longer a consideration (i.e., after 12 weeks). That's my long-winded way of saying that at least some vaccination protocols don't require a series of three puppy vaccines, and it's becoming more common to give just two puppy vaccines (plus rabies at a later date). You might want to read the thread titled "Concerned about overvaccination?" that is pinned at the top of the Health and Genetics section to better understand some of the theories behind vaccine protocols.

 

I am one who will choose to vaccinate my own dogs (although I didn't with the pups I mentioned, because I wanted a specific vaccine from the vet) and will also do home health care for them (like the sick elderly cat that I am right now treating with IV fluid therapy at home). While it's possible for vaccines to be mishandled and misused, I would imagine that most good breeders/owners would be careful with them because to do otherwise is just to throw your money away and risk the health of your animals, which could just come back to cost you more later.

 

There's no way to know or to prove if the diarrhea Asker had when she came to you was the first sign of parvo or simply stress or even the symptom of something completely unrelated. Speculating about where she may have come into contact with the disease is probably just draining energy that could be better used getting ready to take care of her when she comes home from the vet. I know nothing about the breeder you used and whether they are reputable, but certainly this can be a lesson about what to look for and ask about in the future (for anyone thinking about getting a pup and shipping it). This problem could be anyone's fault or no one's fault. At least it looks like Asker is going to recover.

 

J.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I slide one or two lesson payments from my students into a tin can each month. It adds up. This month it paid to have a lump removed from Tess's head. Last time, it paid for a major surgery. If I don't do the lesson money, then I pop $10 a week into the tin can....a couple of lattes. it adds up. Interestingly enough, the surgery always seem to equal the money in the time can!!

 

 

Diane

[BustopherJones]

Nepsa, Annie has a particularly sensitive digestive system. Our vet has her on prescription Royal Canin Intestinal HE (both kibble and canned); you might ask your vet whether this would be appropriate for your pup.

[Lenajo]

As Julie pointed out, trying to figure out the "why" at this point is well... pointless. The breeder apperas to have acted in a reasonable fashion, and for some reason the puppy did not convert immunity and/or was weak at precisely the right moment when she was exposed. Frankly since she was normal/negative when you checked her at the vet the first time for diarrhea (stress induced? another bug that wasn't parvo but causing enough stress to weakening her?) she could have caught it there. You will *never* know for sure. That's the only fact you can hang on too.

 

When you get your pups home go *slow* on bringing her back to regular solid food. My vet also has me put pups on a liquid colloidial vitamin (SeaSilver is our preferred) - a few cc twice a day. We also give B complex injections every week for a few weeks. For pups that have lost a lot of weight we use a product called SeaCure. That last one is expensive, and if not really needed can be skipped.

 

Discuss it with your vet anything you aren't sure of.

 

Before you know it that baby won't even remember being sick. But you will - so let this be a lesson learned about saving up for emergencies. No chastising from me on that one, just kind suggestion from someone who's been there.

 

edited to add - after a scare like that a picture of a healthy happy puppy would make everyone, including a breeder and some board members, feel really good. hint hint...

[Lewie'sMom]

Nepsa, so glad to read the your pup is doing much better.

 

What a wonderful way to start the new year!

 

And, what Lenajo said!

[Nepsa]

I agree on not to waste time trying to figure out why...not need to place blame. In my mindset..I'm trying to backtrack HOW THE HELL she got it in the first place so I can prevent this from happening again. So in a sense trying to make sure this never happens again. Where did I go wrong with Asker? I didn't socialize her that much. She basically rode in our van...and didn't really get out much other than walks in our home area. I was trying to keep her safe and socialize her at the same time.

 

Asker is our last pup. Our other pup is also 5 months old and updated on all her shots and is doing fine. We are watching her like a hawk though.

 

Threw out all the doggies cmas gifts....cow hooves etc, and washed the dog toys in washer with bleach added and their bedding in washer. Put bleach in a bottle with water and sprayed the carpet and everything she laid....and washed the floor with bleach and our shoes as well. We are wiped..but we will finish washing the porch with bleach/water which is hard since it's snowing hard outside and we are in for another snowstorm again. Our home smells like bleach and clean..but we are not even done yet and it's time to start dinner now. Spent the entire day bleaching everything.

