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I actually do not think so. I totally understand the idea that such fancy coloring could endanger a breed that is already hugely fragmented and troubled with numerous health issues.

 

The existence of such dogs as pets would create more demand for them. Even if the original breeder that produced them as an "oops" was responsible about the problem - demand always creates supply in a free market.

 

Realistically, I think that most shelters would end up listing such dogs as mixes - even if the person who turned the dog in said it was a purebred GSD. Most people would not believe those are German Shepherds. This particular mutation in the GSD's is something I had no knowledge of prior to this thread and before this, I would have thought someone made a mistake if I saw such a dog listed at a shelter as a GSD.

 

If one were to show up in a shelter, I would assume it would not be adopted out without a S/N contract or would be S/N before it was adopted out, and therefore would not be a question. It is not shelters and rescues that will perpetuate this type of breeding.

 

Thanks for the reply. It helps me understand your overall perspective better.

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Ok, sheepdoggal, I'll give you one of "those emotions" to which you, as already announced, won't respond: shock and sadness. That is, to still be reading, even after all the much needed discussions, on this forum and elsewhere, on the ethics of dog breeding following the BBC documentary a few months ago, a steadfast opinion that culling can be part of "practical, ethical breeding."

 

To me, breeding dogs for a "purpose" this way, i.e. producing puppies, and killing those that for whatever reason don't fit the standard imposed by someone/somewhere, is unethical and wrong. You produce life, and then kill that life that doesn't fit your bill. And I don't care what your particular purpose is, and whether it is more "responsible" ("working") than producing pretty-colored dogs for money. It's just wrong.

 

And yes, I find it wrong to purposefully (if so) cross-breed a BC with a GSD to create a new breed, or "pretty" dogs, like the ones above. Yes, these dogs should be neutered/spayed.

 

I also find it wrong that people are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a fancy pure-bred dog, instead of taking a look at those millions of dogs discarded and available in dog shelters.

 

I realize that there are some benefits to dog breeding (i.e., sheep farmers obviously will continue to need border collies that excel at herding sheep. But why not at least try to find alternative homes for those puppies that turn out "less" than expected?).

 

I wished dog breeding was much more regulated and limited to valid need, and that some of the ethics we have developed for human lives ("selective human breeding," anyone?) will eventually also be applied to the animal world. As obvious from your post (sadly, I'm sure you're not alone with your viewpoints), we're not there yet.

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I think I agree with RDM on this one. If I had a litter of working border collie pups, and one came out "mismarked" then I woudn't cull it unless it also couldn't work (by which time, the culling would be S/N). The problem with breeds like the German Shepherd is that they've had a *conformation* standard for so long (much to their detriment) that the colors described therein are deemed the only appropriate color. If I wanted a *working* German Shepherd and the mismarked dog was physically and mentally capable of the required work, then I don't see how one can really justify culling (except through some sort of nonbreeding status)--not if we're comparing it to the same arguments we apply to the working border collie situation. If the animal is defined by its job, then all the animal need be able to do is excel at its job, right?

 

Note: This is not a value statement on what these folks are doing with their so-called Panda Shepherds. It's more a statement about double standards. I can't think of many (any?) breeds for whom color truly affects performance. There are a lot of breeds whose standards allow all sorts of colors, but you won't see but a select few colors being put up in bench shows.

 

J.

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Now I'm really confused. You are saying that we should not breed for color, (and I agree with that), but if a "color whoops" should happen, the puppy should die? If you weren't breeding for color in the first place, why does it matter all of a sudden? I thought the responsible thing is to not care about color, but soundness, working ability and so on.

 

It's like the chicken and the egg question: Does the color of a specific dog create a demand, or is it the neverending quest of people for the unusual? And more importantly, is this quest really ever going to stop? I am always stunned what people come up with: naked guinea pigs, color-injected aquarium fish and so forth. I kind of doubt that there was a demand for them out there until such demand was created, but I could be wrong ...

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No, I dont. I thought I had been quite clear on that. If one were to show up in a shelter, I would assume it would not be adopted out without a S/N contract or would be S/N before it was adopted out, and therefore would not be a question. It is not shelters and rescues that will perpetuate this type of breeding.

 

Hi Darci,

Theoretically speaking, what about a pediatric S/N for these pups before homing them (even if it means homing them later than 8 weeks)? Would that be an acceptable alternative to culling--or does Rebecca have a point in that once they are out in the world, they create a de facto demand by less scrupulous breeders? I am trying to understand all viewpoints.

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Hi Darci,

Theoretically speaking, what about a pediatric S/N for these pups before homing them (even if it means homing them later than 8 weeks)? Would that be an acceptable alternative to culling--or does Rebecca have a point in that once they are out in the world, they create a de facto demand by less scrupulous breeders? I am trying to understand all viewpoints.

