Border Collie-German Shepherds-mix?

[juliepoudrier]

Julie, this discussion was not about sickly or deformed, but perfectly healthy pups that somehow had been born with the "wrong" color. I do understand the desire to keep a breed to a certain standard, and the good intentions behind that thinking, but I disagree with the method of culling. Why can't those pups be spayed and not registered and sold as family pets? Is is too costly? Too bothersome? I guess I just don't understand why the dog is being punished. It didn't choose to be born different, it just happened.

 

I understand that the original discussion was about culling for color. I thought I even made it clear that I was trying to stay away from the color aspects of the discussion. It's when some poster(s) brought up the idea that culling for a genetic mutation was wrong that I felt compelled to weigh in with my opinion that culling for a genetic mutation isn't necessarily wrong. I was trying to point out that blanket statements like that are generally misguided. There are certainly cases where I believe culling for a genetic mutation is perfectly acceptable. In my mind if a color were generally associated with other internal defects that would affect quality of life of a pup or perhaps its ability to even reach adulthood then I could even see a case for culling for a color in that situation.

 

But what you said about purpose-bred dogs, wouldn't that mean that it is in fact really unimportant how the dog looks if it can do the job? Wouldn't that support not killing the mismarked pup?

 

If you go back and look at my very first post to this thread, that's exacty what I said, and without rechecking for my exact wording, I'll just paraphrase: If you're breeding for working ability of any sort then the only criterion for keep or don't keep (as in keep in the breeding population) is whether the animal works to the required standard, regardless of looks. The dogs who led to this discussion are probably a very poor example for this kind of discussion though because chances are they were not being bred to a working standard to begin with. From my own personal experience I can say that I am training up and trialing a white border collie. Most people wouldn't because of the prejudice (justified or not, can't say) against white dogs. But since the cross should have been a good one (stockwork-wise) I am giving him a chance to prove himself despite his color.

 

I personally wouldn't cull a pup based on color, but then if I breed it's because I'm breeding to a working standard and so color wouldn't be a consideration really. However, I'm not one to ever see things as only black or only white, so I won't presume to judge others for decisions made in the vast grey areas.

 

The various discussions about breed(s) on this board have often enlightened, educated, entertained and sometimes bewildered me, because I know so little about all that, and it's been a very interesting and rewarding learning experience, but this thread has left me sad.

I don't see how it should make you any more sad than if you were to read about (or just think about) all the unwanted animals (not just dogs) that are put to death in shelters every year. I don't see death as something to be avoided at all costs. In fact I can think of many fates I'd consider worse than death. But maybe that's just me.

 

J.

[bsms99]

...The numbers were never intended to be taken literally - just as an illustration that Joe Blow down the street shouldn't be breeding his bitch just because she is a nice dog.

 

Lisa

Which is how this 'Joe Blow' took them. From the perspective of this thread, the Panda GSDs seem to have little reason to be bred other than color. Since it violates that breed's 'standard', you shouldn't pass the genes on unless you are trying to start a new breed. These dogs are being sold as ppurebred dogs.

 

Still, it would be hard to argue that you SHOULD breed a dog unless you have some reason to believe it is in the top half or higher - if you breed for breed, so to speak. In my case, we both had unregistered Border Collies (I hadn't submitted the paperwork for Leila, and the male came from a long line on dogs without papers) - so from a formal breed perspective, it shouldn't have mattered. All of the pups would have been 'mutts', and gone to ranchers who needed dogs with strong basic instincts, but who couldn't pay for or use the skills of a well bred, trained dog.

 

Once you depart from the dogs of serious breeders, I'm not sure it matters a lot if it is a 'purebred' or a mongrel. Since mongrels are being culled daily in the local shelter, I don't see the moral impact of culling unsuitable purebreds - other than the fact that I could never do it.

[Krambambuli]

Julie, I read your posts and I wasn't questioning your arguments. You went off on a somewhat different topic, that's all I meant.

 

 

One could get overwhelmingly sad looking at all the suffering, animal and human in the world -- I manage to not let it get me down most of the time. I have no problem with death. I had to have put down one beloved cat and several sick guinea pigs, it was the right thing to do.