 

Will talk to the vet about her food and a bit of good news. We placed an ad in the paper yesterday and sold most of our videos and freezer and got couple bags of pop/beer cans to take to the refund center and get money from it. So we will have most of the bill paid off..so all is good and we didn't go into debt out of this. So I'm happy for that..and lesson learned....going to start socking money for emergencies like this from now on.

 

We aren't allowed to touch her but can see her thru the window. At least she gets to go home tmrw. She keeps ripping out the IV so they gave up on the IV with her. She's keeping food down and she perked up to see my dh thru the window when she heard his voice. She doesn't look fully healed yet...she has a humififer in the room with her. We are thinking to get that as well..if that would help?

 

The vet told us to put her on Iams puppy food....I'm not fond of Iams due to the mass recalls and it has me nervous if it's safe now....but....vet said she has to take that brand since that's what she was getting at the breeder's.

[in2adventure]

I'm so happy she's doing better! I hope she gets to come home soon.

 

 

We aren't allowed to touch her but can see her thru the window. At least she gets to go home tmrw. She keeps ripping out the IV so they gave up on the IV with her. She's keeping food down and she perked up to see my dh thru the window when she heard his voice. She doesn't look fully healed yet...she has a humififer in the room with her. We are thinking to get that as well..if that would help?

 

The vet told us to put her on Iams puppy food....I'm not fond of Iams due to the mass recalls and it has me nervous if it's safe now....but....vet said she has to take that brand since that's what she was getting at the breeder's.

 

I don't understand the part about not letting you touch your dog. I had a pup with parvo many years ago. Shep/horse cross (he was HUGE ) The vet let me visit every day because he thought it would help him get better faster knowing Mom still loved him. He survived and I didn't spread it to every dog in the neighborhood. If you was your hands and change your clothes, it shouldn't be a big deal. A pup can pick up parvo by just walking into a vets office. I can't remember the last time I saw staff cleaning the waiting area everytime a dog walked through.

 

Also, I don't see why you have to feed Iams. Just because that's what the breeder used doesn't mean you have to keep using it. I would recommend a good, high quality food like Wellness, Merrick, Solid Gold, etc to get your girl back on her feet.

 

Good luck, I hope she's feeling her old self really soon!

[hsnrs]

That is such good news. Hope the pup gets to go home tomorrow. N

[phej]

Great news! Sending more healing thoughts your puppy's way!

[Nepsa]

Correction..I made a typo..got her from Michigan not Missouri. Sorry about that.

 

Anyway...we got a fax this am from the vet who told us that we can pick her up anytime today after 10am. I'm thrilled about that and can't wait to see her again; it's been 4 days now. Not happy that the vet won't let us visit her while she was in the vet hospital. At least she's coming home sooner.

 

She still has diarrhea but isn't vomiting and we are told to bring her back if her diarrhea keeps up till Saturday. So fingers crossed that it clears up before then.

[nancy]

Get a can of pumpkin. Not the pie filling, just plain filling. Give her a teaspoon of it. See it that helps.

 

Pumpkin has been great for Fergie's bouts of diarrhea. I separate the canful into those really small freezer things. But you could also put the pumpkin in an ice cube tray. That way you can thaw out enough for one or two spoon at a time. And the rest doesn't grow white fuzzy stuff.

 

And Fergie loves the taste of the pumpkin. Heck, I have to give Maggie the Cat a tiny bit, too. She also loves it.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Great news! congratulations!

 

I accidentally discovered the power of colostrum after Lynn's bout with parvo. It cleared up her persistant tummy trouble and flagging appetite and low spirits - almost instantly, after the first dose. Look for first milking, preferably from humanely kept cows.

 

Parvo primarily affects the gi, the lower gi in particular. Your biggest investment in the future is in focusing on healing her from the inside out. I'd really encourage you to look into home cooking for her. Lynn was also predicted to have stunted growth and all kinds of problems and we've never seen a thing other than a very slightly touchy tummy. It will take about three to six months to build up her digestive tract again, but it will be worth it.

 

I hate to say it but Iams would be an awful idea. At least look at a nice food in the easy to digest category - usually premium senior foods are this way - Eagle Pack, Canidae, California Natural, etc.