Shall she stay or go?

[Kyrasmom]

I'm glad you came back and updated a bit. But as Linda said, you still need to think long and hard if you want to keep this dog. You should not keep her out of guilt or try half-heartedly and then give up in a year, causing a bigger dislocation in her life as well as yours and that of your children.

 

Her issues, if we can even call them that, are very fixable and correctable, but do you want to commit to an energetic and interactive dog? I could say, as could many, so many things to make you want to keep her, but that wouldn't be fair. The "what ifs" of others should not influence what's in your heart.

 

So, think about it. You sound very bonded to your GS and that is wonderful.

 

And if you have time, why don't you share a bit of what this girl does right. What would be her strong points. If you decide to keep her, knowing her a little bit more will be useful in giving you some basic aids. And as others have said, a training class would be first on the list, not only is a good learning experience, it's a wonderful bonding experience.

 

Thanks for coming back, I don't think anyone wants to be harsh. I for one admire someone willing to admit they have doubts, getting a dog, or a second dog, can be life changing. And like all life chaning experiences, it can be daunting.

 

Maria

[Meg's mum]

I will tell you a secret. I let myself ask my husband one hundred times between the time I picked Meg out 3 weeks before I brought her home and the day she turned 16 weeks old, "Have we done the right thing for this creature? Did we over reach?" My husband's calm return was always: "She'll be fine, you'll do fine, there is no way in the world I'd give her up."

 

I needed to know that someone had faith in my ability to do this. I'd never had a puppy under 12 months old, human or canine or a dog that hadn't come to me trained. Having always had Border Collie's and having done enormous reading didn't really prepare me for the lived reality of my 'special needs' child.

 

But now, with training and close observation, initmacy and time. I know what most of her looks mean, and her movements and actions. I can tell when she's thristy, or tired, or lonely etc.

 

I have conceeded to the lifestyle changes, control of impulses and made the effort to take temptations out of her way. I have found the balance point between active, social and alone time for her and I know what to do to recover from imbalances.

 

I still have great big challenges out there. But tomorrow she graduates from three weeks of training camp - my shy, willful ADD BC with an accelerating drive to herd. Come Saturday morning my life will start changing again as we figure out what comes next.

 

Your BC is very much like one of your children. She will change your life again and again for the next hopefully 10-14 years. That is what you are signing up for.

[KrisK]

I work in the mornings, and she is an outside dog so apart from odd visits she is alone most the time.

She is an outside ex young farm dog, but because of the heat I invited her in, only for her to pee on greeting me, so out she went.

This is from your initial post...so I can say I'm a bit confused since later on you say she isn't alone. But I'm the first to admit, it's sometimes hard to write down what is often easier said when you're talking directly with someone face to face.

 

That being said, I still get the impression that you really don't feel you have the time it will take to make Sophie a real part of the family and you're feeling somewhat guilty about that.

 

You've shown that you do care about Sophie by coming here to ask but you also said that you got her on an impulse and impulse is not a good way to acquire a BC.

 

As I said before, I've had Cricket for 2 1/2 years and she has issues we are still working on...and I expect to work with her for the rest of her life to overcome these things. If you don't think you have time to make that type of committment for Sophie, I still believe it would be better for her with someone who can.

 

I'll apologize if that sounds harsh, because it's not meant to be but keeping a dog because you are feeling an 'obligation' really does you, your family and the dog a diservice.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I'm sure the decision won't be easy but you need to make a decision that works for you and your family.

[Dog Lady]

Thank you Claire Owen, Meg's mom and a few others for also admitting that the breaking in period for the owners was just as hard as for the dogs.

Krisk- Yes, it is hard for me to get across to 'you' just how I feel and how things are, but here it is:

I work in the mornings from 7.30am until anywhere to 2pm, I take her out before I go to work. A few times I have taken her to work with me, so she has company, dh is my boss Then I am usually out:visiting, shopping, whatever. My "d"husband does not want her indoors, we already have Lucy in doors, he did try to have her out last year, it was horrible she kept barking and I insisted she come in, she always has been, even before he came about! So because Sophie isn't allowed in - she is out, with the garage door open to the yard. Again today I have got some different training videos and plan to try out what I have watched, with patience and lots of TLC, we went to Zamzows and got her a hoof to chew on aswell.