 

This board is full of people who would go through hell and back for their dogs, I guess it caught me by surprise how easily a newborn puppy could be dismissed. (I have only those pictures to go by, I know nothing else about those panda dogs and their health or if they are great dogs or not). I also said very clearly earlier that I do not promote or encourage people to keep breeding these pandas because of limited stock/genes and what that might do to their health in the long run, it was the killing part that put me off.

 

 

[FlyByNight]

I remember a few years back when the "Panda" shepherd first appeared ... the GSD boards discussed it ad nauseum for a while. In the end it appears to be a coat mutation, that's been exploited by a bunch of breeders looking to make a profit on it. The original litter of pups were DNA ID'd to confirm the parents.

 

White patches are not uncommon in GSD's, even on solid blacks. And there have always been the occasional strange colored GSD's out there ... blues, livers, whites (which became their own division eventually), etc. Way back during the founding of the breed, GSD's even came in brindle. What seems to have been the difference between those off-colored GSD's and the new "panda" shepherd, in my view, is mostly marketing. Someone made a big deal out of a funny color and started advertising.

 

If you're breeding for working ability of any sort then the only criterion for keep or don't keep (as in keep in the breeding population) is whether the animal works to the required standard, regardless of looks. The dogs who led to this discussion are probably a very poor example for this kind of discussion though because chances are they were not being bred to a working standard to begin with.

 

For a better example perhaps, and sticking with this breed, look at long coated Shepherds, which are currently faulted in the AKC and disqualified in the SV (original German registry). Coating is a simple Mendelian recessive, it was easy for many breeders to "specialize" in fluffy GSD's for the pet market, and they've done so for many years.

 

Since normal coated dogs frequently throw coated pups, there were also plenty of very talented, working, coated GSD's who couldn't get breeding rights in the SV - therefore pups bred off of them could not be registered. What's happened though, is that the SV is going to be accepting long stock coat GSD's starting in 2009; they'll be shown in their own division but can be Kor Klassed (breed surveyed) now.

 

I should say, the SV did at one time accept long stock coats (dogs with a long coat but who still possess an undercoat) and then changed the rules. So this is technically more a reversion than a switch.

 

special designation for a proven working dog or a dog that has been proven to produce working dogs, basically breeding papers, only pups resulting from a pair of approved breeding dogs would be eligible for full registration

 

The SV requires dogs to pass a breed survey before breeding in order for puppies from said breeding to be registered. They must have their hips scored, be graded in show, and demonstrate a certain level of working ability (Schutzhund I or IPO I title).

 

Has it worked to preserve working ability in the German Shepherd? Meh. The SV dogs aren't in nearly as dire a state as the American AKC ones, that's for sure ... but there are plenty of SV dogs who are primarily suited for show and wouldn't cut it in a real working environment and never get higher ScH titles than is required to breed, and sometimes get even those under sketchy circumstances. So there's still a division btwn. working and show dogs in Germany, if not as great a schism as that in the US. There is also a blurred middle where some dogs do cross over and do very well in both aspects of show and ability.....

[Northof49]

The SV requires dogs to pass a breed survey before breeding in order for puppies from said breeding to be registered. They must have their hips scored, be graded in show, and demonstrate a certain level of working ability (Schutzhund I or IPO I title).

 

This is why I stated on another thread that I question why GSDs and other breeds such as the Belgian Shepherd are still in the herding group instead of now being in the working group as their working ability is no longer judged or defined by their ability to work stock but by the ability to do Schutzhund, etc.

[2 Devils]

My favorite breed is the german shepherd but I will probably never own another one because you will have a hard time finding one that is built for real work unless you pay the bucks to import one or get one from an imported dog. Looking at GSDs make me cringe.

 

Vanillalove explained things nicely and I have to agree.

 

The mis-color is out there and someone will always want the "odd" marked one. I love mismarks but not to the point of the Panda Shepherd.