 

I have to agree with what Becca has said, I think producing these pups produces more demand, and yes there will be more money motivated breeders turning them out for a profit with no concern to the consequences of the breed as a whole. And, there will always be uneducated people with more dollars than sense, ready and willing to buy a" rare" type dog. I also agree with RDM. Its a moot point, the damage has already been done. The GSD is in a state of ruination as we speak, and has been for many many years, because it has been bred to a conformation standard here in the states instead of a working standard.

As far as comparing breeds, IE. The GSD and the BC I would not hold a litter of working bred BC pups to the same marking ethics, as "markings" except for in AKC dogs has never been an issue in working ability anyway. However my point is that, and Im feeling pretty secure about it, especially in seeing the first and second pics of the black and white dog and the tri dog in this thread that look nothing like a GSD, that those that are breeding the Panda Shepherd, are not utilizing proven dogs that physically and mentally conform to what a GSD should be in order to be deemed a suitable, breeding dog. Again. Just IMHO. I appreciate the thoughfulness with which these questions have been asked, as opposed to how it could have gone. Thank you

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Now I'm really confused. You are saying that we should not breed for color, (and I agree with that), but if a "color whoops" should happen, the puppy should die? If you weren't breeding for color in the first place, why does it matter all of a sudden? I thought the responsible thing is to not care about color, but soundness, working ability and so on.

 

Do you think we now have Panda Shepherds because breeders that produced the "Whoops puppies" did the responsible thing and had the dogs S/N before they could go on to produce more? If color whoop's occurred in a breeding of two dogs that were fine examples of the breed mentally and physically, I dont think I would have so much of a problem with that. But, look at the pictures, and then ask yourself, do those look like good examples of the breed? Do they even look like a GSD? Its the "quality" of the dogs they are breeding, or lack of it to get the color that I have a problem with.

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Do you think we now have Panda Shepherds because breeders that produced the "Whoops puppies" did the responsible thing and had the dogs S/N before they could go on to produce more? If color whoop's occurred in a breeding of two dogs that were fine examples of the breed mentally and physically, I dont think I would have so much of a problem with that. But, look at the pictures, and then ask yourself, do those look like good examples of the breed? Do they even look like a GSD? Its the "quality" of the dogs they are breeding, or lack of it to get the color that I have a problem with.

 

 

Darci, I said clearly "dogs should not be bred for color" and "I'm concerned about the health of these panda dogs because of limited genetic stock", so why would I consider them responsible? Obviously those breeders don't agree with or have even considered this question, and I know just about as much about these people as you do. The dogs are pretty, but I would have never guessed they were German Shepherds, nor do I promote their breeding.

 

My point was and is, that I don't believe culling is the right approach. I'd rather have breeders give up their business altogether than kill otherwise healthy pups.

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My usual disclaimer---I have not read all the posts.

 

When I hear someone say their dog had pups, I cringe. For the simple reason I know most people are idiots and don't know the first thing about breed's whys or what fors.

HOWEVER, if I were a BC breeder (which I would NEVER be) and got wacky colored BCs, why would I care? Are they sound and out of good working purebred parents? Maybe I am just missing the point. (don't aim all the guns at once!)

BCs come in SOOOOOOOOOO many colors and textures, how could you say what was what?

Now as for GSDs, I don't know the standards of color, but why not just S/N the offenders, and cast them off as mixes? You surely wouldn't release the papers on the dog anyway right?

I think I am lost.

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So, my question, looking at these BC-like dogs, is should we automatically believe that this was a naturally-occurring mutation in pure-bred GSDs? 'Cuz, to me, they look very much like a not accidental crossing between a GSD and BC that produced candy colors.

 

Is there any scientific tracking system that proves these dogs are from strictly GSD lines?

 

Who are the people that have declared this candy-colored mutation? Are they reputable? Do they have DNA tests to prove that both original parents were purebred GSDs? Or are we just taking their word for it?

 

Skeptical in all things,

 

Mary

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Do they have DNA tests to prove that both original parents were purebred GSDs? Or are we just taking their word for it?

 

Skeptical in all things,

 

Mary

 

If I'm not mistaken, the DNA test is still not 100% reliable at this time. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's no 100% test yet for breed.

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Darci, I said clearly "dogs should not be bred for color" and "I'm concerned about the health of these panda dogs because of limited genetic stock", so why would I consider them responsible? Obviously those breeders don't agree with or have even considered this question, and I know just about as much about these people as you do. The dogs are pretty, but I would have never guessed they were German Shepherds, nor do I promote their breeding.

 

My point was and is, that I don't believe culling is the right approach. I'd rather have breeders give up their business altogether than kill otherwise healthy pups.