Some of your comments have been harsh, and I get enough of that at home, so please 'type' kinder next time.

[Beth G]

Hhm... at the risk of sounding rude sounds like hubby is part of the problem. Doesn't want the dog inside? I'm not a fan of keeping dogs out side all the time. They are after all pack animals. That could be part of your problem too...she just wants to be with you.

[Lunar]

Well IMO the dog is never going to become a well-adjusted family member if she's kept outdoors and, if that doesn't change, the best option would be to re-home her. Dogs simply need to be near their humans, and BCs even moreso than other breeds, given their tendency towards hyperactivity and "troublemaking" when left to their own devices.

 

I know how it can be difficult to meld the desires of yourself and that of your husband - my DH at least agrees that dogs should be indoors but we have many other arguments over the dog(s). It's definitely not easy.

[prosperia]

You need to bring her inside.

A backyard life is no life for a BC.

Tell hubby where he can shove it! :mad:

 

With the exception of farm dogs who work with their handlers day in and out, I dont know anyone on this board who has succesfully kept their BC happy as an outdoor dog. Thats the truth, plain and simple. (and if there is anyone, Im sure they'll be happy to let you know how they do it)

[Dog Lady]

Prosperia-

To you's who mention to go to obedince training, I am afraid I do not have the funds, hence using library resources, but it'll turn out fine.

I'll try to get Sophie allowed in, fingers crossed!

[KrisK]

If I've read what you posted correctly, it appears as though you have a 'recently' blended family. I'm assuming Lucy is your GS..and she's 16 years old? It sounds as though dh isn't really a 'dog' person.

I'm going to try to tread lightly here and I'm trying to 'type' as kindly as I can. If your DH was willing to have your old girl displaced by putting her outside (please correct me if I've read this incorrectly) then as much as you may want Sophie in your life...it's not likely going to work and her best interests and YOURS won't be served. It sounds like Sophie's presence could become a continual 'bone of contention' between you and your DH and that's just not good for anyone,..you, your kids, your dh and Sophie.

My dh is fond of our dogs, but he doesn't participate as much in their training as I do..however he has no problem with them being in the house as part of the family.

It sounds like there's a whole lot of other things going on....and adding Sophie into the mix won't help much.

Good luck....and I mean that sincerely.

[Dog Lady]

You know what?? This was a cry for help, not critisism. I had no intention in getting a dog just a while, I am aware that "dogs are for life", I just am at my wits end, with three kids, an elder son that comes and goes-hardly ever at home apart from to raid the cupboards and change clothes, a very bad back from lifting heavy stuff, a dislocated knee that Sophie keeps bashing into, and a very happy marriage!!? I wanted a companion for my older dog, have wanted one for years, now went ahead and got one,free from paper ad, and wanted a furry friend for me, as Lucy sleeps lots. Had a rabbit which died recently.

BYT, Lucy is already sleeping by the side of my bed, (much to hubbies horror), and the nr 4 yr old is still in a crib at the end of our bed!! So no room for anypet else!

Please try to be a bit more compassionate, please.

[smileyzookie]

I have to second Kris. A BC (none that I know of) isnt happy being left outside basically as an outcast. If you truly care about the dogs best intrest, in my opinion, you should allow her the chance to be in a home where she isnt outside. BC's crave their humans companionship. We got Riven with the full intent of putting her outside and not letting her be indoor. It wasnt until I came across this board we decided to let her be indoors. We are moving because of her. We made sacrifices to make sure she is happy and that we did all we could to better her life. (I should point out here that my husband and I both were in agreement that we wanted what was best for the dog.)

 

This dog doesnt deserve to be a social outcast. Attention outside here and there when you can spare it isnt enough. They NEED companionship, and that means being inside. I dont necessarily pander to Riven all day but she does follow me around the house. She sits at my feet, lays with me, ect. That is what BC's need. If you cant do this, because of your hubby, or just not enough time or whatever, you should think of the dog and let it be given a chance for the surroundings she needs.