 

I had a GSD that I wanted to train in schutzand (sp?) and found a gentleman that trained police dogs. My boyfriend at the time (now ex) had a white german shepherd and she came with us. The guy took Meesha (my standard black and tan GSD) and went off with her. He came back awhile later and said - I did not deserve the dog and I should turn her over to a police force - that she needs to be a working dog. The guy said he was really freaked when we showed up with the white shepherd. He had found 2 extremes in temperament - either very aggressive or very timid. He said it was rare to find one like the one with us - she had a nice temperament. He truly believed that the extremes in temperament were caused by the breeding for color. He also said they were not really all that smart. He said when you breed for color you breed the brains out the dog.

 

Now imagine what could happen if these Panda Shepherds with their limited gene pool could be like in a few years. The possibility for temperament and health issues are increased.

 

I may not necessarily agree with culling but maybe if more culling was done the extremes in certain breeds would not be what it is today.

 

Just one mismark can be passed off as a mutt and s/n but when more keep showing up you are getting folks breeding for color and not working ability or health.

 

The Panda Shepherds are pretty but aren't good for the breed as a whole.

[MrSnappy]

but maybe if more culling was done the extremes in certain breeds would not be what it is today.

 

I'm going to argue that the extremes in most breeds today are because of breeding for type. If culling is practiced, it's done so because a dog does NOT match the "extremes" that define a good majority of purebred dogs and their artificial and exaggerated standards. So I doubt that culling has done much except for removal potentially healthier and more realistic examples of dogs from the genetic pool - and that includes culling in all its alleged forms, including the one where you don't breed examples who are not representative of the ones put up at conformation shows.

 

In fact, the GSD is where it is largely because of the extremes the standard requires of it. Breeding for colour breeds the brains out of the dog, but so does breeding for anything else other than brains - like extreme angulation.

 

RDM

[1sheepdoggal]

I am having a really hard time trying to say anything at this point, without loosing my temper.

Heather, this started out being a very uninflamatory thread, (which considering the content, I thought was going to be impossible) with people learning and exchanging ideas and agreeing to disagree on a mature and adult level.

Since you have called me out, and flamed me in a very rude and inappropriate manner, I feel a need to address you firstly.

If you were standing in front of me at this very second, Id reach out and wack you right upside your head. How dare you make unwarrented accusations about me. I really do think you owe me an appology. Which even if you did, Im not so sure Id accept, but I feel you owe me one all the same. I dont mind you having an opinion, we are all entitled. I do believe I said that in one of my very first posts. However, making false statements and accusations about me as well as name calling, especially since you dont even know me, is reckless and childish, not to mention very careless and shows a lack of class. We all have our passions, and we can all be passionate about them. But really, do you think reverting to name calling is the way to get your point across? Not many people want to see that kind of junk. I think what you were trying to do was to get a lot of people to follow in your wake, and start some kind of uprising. Well, Im proud of the folks on this board, that didnt allow that to happen, and didnt follow in your wake. Now, people may not agree with me, or how I feel, and thats fine, I stated very early on that I didnt expect people to accept it or completly understand, but I do believe, you look more of an ass right now than I. At least you sure enough do in my eyes.

Personally, I think you need to take a little vacation from adult conversation, if you cant act like one.

Vanillalove, Thank you. You were able to articulate much better than I what I was trying to say. I also wanted to thank eveyone else for the consideration with which they conducted themselves. The mere mention of culling can spark many emotions. It was not my desire to do that when I originally posted to this thread, and even though you may not agree, at least you were able to try to understand: That is how we grow as a community.

 

For me, this thread has reached its end. I no longer care to be apart of it, as I had stated early on I did not intend to get into a pissing match with anyone over it, and I no longer can be sure I will be able to hold if my tongue if anyone else were to call me a natzi. However, continue on, I think that the discussion may yet still open some folks eyes to the destruction of breeds, that not necessarily breeding so much for color does to a breed, but more over what breeding away from the original purpose of a breed "for" color without reguard to anything but color in any breed can, has done and will do.

[Lenajo]

Just a point of view from farming/livestock raising.... when I see animals who are *completely* atypical the norm in phenotype (color, markings, etc) for most of a "breed" (whether it's registered or not, using "breed" as just a fixed population - say an established flock of sheep with similar genetics) they are usually genetically abnormal in other ways.