 

And, as I said, I wasnt asking, nor was I expecting for anyone to agree with me. I simply stated my feelings. You are free to enjoy your ideals as I am free to have mine. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else that my ideals are the right ones. If you dont feel that culling is the right approach, then thats fine, I dont need to try to convince you otherwise, nor do I believe I have tried.

 

Edited to add: We all Im sure, would like to see these breeders give up their biz altogether, but seriously do think they will, or do you see that ever happening?

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Hi Darci,

 

I just want to make sure I understand:

 

Your claim, based upon your knowledge of the GSD, is that the overall apearance of these "Panda Shepherds" leads you to suspect that they are the product of a deliberate attempt to breed for a parti-colored dog, not the "once in a million accident" that some of the language describing them suggests. Since we all know that the deliberate breeding for candy colors dimishes a breed, your claim is that these dogs aren't just anomaolies but represent a type of breeding practice that is a threat to the (cough) integrity of the GSD breeding program as it is known today. Panda Shepherds represent yet another way that a good breed can be ruined through poor breeding practices. A true accident/mutation could easily have been spayed/neutered and quietly given away as a pet with no papers and no claims as to being a GSD, it's parents could be S/Ned, and there would be no problem in your mind. Have I got that right?

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And, as I said, I wasnt asking, nor was I expecting for anyone to agree with me. I simply stated my feelings. You are free to enjoy your ideals as I am free to have mine. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else that my ideals are the right ones. If you dont feel that culling is the right approach, then thats fine, I dont need to try to convince you otherwise, nor do I believe I have tried.

 

 

Darci, you chose my post to quote and reply to directly. I replied to that. That's all. It's fine to disagree, so let's leave it at that. I'm not trying to upset you!

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If I'm not mistaken, the DNA test is still not 100% reliable at this time. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's no 100% test yet for breed.

 

I agree. Even if breeders were to produce papers for Panda Shepherds, showing both sire and dam were PB. Its still very easy to subsitute another pup that is around the same age and say it is from the PB parents. Ive seen it done more than once, and was instrumental in helping shut down a kennel years ago that was doing just that.

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Hi Darci,

 

I just want to make sure I understand:

 

Your claim, based upon your knowledge of the GSD, is that the overall apearance of these "Panda Shepherds" leads you to suspect that they are the product of a deliberate attempt to breed for a parti-colored dog, not the "once in a million accident" that some of the language describing them suggests. Since we all know that the deliberate breeding for candy colors dimishes a breed, your claim is that these dogs aren't just anomaolies but represent a type of breeding practice that is a threat to the (cough) integrity of the GSD breeding program as it is known today. Panda Shepherds represent yet another way that a good breed can be ruined through poor breeding practices. A true accident/mutation could easily have been spayed/neutered and quietly given away as a pet with no papers and no claims as to being a GSD, it's parents could be S/Ned, and there would be no problem in your mind. Have I got that right?

 

No, I dont think anyone "started out" trying to breed for the color, ( but, I could be wrong there) I do feel that the color was a mutation, or an accident, much like the white boxer, White GSD and many other breeds that mutations are now being sold as "rare". But I do feel that the dogs now being bred after the fact, are being bred without consideration to anything except color, and that in my mind diminishes the breed. That fact, to me, shows poor breeding practices. Had a true mutation been quietly S/N and given away as a pet, we wouldnt be having this discussion, at least not about the GSD. I hope I understood your question and followed up with the answers you were wanting.

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Darci, you chose my post to quote and reply to directly. I replied to that. That's all. It's fine to disagree, so let's leave it at that. I'm not trying to upset you!

 

No worries, you didnt upset me. Sorry if I gave that impression.

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Thanks. It just took a few tries to wrap my mind around your position. At first blush, the idea of culling for color is - simply put - appalling. But seen from your perspective, I understand the p.o.v. It's a very strong opinion, but it makes sense given your commitment to the breed. I used to work w/quite a few European-bred GSDs. For me, they were the only dogs that have rivaled Border collies as potential working partners. It's always sad to see greatness exploited by greed, whether in the human or animal world.

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It is my understanding that, while there is no accurate DNA test for breed, you *can* DNA test a litter of pups to prove who the parents are.

 

If the parents are known/suspected, even litters with 2 fathers can be tested to show the father of each pup.

 

So if the "breeders" of these mismarked shepherds own both the parents, there is a way for them to prove that the puppies came from the dogs they claim.

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So, my question, looking at these BC-like dogs, is should we automatically believe that this was a naturally-occurring mutation in pure-bred GSDs? 'Cuz, to me, they look very much like a not accidental crossing between a GSD and BC that produced candy colors.

 

Is there any scientific tracking system that proves these dogs are from strictly GSD lines?

 

Who are the people that have declared this candy-colored mutation? Are they reputable? Do they have DNA tests to prove that both original parents were purebred GSDs? Or are we just taking their word for it?