 

Sorry if I sound cruel, I just really feel for this poor dog. She doesnt deserve to be left outside for not knowing any better. She needs training and someone with the ability to train her. Im not saying that isnt you, but if DH wont even let her inside I dont see how you can possibly spend enough time to bond with her.

 

You keep asking us to be compassionate. We are being compassionate. We're trying to help you realize this pup shouldnt be outside. It has nothing to do with us second guessing your marriage, money or anything else. We are just trying to help you understand how BC's are and why she's behaving like this. This really isnt about criticizing you or bashing you. Its about explaining truthfully what is going on with Sophie and how to remedy it.

[Guest amylobdell24]

com?pas?sion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (km-pshn)

n.

Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.

 

I think most replies have been in the compassionate interest of your dog, if not your personal situation - it's a BC board! There's a huge amount of successful Border Collie owner years on this board - they know what makes these dogs tick. They have that "deep awareness" of the needs of a BC - and a sincere wish to see those needs fulfilled. I don't think anyone intends to be unkind to you, but they can't give you the help you need if you're not in a situation to provide the type of evironment required to make their suggestions feasible. They are trying to help you to be compassionate to your own dog and realize why she is behaving the way you describe.

[Dog Lady]

Smileyzookie-"We got Riven with the full intent of putting her outside and not letting her be indoor. It wasnt until I came across this board we decided to let her be indoors."

When I spoke to the previous owner of Sophie, the lady said the dog stayed outside, which suited us. But now I too am learning different.

[smileyzookie]

Thats great that you are realizing that but, realistically what can you or will you do about it? (that sentence comes off way more critical than I mean it to be). If you cant have her indoors either because you dont have room, or hubby wont like it or whatever reason, it REALLY is best that she be rehomed. Im sorry, I know that isnt what you want to hear, but BC's thrive on human companionship. I do wish you all the best, I really hope you can compromise with hubby and let her in.

[bc friend]

Your 8:32 posting sounded like life has you somewhat overwhelmed right now and a bc may simply be too much. As almost everyone on the board will agree, bc's are not easy dogs to live with - their breeding is for a very active lifestyle. IMO, the chances of Sophie settling for an occasional (or even daily) walk, a little time in the backyard with the family, and playing with a 16 yo dog is next to nil. She will be unhappy and so will you. If you got her to be a companion to your older GS, you may want to seriously consider rehoming her and finding an easier less active dog although very few rescues or even animal sheleters will let you adopt a dog you are not going to keep in the house.

[Jodi]

"Well IMO the dog is never going to become a well-adjusted family member if she's kept outdoors and, if that doesn't change, the best option would be to re-home her.

I couldn't disagree more. This would then assume that every dog that's kept indoors is well-adjusted. Training, socialization, and attention is what makes for a well-adjusted dog. Yes, if the dog is left outside all the time with no human interaction and basically left to its own devices, it's a huge problem. However, I met Dog Lady and Sophie last week, along with Dog Lady's three young boys. I'd venture to guess that Sophie is not being left to her own devices for any unreasonable length of time. However, I get the impression that this wasn't the case prior to Dog Lady getting her.

 

In my non-professional opinion, having met Sophie, I'd say that all she needs is some basic obedience, a bit of leash training, some boundaries, and some crate training. I put her on stock and she showed some nice, natural talent. With a little bit of adjustment, I think she'll fit in very well.

 

Dog Lady, like I said (apart from this last week) Tuesday evenings work for me. And if you do decide to rehome her, there's no shame in that, and I can help you. I have room to take her, and the connections to find her a good home. I don't think returning her to where she came from would be an ideal situation for her.

 

Jodi

[Kyrasmom]

Quite honestly, it just sounds like you've got a bit too much on your plate, your heart may be saying one thing, but the reality is that maybe it just can't be.

 

I'll try a different approach, if you've got a happy marriage, then you need to enrich that. By forcing a dog onto someone who doesn't want one or isn't used to living with one, you might be hurting him as well. We all make compromises in relationships, he let your 16 GS into your home but maybe he's not ready to be a BC dad. It's not something I can personally relate to but I don't expect everyone to be a dog nut.

 

And BC's are basically kids for more years than most dogs, they test you, they need you, they learn the things you don't want them to learn if you don't teach them something more fun.