 

I would never risk the heart of a buyer of my puppies (of the finances of those who by my livestock) by putting an atypical puppy or livestock indiivual out there. If it *is* found to be abnormal I will deal with it, but it won't leave here. I learned that the hard way... truly "odd" puppies, even given away s/neuter with full disclosure to good homes, will always be the subject of pity (which isn't fair to them) and will in the end damage the reputation of the breeder and the breed. The least of importance is the reputation of the breeder, but in the end it's tied in with breed reputation, and who wants to spend a life of pity? And they do know, I am without a doubt on that.

 

You can't keep every animal you breed that comes out abnormal. And if you breed anything long enough, even with the greatest of care, you will see abnormalities. Sometimes humane death is the kindest option. Spay/neuter is great too - but not as a cop out because the breeder doesn't have the balls to deal with what they help create.

 

I know too many people who thinks it's ok to put the severe cleft palate puppy through $$$ of painful surgery then in a pet home knowing in their hearts that full well one defect rarely is alone, to send that 2 headed lamb to the petting zoo, and too keep that albino deaf/blind cow as a converstation piece that eats hay and runs into walls regularily. I wonder how they sleep at night.

 

I find the panda issue interesting, and wonder what other defects run with the odd coloring. Has anyone ever seen enough of them to know if there are any?

[vanillalove]

I find the panda issue interesting, and wonder what other defects run with the odd coloring. Has anyone ever seen enough of them to know if there are any?

 

Well, my first reaction was that they just don't look like German Shepherds. I don't know about any of you, but there is something odd to me in the picture that RDM posted, that dog just looks ..odd?

 

I'm sure there isn't anything really apparent now, which is why people keep breeding them to each other in hopes of gaining breed status. Even if there are any health problems surfacing now, you can be sure that it's really covered up because the breeders do want breed status (I could be wrong, I'm just going on my own logic here). Either way, defects will become apparent and history only keeps showing us that. But as it is, they already are very poor examples of the stoic GSD so I'm sure there is something lingering.

[goku's parents]

well in my eyes, Dogs are dogs and people really get too obsessed over the couoring and or breeding of dogs. I thinks it is just unfair for a dog to be condemned just because they are a different color or even a mixed breed. Dogs in whatever breed or color are good companions if trained correctly. It is not the darn dogs fault that human try to get the exposure and money on how they look. But all dogs should really be spayed or neutered, with the exceptions of those who are not trying to make a huge profit upon these animals. Those dogs are adorable and i wouldn't mind having them as a part of my family. Dogs are dogs people. And as you shouldn't discriminate against human beings you also shouldn't discriminate againt breeds of animals!

[MrSnappy]

Did you even read the thread?

 

RDM

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I learned that the hard way... truly "odd" puppies, even given away s/neuter with full disclosure to good homes, will always be the subject of pity (which isn't fair to them) and will in the end damage the reputation of the breeder and the breed.

 

This is what I have heard from some old timers in our very own breed - people who have and some who continue to form the Border Collie breed. I don't and probably never will breed for the very reason that I know that in practice I wouldn't have the heart to do some things that I think have made this breed very strong.

 

To go back to RDMs point, that culling things that weren't in line with the fancy extremes is what has undermined the GSD - I wholeheartedly agree. But what needed to happen was to cull things that weren't in line with the dog's purpose - proven with actual work. The idea of culling puppies is horrifying but we are now talking about culling adults. Imagine that.

 

Now with selection for performance we end up with another type of "extreme" - a highly specialized performance dog. Many old time breeders and some today even, believe that aberrations from that standard shouldn't leave the kennel for any reason. The standard is a balanced working dog - dogs that don't make it as workers could be, as Lenajo noted, potentially heartbreakers, difficult, unsound, or even dangerous. They make both the breeder and the breed as a whole look bad.

 

That was then, this is now. The Border Collie gene pool is, for now stable and consistent enough that almost no one these days considers culling by euthanasia needful except for health problems and real extreme issues. I've only seen it personally in kennels that are doing things like trying to increase some characteristic and breed to a very strict standard. Some folks still cull white and even other colors.

[Sue R]

Just in case anyone is interested, here is the website for a page that illustrates many "breed types and related families" of the German Shepherd Dog. I had no clue that there was breeding for so many different types, and probably very little breeding with usefulness and purpose in mind versus looks and appearances.