 

Skeptical in all things,

 

Mary

 

Geez, go away for a few days and look what I missed! I went on-line to try to do a little research. Hmmm...seems many of the panda breeders have a variety of colors at their house; solid blacks; black and tans; whites; sables; "pandas" all at the same house (didn't see any border collie pictures, though.)

 

I have read and re-read how this has been proven by genetic testing that it is a color mutation...but I can't find that documented anywhere...just people (mostly breeders) who keep saying that.

 

And who sees who or what gets swabbed? Just like when people have two purebred dogs, and the bitch gets caught by a mix or a stray, and they send in for papers since they have two sets of numbers. Who knows what is being swabbed?

 

Who actually monitors any of this? It's all on the "honor system"

 

I can't buy into any of this without some credible proof...not just what a breeder says.

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I think we're having much of this discussion because you said you wouldn't have done that. You said you would have killed it.

 

I would have had a mutation PTS, because I wouldnt trust anyone to not try and exploit the mutation, had it been a pup that I had bred. Luckily, I never had to make that choice, but my decision still would have been the same.

Laura brough up a good point about pediatric S/N but that is not some thing that I agree with doing in this type of situation. If its out there, people will want it, and some time, some where some one will breed them. I would keep my piece of mind, knowing that it wasnt started, seen, or able to have been perpetuated because of me in any way. As an ethical GSD breeder I would not want to be associated in any way shape or form with a Panda Shepherd, and I feel I should be allowed that piece of mind as well as that decision when it would pertain to my dogs or breeding program.

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Thanks. It just took a few tries to wrap my mind around your position. At first blush, the idea of culling for color is - simply put - appalling. But seen from your perspective, I understand the p.o.v. It's a very strong opinion, but it makes sense given your commitment to the breed. I used to work w/quite a few European-bred GSDs. For me, they were the only dogs that have rivaled Border collies as potential working partners. It's always sad to see greatness exploited by greed, whether in the human or animal world.

 

They use to say: The German Shepherd dog: The one breed of dog that does more things for more people in more places than any other breed of dog.

Use to.

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What I think is intersting about these dogs is that it looks a lot like the Irish spotting gene that BCs tend to carry. Not that I am saying that it came from a BC cross, what I am saying is, wouldn't this be interesting if it is essentially the same gene, mutating independantly in GSDs?

 

Similar color patterning genes that do similar things show up in domestic mammalian mutations frequently. For example, most wild animals need to blend into their enviroment, so they carry a multi-colored fur gene causing ticking and sort of a blend-in range of colors called agouti. But a simple mutation can cause agouti to be expressed as black. This means if you have a "mistake" in a gene that controls deposition of color, you don't deposit it the same way, hence black. Many different types of mutations (that is, base pair errors any any one million of a given number of pairs at the loci) can cause this - all that has to happen is that the gene coding for the protein that controls color deposition doesn't work anymore. You can therefore have many independant mutations in totally unrelated lines or even species - all resulting in the same outcoem - black fur.

 

Irish spotting is (I think) specific to dogs, but it is similar to other mutations seen in rats, humans, cows, mice, etc. for white spotting. In general white spotting actually *is* a good thing to breed away from initially as it is a mutation affecting a gene (for Kit protein) that affects intenstinal activity, stem cell formation, and many other poorly understood things. However, irish spotting is a mild form (compared to extreme and piebald, which are also alleles at this locus) and not usually related to health problems in dogs. There are many different types of spotting even in dogs, but this looks so similar to the irish spotting gene (white on inner legs, belly, neck, and face). I wonder how close it really is? What I am saying is, is this the same gene? Or a *new* knock-out in the Kit protein?

 

Sorry, I'm a biologist. I see an alleged spontaneous mutation and think about what could be learned from that.

 

As for the culling, I see Darci's point but think the ends don't really justify the means. If people looking for fancy colors were the ONLY problem facing GSD or BCs, then I would buy the theory that protection of the breed (by not letting people see the "wrong" color and therefore wanting one) could be accomplished by extirpating all color mutants at birth. As it is, I think the root of the problem lies much, much deeper than that: not breeding for working ability, period. Which North American GSD breeders are already not doing. IF you are a responsible breeder, culling weird colored pups at birth could remove actual working gene combinations you DO want, even if it is not a large chance - but if both parents worked well and that's why you bred them, why take the risk? If you are already destroying the breed with your unethical breeding protocol, then I fail to see how producing a different color line would make things any worse than what you were already doing.

 

In fact, it may actually provide a visible signal to the public so: a) people can identify your (poorly bred) dogs, and thus can avoid them if they want; or :rolleyes: it could provide impetus for a split to get those "junk" dogs out of your registry. Think about if EVERY sport collie was red-tri. It would be MUCH easier to get them to split off and be recognized as "something else" by the ACK than it is when their differences are based only on behavior.

 

Just my 2 (geeky) cents.

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