 

I rescue a lot of dogs, and when I place them, I won't place them unless the entire family is on board because it's the best thing for the dog...and the family.

 

Because the bottom line of what Sophie needs from you is: consistency, companionship, training, and time. She won't get that if she can't be a part of your family. To learn how to behave in the house, she needs to be in the house. She needs to be able to make a mistake and be corrected but not vanquished.

 

But can you give her that and still meet your family's needs. My husband knows he comes second (it's a running joke) but very basically true. and I also come second. First come the needs of those we chose to bring into our lives, and then come our own.

 

As for options: when we place puppies, we are adament about a "safe puppy haven" in the home. A room where they can play, be safe, have accidents, and still not be damaging to property. There have to be happy moments to build towards a training relationship. Which is why a crate would be a good tool for housebreaking Sophie...but only a tool, not a replacement for training.

 

If she pulls on a leash, you can try a Gentle Leader or Halti, choke collars are useless at best and dangerous if you don't know how to use them. Have some treats, get her looking to you for her next move, reward what she does right. Get her to think and focus. I have to say, there is nothing more endearing than a BC focusing on you as if to say, "what next?" Chances are, she's insecure and not well socialized.

 

It's all doable, and I realize you may want to do it, but it sounds as if the timing is not quite right. But again, we can only go on what you write here so it's a hard call.

 

And I don't think anyone has been unduly harsh, the concern for Sophie has been evident, as has been the very practical advice that perhaps, it's not a win/win even though you're obviously trying.

 

Maria

[AK dog doc]

I don't think people are trying to criticize you. I think they're trying to answer your questions, but not giving you the answers you want to hear. I think you have mixed feelings about this and I also think that you have your hands already quite full. You sound overwhelmed and frazzled. I'm sorry about that, and we've all been there and can sympathise - but I'm not sure that that's the best place to be if you're adding another dog to the family, PARTICULARLY one of a breed which needs more to do than the average dog.

 

Again: APOLOGIZING FOR BEING BLUNT, but realistically it does not sound like this dog is a good fit for you at this time.

 

If you have a lifestyle which means the dog needs to be outdoors, so be it. But that's not an appropriate lifestyle for a BC, and people are telling you that directly. That's not meant as a criticism, it's meant as a point of information. There is another life in the balance, one which is at your mercy - so out of fairness to that life, you MUST consider the bald facts of the situation as it stands. It is completely unfair to do otherwise, since it will be the dog who pays for it in the end if you do not. (You might pay for it, too, but you have a choice in the matter, and the dog doesn't.)

 

Also - and this IS blunt, but necessary (so I'll apologise if it hurts your feelings, but you need to consider this) - if you can't afford to do obedience training, can you afford to have the dog? Whether or not you choose to train on your own or through a class is not the issue I'm concerned with here; it's your statement that you can't afford it. It's your responsibility to provide for the dog, and that means food, shelter, medical care, training, and whatever else is needed. If she keeps eating shoes (etc), there are going to be bills associated with it - replacement shoes and probably vet bills. If you move the shoes out of the way but don't provide her with something else to do, she'll find something else to destroy out of boredom, and that might be even more expensive. Are these expenses you are prepared and willing to take on?

 

The non-monetary expenses of having this dog should be considered as well, and those include the time and resources to train and integrate her to your household. If your attentions are as divided as they seem from your posts, this might not be the right time for you to add a high-energy and attention-intensive dog to your household.

 

If you were my client, walked into my clinic and told me that you were at your wit's end, had some injuries including a bad knee and a bad back, had several children including one about to enter the "dreaded" and labor-intensive 2-year-old zone, and then told me you were thinking of getting a 2 year old BC, I would strongly urge you to reconsider. If you came in and told me all that AND that you'd already gotten a 2 year old BC which had had little prior training, that you were frustrated with how it'd gone in the first three weeks, and that you doubted you had the time to keep the dog occupied and active enough, I would first suggest obedience training. If you said you couldn't afford it, I'd suggest strongly considering re-homing the dog. This is what HAS been suggested to you, and there's good reason for it. I gather from your response that you feel attacked and don't want to hear that this dog might be better off elsewhere - but answering your questions is not meant as an attack, but as a transfer of information, and giving the opinion that this is not the best fit for you, while perhaps not what you want to hear, IS what you asked us for. I'm sorry if it isn't the opinion you had hoped to hear.