 

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Br...reed_Types.html

 

According to this individual, the "Panda Shepherd" derives from one individual that showed this particular mutation. (I prefer to not recognize a "breed" that is simply based on a simple color mutation and is not bred for some significant, purposeful difference from the original breed or breeds. We all know that fragmentation of breeds is part of the stock and trade of the American dog fancy, as in the Belgian Shepherd being four breeds rather than four coat types, and the push by others to make different "breeds" of different color or coat types of certain breeds.)

 

What surprised me was the roached backs in many of the Eastern European lines, which seems as much as flaw in soundness as the trend in show lines for the extreme angulation. Some of the illustrated dogs look quite grotesque, as if they are bred to look like they are straining on their leads to "get the bad guy" and be uber-guard dogs when they are just standing still.

 

Very interesting discussion here, aside from the flaming.

[Sue R]

Sorry, double post due to connection glitch.

[Sue R]

Sorry, triple post due to connection glitch.

[afrancis]

Sue,

That was a really interesting link.

I especially liked this quote:

 

"Science is now revealing that the domestic dog has evolved a genetic capability to recognize human gestures and intonations of voice, an ability not possessed by the wolf. This would suggest that crossing the two might not be such a good idea."

 

And the miniature GSD with its treasure-trove of health problems; boy, I can see that developing a large following among those who love the idea of a GSD but didn't want the size

 

Along the same vein, has anyone heard of the movement to cross border collies with huskies, for a superior sled-dog?

Ailsa

[sea4th]

Thank you for that link, Sue. Very interesting. I grew up around GSD's and i still love the breed and someday, would love to bring another one into my life. The first time I ever went to a dog show, I went to the GSD ring and wondered WTH happened here. I'm so disgusted with the American type, where some consider it normal for a pup to be walking on it's pasterns. @@.

 

I can't think of too many breeds who are much more loyal than a GSD. Culling takes a lot of guts. I don't think anyone enjoys doing it, but those who have the vision and the resolve to do it, have my respect. But that also depends on the type of vision. (Some of these American GSD's should have been culled years ago).

 

The other side of the culling issue brings to mind someone who used to breed border collies, in this county, in fact, for many years--- an old dairy farmer, who, once he sold his herd, went into breeding border collies. He went to the best working lines, continually bought up breeding stock and bred border collies for years --- not on working ability -- for the traditional black and white. That was his vision. He felt that they sold faster. So, if a tri pup was ever born he immediately killed it --- and I've heard of some ugly rumors how. The result was classic black and white dogs out of working lines --- but flaky between the ears. Many of them appeared to be neurotic. Many were dysplastic -- and most did have the desire to work, but it was painful to watch some of them. But they became popular with the show folks.

 

His dogs were not proven. Just black and white. He died a couple of years ago. Thank goodness that there are less of his dogs showing up in rescue now.

 

I would say leave the breeding and culling of GSD's to people who know the breed and what they are doing. And the reference to nazi's in this thread smacks of AR.

 

JMO. A lot of good points have been brought up and I've learned a lot reading all of your input. Think there is yet hope for the GSD? Don't ever want to see border collies go the way of them.

[bsms99]

Just in case anyone is interested, here is the website for a page that illustrates many "breed types and related families" of the German Shepherd Dog. I had no clue that there was breeding for so many different types, and probably very little breeding with usefulness and purpose in mind versus looks and appearances.

 

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Br...reed_Types.html

 

...Some of the illustrated dogs look quite grotesque, as if they are bred to look like they are straining on their leads to "get the bad guy" and be uber-guard dogs when they are just standing still...

That was a shocking site. I had no idea. I owned a GSD bitch in the late 80s/early 90s (she died at 3 just after leaving England's quarantine). 65 lbs, looked more like the 1920 GSD, which in turn is one of the few that looked healthy! Your comment reminds me of the ads for the late 90s Toyota Celica: "It looks fast standing still!" They ran ads of cops giving it a ticket while parked.

 

The link below is for Tucson's shelter adoption dogs - almost all of whom look healthier than those purebred GSDs.