 

I don't think anyone is trying to tell you you've been a bad dog owner in the past or that you've abused the GS that you already have or anything of that sort. I think what they're trying to tell you is that you MAY not be a good owner for a BC - and that doesn't make you a bad person or a bad dog owner, but it MIGHT make you a bad fit FOR THIS DOG AT THIS TIME. Failing to acknowledge that, or failing to rectify it and keeping the dog anyway, is NOT being a good owner. If you CAN'T rectify it, okay, we all understand that that happens and it doesn't make you a bad person. But don't keep the dog if you can't provide her an appropriate lifestyle FOR HER SPECIFICALLY, when there are others who can.

 

I'm sorry if this makes you feel attacked, but you've asked for opinions and been given them, and you've asked for and been offered advice which you say you can't take for whatever reason. We don't think that not being able to follow the advice (for whatever reason) makes you a bad person. We think it might make you the wrong owner for this dog. Those are two very different things.

 

Just as a BTW, may I ask why you want a companion for your older dog? Not every older dog wants a new dog around, and of those who do, not all of them want a bouncy young BC to hassle and annoy them (and a young BC by its very nature tends not to be a restful companion for an older dog.)

 

Anyway, thanks for clarifying your original post. There was a lot of information not evident in that post, and while it clarifies your situation considerably, I still question whether this is the right dog for you right now. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but that's my opinion.

[Joe Anne]

Dog Lady, As a professional trainer and Mom of BC's (past and present) I would simply like to add to much of what has been said, and please know I'm not meaning to be critical or harsh.

Just like everyone else has said, this dog MUST, have training, with lots of mental and physical stimulation. A bored dog is a destructive dog, and no more so than our very intelligent BC's.

Sounds to me like Jodi, is offering a very helpful hand, and several possible solutions, in either training or finding Miss Sophie a home where she will be afforded the training and companionship needed, which sound like that would be best for HER.

Please don't turn away from these boards. No one is pointing a finger at a Mom of a 16 yr. old dog for heaven's sake. You must have done right by her to be 16 yrs old and still going! A dog dosen't live to be that ripe old age, without being loved and taken care of!! so please realize, that what is being said is.... it's not that your intentions of giving this dog a home is being questioned, you are obviously a caring person and a dog lover. But think about this... Most, any mother, be it the mother of a human child, or a dog "child", wants what is best for that child. I would give everything I have, my life, my home, my pride, and drop to my knees and humble myself to whomever, to make sure my dog or human child lived the best possible fulfilled, healthy and happy life. That is what a mother does...

Let Jodi, help ya! sounds like she is offering a way to help both you and Sophie for the best outcome!

Also, please really listen to what AK Dog Doc is saying. We all very much count on the Docs advice here. Especially the part of a 16 yr old dog and a 2 y/o BC as a companion!

Huh! that would be like my 7 yr old grandson coming to live with me when he was about 2! I may be able to survive now that he is 7, but even that would prob take this grandma over the edge... whew! You will be there someday, picture yourself at a ripe old age of say 80, having a 2 yr old running around all day (not your choice!)... grabbing at ya, getting in your face, your stuff, and won't take a hint at "leave me alone, kid"!

:eek:

I think your original question was,:Shall she stay or go? (your words, your ?), my suggested answer.. is she goes, with loving help from a BC rescue person/organization, that know's how and where to place a Border Collie. As hard as it may be, I think you know in your heart that is the right thing to do, or you wouldn't have asked the question

:confused:

Good Luck and peace be with you and your decision.

[KrisK]

Dog Lady, As someone who has lived through a lot of life changing events, from single parenthood, to divorce, to job loss, and remarriage, and moving, I can relate to some of what you are going through.

 

That being said, and at the risk of repeating myself, you need to step back and take a good hard look at what is right for your family at this moment...and Sophie, as much as you might want her to be there...doesn't sound like a good fit right now.

That is the cold hard truth. It is not a criticism, of you or your life, or anything. It is simply the way it is.