 

http://tucson.craigslist.org/pet/955908270.html

 

Very sad. My shepherd cross pound mutt is one of the fastest dogs I've ever seen, a very good guard dog and completely gentle. I'd take him any day over the champion dogs at that link!

[Maralynn]

Think there is yet hope for the GSD? Don't ever want to see border collies go the way of them.

 

Oh yes. Shutzhund is a pretty popular sport for serious dog people, and GSDs are probably the #1 breed in those competitions. There is still a very healthy number of working GSDs in this country and in Europe. But there is a distinct line between the show dogs and the working dogs.

[vanillalove]

I wouldn't have the heart to do some things that I think have made this breed very strong.

 

I think this very nicely sums of the idea of culling and the entire thread. We can probably all agree that it's a very hard thing to do and it may not be exactly "right", but sometimes, things that this have to be done in order to form a strong and stable breed. Breeding really isn't for the faint of heart, and I think people get into it with all the right intentions for the breed and when it comes to something like a genetic mutation, it pulls on their heartstrings. I mean, the same thing would probably happen to the best of us here, I can only assume anyways, where something pops up like a new colour and you think "This pup could probably end up being a great worker, both the parents were proven workers, good match of the two.. Well, maybe I can let it slip this one time." I mean, puppies are friggin' adorable, I don't think anyone does it without as much as a sad sigh at least. But that one time is all it takes to start a devastating cycle of ruination of the breed. I commend the people who have brought the Border Collie to where it is today, it is relatively stable in comparison to other breeds, and I especially commend the breeders of GSD, who are trying to keep what's left of the breed alive.

 

I think there's hope for all breeds out there, but I think what we're going to see a lot more of are distinctions between the show variety and the working bred, like the Jack Russell and Parson Russell. I think we'll always have sport bred, or conformation bred, or whatever and they'll be an absolute scum of an example of the breed but I also think with that we'll see more and more working breeders forming a stable breed. We might see something for the GSD like the Jack Russell, and maybe gain a different breed status. That way the German Shepherd name can be used the way it was intended and signifies the breed it was really for, and the show people can have something else to play with. This is just all speculation on my part, but it's the way I think I see it happening unless the Kennel Club changes some things. Sorry if that's a little off-topic!

[Liz P]

Along the same vein, has anyone heard of the movement to cross border collies with huskies, for a superior sled-dog?

Ailsa

 

That has been going on for decades, it is not new. Those crosses produce some really nice sled dogs. It is generally done to get smart, obedient lead dogs. There are a few kennels in the north with dogs who clearly have BC behind them. One well respected handler has a kennel full of merle, black and white and red and white huskies who could pass for purebred BCs if they worked sheep. I don't have a problem with that sort of cross breeding because it is done with a purpose in mind, the breeders know what they are doing and the resulting pups are working dogs.

 

The lead dog for a winning Quest team (2001?) was an oops cross between a Border Collie and husky.

[bsms99]

The original Rin Tin Tin...not sure he wouldn't be culled or neutered to eliminate him from current GSD lines:

 

[Lenajo]

Along the same vein, has anyone heard of the movement to cross border collies with huskies, for a superior sled-dog?

 

It isn't the same thing at all. Purpose breed hybridization is very successful. The key is *purpose* - that is a healthy sound animals that are able to complete the working tasks needed. Sled dogs, livestock guardian dogs, guide dogs, have all benefited from this. Lurchers - collie and sighthound crosses used typically for hunting - are amazing dogs.

 

I don't consider making what-a-poo and flyball-made hybrids to fill the "purpose" part. Whim, definately. At best single trait selection with no attention paid to the whole dog in either the parents or the offspring. Which as we've seen many times over,is a recipe for disaster.

[Shetlander]

I don't consider making what-a-poo and flyball-made hybrids to fill the "purpose" part. Whim, definately. At best single trait selection with no attention paid to the whole dog in either the parents or the offspring. Which as we've seen many times over,is a recipe for disaster.

 

Sounds like the sled dogs are bred with more careful attention to a variety of traits? Which is good for the dogs, but isn't dog sledding also largely a sport? Not knocking the sport and I don't have strong opinions about it or sled dogs in general. I just don't see the same "purpose" as livestock guardian dogs.