You've asked the question....you've been given answers...now you have to decide.

AK dog doc, knows her stuff....and she's telling you like it is.

I've treaded as lightly as I could...

[Carson Crazies]

Well, it hasn't been but 2-1/2 years since I wound up with a Border Collie (mix) puppy that I didn't know was a Border Collie until she was with us for a few weeks. Not only did I have NO idea what to do with a puppy, but I had NO idea what a Border Collie was. I remember very, VERY well those first few months. OK, the first year if I'm honest. I asked myself many times, "What have I gotten myself into?" or told myself "I don't think this is going to work", or even "I can't take any more". I kept waiting for her to change.

 

Granted she was a tough puppy. Active, busy, and always finding SOMETHING to do to get herself into trouble - but lets be honest here - I let her get into stuff by either not giving her something to do, or not confining her when I should have. What I finally figured out was this: rather than waiting for her to "grow up" or "change", I was the one who needed to grow up and change. Not so much grow up as far as human maturity goes, but grow up in my dog handling views and skills. I was the one who needed to change.

 

It was painful. Painful to realize after the fact that in many ways I had failed my dog. I failed her in getting her the exercise she needed. I failed her by missing out on some of the socialization she needed. I failed her by letting her unnecessarily form bad habits. I failed her because I let her run amock, and then resented her for it.

 

So, I had to change. It wasn't easy. But, we've found peace this dog and I. I actually like her finally. She's actually a pretty darned neat little dog. She has a few screws a little loose, and I'll never know really how much was my fault, and how much of it was her pathetically bad breeding. That's neither here nor there though.

 

Know what I learned during this process? I learned that I LOVE Border Collies. In the process I also learned that I LOVE sheep. I even made some new friends too! All in all a good deal. I made the committment to doing right by this dog, and to apply the head knowledge I had into ACTION and it was what all of us involved needed.

 

So, I think sometimes we find ourselves in a situation where we are frustrated, angry, resentful, and almost desperate because we didn't ASK for it... but there it is. Then we have to decide - what are we going to do about it? I (personally) had three choices:

 

1. Step up to the plate

2. Let someone else take the ball

3. Leave the situation be, and continue failing ALL of us.

 

There are many options here Dog Lady. All of that being said, sometimes stepping up to the plate means changing yourself. Sometimes stepping up to the plate means letting the dog go. I can't tell you what you need to do here, but I think if you look back over these threads, the answer will be obvious to you. However, all hope is not lost. Like many others have said, once you decide what your priorities are, there are people here who care and will be more than happy to help you!

[Melody]

There has been some good advice given I think, I can understand you may not like some of it but sometimes good advice is hard to give cos it hurts people feelings.

 

It does sound like you love your doggie..and I think you are on the way to cracking the first step, which is to allow the dog to live properly and happily with you... indoors

 

I am new to B.C's with our new pup but one thing I know for sure already, he is a great companion throughout the day ... ok he attacks me alot LOL (playfully and intinctively with his nips and herds hehehe)

 

Good luck

[Meg's mum]

Dog Lady. I've also been on the harsh end of these finest of folks as I went through the learning process and quite frankly I was even rebuked for not having a high enough "emotional quotient" or thick enough skin to let it roll off my back. Its been a long time since I've felt quite so....well....adolescent.

 

But here lies passion and wisdom so put up with it till you get this resolved and all will go well. If you find your path to fulfilling Sophie's needs as a family then I you'll realize that toughness here is born of love for your dog.

 

What concerns me is your husband and child. My DH is 100% on board with our BC life and I don't have a young child. I brought my husband and kids into the process six months before I decided to find a BC again. I read them BC horror stories and piled books in their laps and forced them to read web articles and this board.

 

Please do some soul searching with your husband and if he is not on board with this, you may wish to consider another rabbit. WE don't let rabbits in the house EVER. Dozens of rabbits over a decade led to $60,000 in remodeling on my husband's house before I could move in.

[Dixie_Girl]

Originally posted by Meg's mum:

you may wish to consider another rabbit.

So, what are you fixing for supper? Got rabbit on the mind? Or did I miss something?

[Joe Anne]

Dog Lady...are you still with us???